Leaving a niggardly tip

[Testiculese]

Fortunately in Europe, they don't tip and waiters get proper wages. Since they're doing it correctly from the start, it doesn't sound wrong, eh?

Jeez, you didn't even bother to ask what the 'proper wage' was, DC. You sound so..American.

[DCrazy]

My point is, what makes you think that you've determined a "proper wage"? In a truly "fair" society people would pay what they felt was due. Then again, when have human beings been fair?

Why is not tipping correct? The baseline cost of the meal is intended to cover the food that you eat, not the service that is provided to you.

Chew on this: my best friend is a waiter at a Johnny Rockets in town. He makes over $100 in tips every night, and he works six nights. That's $100 in addition to the $3.75 or whatever that he's making per hour for the 6 to 8 hours he's working that night. Just because the economy is tip-driven doesn't mean the waiters are poor.

[Lobber]

That's alot in tip money, and I'm willing to be that he doesn't claim it on his income taxes.

If you realize how much food actually costs, you'd know that the restaurant is making at least a 1000% profit on nearly every dish it serves. How is that not covering the costs of the service? Last I checked, service was part of a restaurants "overhead."

[will_kill]

That's alot in tip money, and I'm willing to be that he doesn't claim it on his income taxes...Last I checked, service was part of a restaurants "overhead."

very good...nicely put. IMHO it has alot to do with pure laziness...to many people want for free what they have not rightfully earned. Friggin' spoiled brats...

[DCrazy]

Waiters aren't the only ones responsible for keeping track of taxable tip income; the restaurant is also responsible for making sure that the employees report their tips, since they too have to report to the IRS how much their employees are making. I know for a fact that Johnny Rockets is on top of the tips the waiters receive because they make the employees settle their tip income on paper at the end of the night. If my friend doesn't report his tip income as taxable, he's liable for an audit.

Except, of course, for the fact that he's 17 and his income for the summer falls under the taxable threshold. He might even be exempt from filing (if you earn under a certain amount -- $6500 rings a bell -- then you don't have to file).

[Plebeian]

If you realize how much food actually costs, you'd know that the restaurant is making at least a 1000% profit on nearly every dish it serves. How is that not covering the costs of the service? Last I checked, service was part of a restaurants "overhead."

This is the argument as I see it. I'm not arguing that some people can earn a lot of tip money. I argue that sufficient wages should be paid by the employers such that tipping reverts back to what it was supposed to be: a reward for going above and beyond your requirements. Why should you be rewarded for simply taking an order and bringing food out? That's the bare minimum required. A good server should be able to take care of any needs the client has. The people who do it very well deserve to be tipped, because their base pay doesn't adequately cover that.

As Lobber says, these places make a lot on the menu prices, and the prices on the menu are supposed to cover the ingredients, the preparation, the serving, the cleanup, everything. Do you have the option to not have someone take your order and bring your food out and bus your table? No? Then why are you paying extra for it? The service is supposed to come with the meal. If you get exemplary service, then that's when the tips come in, to thank them for doing a better job than normal.

[Testiculese]

I called you on it 'cause you seemed to have gone into blind patriotism mode, which puts thinkig on the back burner. Guess what? They derived 'proper wages' the same way we did! Minimum here in PA is $6.50. Does that sound fair? If you say yes, then I bet you make more than that!

--

Although most waiters I've met were mostly poor folk, tips can be very lucrative. I was a barback when I was 16, and I got 10% of each bartenders' tips. I would usually get $100+ from each bartender that night. Three bartenders on a Fri or Sat night. I made $600 a week easy, 'cause I had Sunday nights too. Yep, those bartenders made a grand in a night.

slight aside: "He might even be exempt from filing". Everyone is exempt from filing!

[DCrazy]

I called you on it 'cause you seemed to have gone into blind patriotism mode, which puts thinkig on the back burner. Guess what? They derived 'proper wages' the same way we did! Minimum here in PA is $6.50. Does that sound fair? If you say yes, then I bet you make more than that!

My problem with Tiger isn't with his opinion that tipping is superfluous and unfair, but rather with his combined use of the words "fortunately" and "in Europe", as if to signify that my living in America is unfortunate. THAT is what spurned what you see as "blind patriotism".

Minimum wage here in New York State is $6.75 an hour. Yes, I make more than that ($8/hour) because my job calls for more -- I'm a salesman, not a busboy. My wages are not driven by customer satisfaction, which means I don't get any form of compensation should I be complimented for my work, as I have been on multiple occasions, whether from people talking to my manager or writing corporate HR directly. It sucks for me, as I'm a good employee, but at the same time as long as I show up for work I know how much I will make. Doing my job correctly ensures that I won't be fired.

the prices on the menu are supposed to cover the ingredients, the preparation, the serving, the cleanup, everything. Do you have the option to not have someone take your order and bring your food out and bus your table? No? Then why are you paying extra for it? The service is supposed to come with the meal. If you get exemplary service, then that's when the tips come in, to thank them for doing a better job than normal.

Plebe, you've stated as fact what is your opinion. In fact there is a very good alternative to having someone bring your food to your table: cook it yourself. Where has anyone said that the menu prices are supposed to cover waitress service? Years of tradition, the same tradition we are debating here, have said otherwise. I refer to this website for further justification from people who work in the field.

I agree that someone merely writing down what you want and bringing it to your table is not good service. Most waiters and waitresses put more effort into it than that. A good waiter or waitress is helpful, courteous, and friendly, and will do his or her best to ensure that you get what you want. Their job is not only to make sure that you can stuff your face, but also to make sure you enjoy yourself while doing it. But, since their work is not completely subsidized by their employer, even the most baseline service is worthy of a tip -- just not a good one. A waiter or waitress will know based on their tip returns if they're doing a good job or not. But they still brought the food to you, so why would you not thank them for it?

[Admiral Thrawn]

niggardly

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that you're a witness Lobber. Despite what the dictionary says, it's obvious to anyone with a brain where that word was derived.

[DCrazy]

Well to anyone with a search engine, it is indeed obvious. After all, it would suck if we had to remove all such homophones from our language.

[TheCope]

He used that word to see if it would whoop up a debate on words not on tipping.

[Top Gun]

Well to anyone with a search engine, it is indeed obvious. After all, it would suck if we had to remove all such homophones from our language.

Dear Lord...if there was that much outrage over such a silly incident, imagine what would have happened if Peter Jackson had decided to use verbatim the line in Return of the King which features Aragorn using the word "niggard." Come to think of it, maybe that's why he decided not to.

[roid]

Niggardly

i initially thought the same thing Thrawn (IMO it's the "GG" in the middle that makes it stand out), but then i decided if i was going to take offence i'd at least look it up to make sure.

& since i couldn't be bothered looking it up, i decided i also shouldn't be bothered taking offence.

it's not good for your wick to be shