- - ---a perfect control setup!

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:28 am

What's yours?
Post your idea and if it's good and different i'll remake it into a 3d model, like the one above, and post it.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:41 am

So... out of curiosity... How do you slide and pulse the afterburner at the same time? Heck, how do you slide and USE the afterburner with that setup? Until you fix that, you will be the slowest kid on the block. It looks like your thumbs come off the slide stick to afterburn. Your config is horridly broken and I can't figure out how to fix it by looking at your diagram. Maybe add in foot pedals.

Isaac wrote:What's your idea of a perfect control setup?

Allow me to quote Suncho:

Suncho (on mouse-type configs) wrote:If you want to reach your full potential, use something like this:

There are 9 things you need to be able to do at once in D3:

1. 1st axis
2. 2nd axis
3. 3rd axis
4. 4th axis
5. 5th axis
6. 6th axis
7. Fire primary weapon
8. Fire secondary weapon
9. Use afterburner

Items 1-6 (type 1) each require either a physical range of motion or two buttons/keys. Items 7-9 (type 2) each only require one key/button.

The mouse takes care of two type 1 items by moving the mouse and two type 2 items with the two buttons.

This leaves 4 type 1 items and 1 type 2 item for the keyboard. You have 4 fingers and a thumb to work with. Assign each finger a type 1 item with 2 keys. Assign the thumb the remaining type 1 item with 1 key or the spacebar.

A good example config is:
Yaw (turn left/right): Mouse left/right
Pitch (turn up/down): Mouse up/down
Fire Primaries: Left Mouse Button
Fire Secondaries: Right Mouse Button
Bank Left/Right: Pinky Finger (A/Z)
Slide Up/Down: Ring Finger (S/X)
Move Forward/Back: Middle Finger (D/C)
Slide Left/Right: Index Finger (F/V)
Afterburner: Thumb (Spacebar)

This config allows you to do all chording with the 3 middle fingers of your left hand. The rest of the things in the config are less combat-critical.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:31 am

I have a similar setup to your gamepad (on a Thrustmaster Firestorm Dual Power), except I've remapped the buttons a bit differently. Also, it has four triggers on the top like yours, but an additional two on the bottom.

I use the player's top left (right on your breakdown picture) trigger for primary fire like you chose, but I use the right one for afterburner, since I found that it's used much more often than secondaries.

I also used my way bottom triggers for aft/reverse like you did as well. Like I already said, I've got another set of triggers between them, but they aren't as useful since I have to take my pointer fingers off of the top ones to use the middle ones, so I assigned bombs and inventory to them IIRC.

I use the button on the left analogue stick for secondaries, since it still provides easy access without removing my fingers from anything, but I don't think I'd feel comfortable using these analogue stick buttons for anything but the occasional use, so I don't use the right stick button for anything.

Then I lump flares, headlight, and what not to the buttons on the right, and I have rolling on the digital pad left-right and primary-secondary autoselect on the top-bottom.

All and all, it's very similar to your setup, but the fundamental differences are that I did the afterburner, secondaries, and rolling differently. Effectively, afterburnering seems much more easy on my setup, whereas rolling is much more easy on yours. Unfortunately, we can't do it all without removing our fingers from something integral.

edit: This has got me thinking... maybe it would be better to use my middle set of triggers for rolling instead (depending on which way I rolled, I either wouldn't be able to fire or afterburner at the same time, not that I roll all that often either, but this seems better than sacrificing turning), and then just throw bombs onto the buttons on the right.

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:56 am

To WarAdvocat,
I guess it depends on what your fingers can do. I
have no problem keeping a finger on the after burner at all times. Of cours i have crazy bendy fingers from playing piano.

In fact i can drop mines and shoot flares while i afterburn and slide... while drinking a coke. :p I'll remake that setup in 3d you've posted as your perfect setup.

To Jeff250,
I can still use the afterburner all the time with my current setup but now that i've heard you say you use the afterburner more than the secondaries i think i'll switch the two. Thx!

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:03 am

No that's SUNCHO's SUGGESTED setup, don't give me credit for that config. I don't want it. There's a reason I used the quotation tag.

I was quoting him for general principles

I'd be interested in seeing how you manage to slide and afterburn at the same time. Specifically I'd like to see how you manage to keep 2 slide axes going simultaneous with rapidly tapping the afterburner button.

Video or photos please.

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:09 am

lol ok then i'll have it be under his name...
And i'll see what i can do with a video or pic.. i'll probably just do a photoshop illustration...

Floyd · Post by **Floyd** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:13 am

keyboard and 3D pro. you always have to be able to do everything at once, which doesn't seem so at your picture.
please describe your finger usage for the buttons.
i can hardly imagine how you use your thumb for sliding and AB at the same time.
also, a thumb joystick may be faster and less endangered in getting cracked, because less force is applied instead of using the whole hand.

but it can't be more accurate at the same time, since the leverage is significantly shorter. if this is still the case from your experience, it may be rather due to the lack of precision of your previous joystick, compared to them thumbsticks on the pad.

afterall, i guess using a regular joystick and only 3 keys at the keyboard provides a much lower threat of getting bent fingers

edit:
keyboard config: (A,S,D)=(forward, backward, AB)
stick config: cooliehat for sliding, XY for pitch and yaw, R for banking. trigger for primary fire, button under hat switch for secondary fire.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:09 pm

If you can't turn, slide, move forward and backward, afterburn, and fire all your weapons without moving your hands from the default comfortable control position, your config is less then optimal.

Also, if you have to bend your fingers in odd or uncomfortable ways to play it will reduce the effectiveness of your controls. I am able to completely control my movement and fire both weapon banks instantly from a resting position on my controls.

Honestly I think controling descent is more then can be done with a gamepad, there are too many things that need to be done instantly.

My config for reference:
Left hand:
A, S, D+F = Headlight, Energy ---> Shield Converter, Flare
Z, X, C = Reverse, Forward, Afterburner
Space = Fire Secondary

Right hand (SideWinder Precision Pro):
Trigger = Fire Primary
X, Y = Turn Up/Down/Left/Right
R (Twist or Rudder) = Bank Left/Right
Hat Switch = Slide Up/Down/Left/Right

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:02 pm

Setup for Descent 3
FILEZ

click the pics for each layout

Unix · Post by **Unix** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:10 pm

★■◆● bubb, that's a serious setup.

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:31 pm

rocks with flight simz

AceCombat · Post by **AceCombat** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:33 pm

mine is not that advanced, but its a HOTAS just like bubba's.

and check PM's bubba

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:49 pm

Krom wrote:If you can't turn, slide, move forward and backward, afterburn, and fire all your weapons without moving your hands from the default comfortable control position, your config is less then optimal.

Also, if you have to bend your fingers in odd or uncomfortable ways to play it will reduce the effectiveness of your controls. I am able to completely control my movement and fire both weapon banks instantly from a resting position on my controls.

Honestly I think controling descent is more then can be done with a gamepad, there are too many things that need to be done instantly.

My config for reference:
Left hand:
A, S, D+F = Headlight, Energy ---> Shield Converter, Flare
Z, X, C = Reverse, Forward, Afterburner
Space = Fire Secondary

Right hand (SideWinder Precision Pro):
Trigger = Fire Primary
X, Y = Turn Up/Down/Left/Right
R (Twist or Rudder) = Bank Left/Right
Hat Switch = Slide Up/Down/Left/Right

Ah! but i move freely and afterburn at any time with my pointer finger. my middle fingers control the other stuff.

Unix wrote:**** bubb, that's a serious setup.

yeah! Me want!! *drooll.....*

BUBBALOU wrote: Setup for Descent 3
FILEZ

click the pics for each layout

*drooll again.. *

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:36 pm

I just grabbed my PSX controller and messed with it for a while...You're shortchanging yourself badly using that controller. I don't know how to fix it but what you're doing is silly. You can't keep all your fingers on the right buttons all the time, or if you do you're in a very awkward position. Can you honestly say that you can comfortably tap the afterburner button rapidly for long periods of time?

HEH.. at least you're not like Bettina. I believe her config didn't allow her to slide in certain directions. EVER.

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:13 pm

WarAdvocat wrote:I just grabbed my PSX controller and messed with it for a while...You're shortchanging yourself badly using that controller. I don't know how to fix it but what you're doing is silly. You can't keep all your fingers on the right buttons all the time, or if you do you're in a very awkward position. Can you honestly say that you can comfortably tap the afterburner button rapidly for long periods of time?

HEH.. at least you're not like Bettina. I believe her config didn't allow her to slide in certain directions. EVER.

even with a Keyboard/joystick set up i think i can straif and aim better with my control setup. Even with that keyboard/joystick setup you dont have all your fingers on everything at the same time.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:40 pm

Sorry for criticizing your setup. I saw some sub-optimal quirks & I was trying to help. I'm sure you can strafe and aim adequately with your current setup.

Incidentally, my setup (which I haven't shared), is pretty similar to what Krom uses. I have a couple things moved around to suit my preferences, but it's similar, and allows me to chord in any possible direction while firing weapons and rapidly pulsing afterburner...without contorting my hands too terribly awkwardly.

Of course, my execution of the control inputs is probably not as good as Krom's.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:44 pm

even with a Keyboard/joystick set up i think i can straif and aim better with my control setup. Even with that keyboard/joystick setup you dont have all your fingers on everything at the same time.

Yes he does.

Here's mine:

2 keyboards: 1 for hands, 1 for feet

a = primary (pinky)
s = afterburner (ring)
d = forward (middle)
f = backward (index)
space = secondary (thumb)
b = slide left (left big toe)
down arrow = slide right (right big toe)

Joystick:
Trigger = Slide Up (index)
Button 2 = Slide Down (thumb)
Twist = Bank
X-Axis = Heading
Y-Axis = Pitch

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:18 pm

Omfg suncho. You win.

WarAvdvocat... Donâ??t EVER apologies to me, especially when we're debating, descent interface. As for comfort, I donâ??t have any problem accessing the afterburner but Jeff250 made me realize that I use the afterburner more than I use my missiles. Iâ??ve since switched their buttons around, and now I think I can kill anything with a health bar, in Descent.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:16 am

Do you play multiplayer ?

I'm running one of the basic configs w/ a 3D Pro stick plus a "left hand controller" (basically a programmable keypad) -- allows me to move on all 6 axis at the same time while shooting prim & sec and working the AB button..

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:17 am

I'm almost tempted to play a little bit again... almost.

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:36 am

Sure Iâ??d love to fight anyone in a good old samurai style descent dual. *ninja kicks*

But my goal of this thread was to see what would be the idol consol control for descent, and design it. Iâ??m still sketching (whisper) I HAVE NO LIFE (/whisper)

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:14 am

Suncho- your config is wierd.

Matrix · Post by **Matrix** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:02 am

WarAdvocat wrote:Suncho- your config is wierd.

2x

I dunno how the sh1t u even move with that let alone play like you do

elliotm · Post by **elliotm** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:19 am

I use dual joysticks.
At the moment, A Logitech 3D Extreme(being warrantied, today) and a CH Flightstick.

3D Extreme
x-axis = heading
y-axis = pitch
hat = slide
trigger= primary wep
3 buttons on top set for fusion, md, chaff
some buttons on the base set for taunt macros

Flightstick
x-axis = bank/roll
y-axis = accel/decel
trigger= afterburner
hat = primary/secondary cycle and rear view
3 buttons on top set for flare, headlight, secondary wep

keyboard = pretty much just typing

framerate about 55 avg, I believe this to be the biggest bottleneck in my performance growth.

It would be nice if one of the sticks hat a pinky button...better yet, both! Currently I have to take my thumb off the hat to quick switch to fusion or md...hmm, could swap the fusion/md with the pri/sec cycling...hmm...

Suncho really plays with his big toe?

EDIT: I'm looking into modding my CH Fighterstick to perfection to replace the Extreme 3D and also have a Sidewinder 3D Pro shipping in I won off ebay. =D

FunkyStickman · Post by **FunkyStickman** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:20 am

I absolutely LOVE my playstation dual analog stick(s). It allows me to do 10 or more things at once, without moving my hand position.

With this, the only thing I can't do is reverse and rearview at the same time (which is okay, rearview is toggle-able), and fire secondarires/flares at the same time. I can kinda roll while doing everything else, but I rarely use it. I may wind up swapping the AB and rearview buttons, since you can't AB in reverse anyway.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:01 pm

As I recently posted in a PD thread, I'm probably one of only a few people out there who uses an all-joystick config. A long time ago, I heard a piece of advice saying that one could achieve better joystick control by resting the stick's base in your lap; I've been playing that way ever since in every game that's required a joystick. I use the following config with both my Sidewinder 3D Pro and my Saitek Cyborg Evo (although the latter requires me to place a book beneath it in order to hold it steady on my lap):

Turning, pitching, and rolling: X, Y, and Z axes, respectively
Forward/back: throttle, with my left hand (Some people have asked me if this presents difficulties with switching quickly from one to the other; since the 3D Pro's throttle is so slack, I'm able to do it just about as quickly as using the keyboard. Although the Evo's may be slightly slower, I haven't found too many situations where a slightly quicker transfer would have prevented me from dying anyway; besides, I can always use a quick afterburner pulse to boost my way forward.)
Sliding: hat switch (Again, some people may say that it isn't good for sliding, but I find it much more natural than fumbling with a keyboard. And I will never understand how people can abuse their sticks enough to break these; my 3D Pro's at least seven years old, and my hat switch is still as good as the day I got it.

)
Primary: trigger
Secondary: button below hat switch
Afterburner: base button closest to throttle; triggered by left hand
Bombs, flares, etc: other stick and base buttons

The only thing I use the keyboard for at the moment is typing and switching weapons. My setup may not be the most efficient, and I'd expect that most veteran Descenters wouldn't like it, but it's how I've played Descent for a very long time, and I'm not going to change it. I daresay that I've improved quite a bit from when I first started playing, even though there's still lots of room for improvement.

P.S. Speaking of players who use their feet, I've met a pilot during a few of the D2 Revivals (he goes by the name of Toes in-game) who flies almost entirely with his feet. Apparently, he'd had one of his arms amputated at an early age. It didn't seem to hinder him too much, though, as he was still able to fly circles around most of the other players.

AceCombat · Post by **AceCombat** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:45 pm

FunkyStickman wrote:

"buttbombs" <-- LOL!!

i love any HOTAS setup. allows me to have at least 7-10 buttons and i dont need the KB unless i need to type. and mouse only when fiddling with the menus

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:18 pm

Alright, I've switched things around a tad for easier rolling, and I've also decided to join the picture-boasting Cool Peoples Club.

The "nothing"'s are either unused, or insignificant enough such that I can't remember what's mapped to them.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:33 pm

Isaac wrote:In fact small thumb joysticks might be more accurate and quick than the traditional kind.

More accurate? Probably not with aiming--there just isn't as much room to move compared to a joystick. They do have the advantage of analogue sliding though, which can help with aiming and other things.

More quick? Most probably. I think that they are definitely more responsive, especially in twich-type combat.

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:55 pm

funkystickman had to hijack your pic and show off my ps1 setup for that controller

FunkyStickman · Post by **FunkyStickman** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:58 am

We've got a few commonalities there... I'll have to set up a pilot with your config and see how it works.

Good job photoshopping it, too!

I should have left all the sippy cups on the table in the background... LOL

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:31 am

Top Gun wrote: And I will never understand how people can abuse their sticks enough to break these [Hat Switches]; my 3D Pro's at least seven years old, and my hat switch is still as good as the day I got it. )

The 3D pro hat switch's physical design is a lot sturdier than the Precision Pro's and Precision 2's, where the pivot points were made out of a piece of brittle plastic thinner than most guitar picks, but the micro switches themselves have a tendency to fail, as well as bend away in their mounting.

If you've used the same stick for 7 years, I'm guessing you have fairly low usage on it, and you probably don't fly hard enough when you do use it.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:59 pm

I'll admit that the usage is rather low, but I don't understand what "playing hard" has to do with anything. I look at it this way: to move the hat switch far enough in any direction so that it registers in-game, it only has to travel a few millimeters, and I doubt I'm putting more than a few ounces of force on it. That's all that's needed. Anything more is just wasted effort and runs the risk of breaking the stick, which so many people seem to do. When I hear about people snapping sticks, I feel as though they must be treating them far too viciously. I'll be the first to admit that Descent is probably the single-most demanding game for a control device ever created, but that's no excuse for applying unnecessary amounts of force. I've always taken a specific approach to playing games, whether they use a mouse, a keyboard, a joystick, a PS2 controller, or even an Atari control stick: a light and dexterous touch goes a lot farther than mashing the buttons. I used to force down the B button and physically turn the controller when playing Super Mario Kart, but I stopped doing that when I was about ten.

I know that, for me at least, being efficient in my controller movements and never applying more force than what is necessary works a lot better than going overboard with things, not to mention the money it saves me on not having to buy replacement controllers. The only controller I've ever broken was a PS2 one, and that's because they're much flimsier than my original PS1 dual shocks that have been going strong for seven years (not to mention the fact that I got pissed off at Madden, which absoutely sucks anyway

).

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:14 pm

I've gone through a half dozen Precision Pro joysticks till I bought over 100 spare switches for the hats. I opened up the inside of switches that didn't work anymore, and it was rather easy to see why they didn't work anymore. Inside the switch is a small metal disk that is warped like a bubble, the switch closes when the middle of the disk is pushed down on to the contact. The worn out switches I had were all the same, the center of the disk had a hole in it where it should have been contacting. This is not an excessive force issue; they just plain wear out from metal fatigue. Or it could be over voltage since they also had what looked like a burn mark on the bottom, but I doubt that the engineers were that stupid.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:55 am

First off, what Krom said. I've had buttons go bad on controllers far too often. I should look into a repair-oriented approach, rather than a reactive, ebaying stance.

Top Gun wrote:I've always taken a specific approach to playing games, whether they use a mouse, a keyboard, a joystick, a PS2 controller, or even an Atari control stick: a light and dexterous touch goes a lot farther than mashing the buttons.

heh. Yep. That's my theory too! The downfall for me is when I'm playing an intense game, and something surprises me...all bets are off. Things tend to happen rather abruptly under those circumstances. I've been known to react... umm... explosively. I've come close to falling out of my chair on occasion. I've pushed hat switches THROUGH their pivot points on Precision 2 sticks... It goes something like this:

>!!!!GAH!!!!< {{<crunch>}}

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:07 pm

Keyboard:

A - Forward
Z - Reverse
Space - Fire secondary
CTRL - TS2 "Push to talk" toggle

Joystick (Logitech Wingman Strike Force 3D) (Seen here)
B1 - Fire primary
B2 - Fire flare
B3 - Drop bomb
B4 - Afterburner
Hat1 - Sliding
Hat2 - Unused for Descent
Twist - Roll

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:13 pm

WarAdvocat wrote:heh. Yep. That's my theory too! The downfall for me is when I'm playing an intense game, and something surprises me...all bets are off. Things tend to happen rather abruptly under those circumstances. I've been known to react... umm... explosively. I've come close to falling out of my chair on occasion. I've pushed hat switches THROUGH their pivot points on Precision 2 sticks... It goes something like this:

>!!!!GAH!!!!< {{<crunch>}}

Hehe, that reminds me of a certain point in the game FreeSpace 2 that gained notoriety because of causing players to have that exact same reaction.

If you've ever played FS2, it's at the start of the mission "Into the Lion's Den." If not, just imagine, as soon as the mission loads, a massive capital ship, a few million times the size of your fighter, coming at you at several hundred meters per second, while one of your wingmates suddenly screams at you at the top of his lungs to get the hell out of the way. Suffice it to say that a lot of joysticks, keyboards, desks, etc. were broken at the time of this event, not to mention the near loss of control of bodily functions.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:52 pm

Hahaha, yeah that was great "DIVE DIVE DIVE! HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOT!" I think it got me the first time tho.

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:55 pm

T H E B A L L

Ok! What do you think? It's like holding a softball (about 4"x4"x4").
Well, here they are!

Here are the thumb 'sliding pads'. They'll center if released and they're also buttons.

I know it looks weird and problematic but i placed the buttons based on how comfortably bend. I made a hand out of geometric shapes and bound them so they would bend like real fingers would.

BfDiDDy · Post by **BfDiDDy** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:29 pm

I use one of these

And one of these

And I play with the Joystick in my lap (so natural) with the nostromo strapped to my arm chair.

Minus goobs head, you can kinda see what I do

- - ---a perfect control setup!

- - ---a perfect control setup!

Re: --What's your idea of a perfect control setup?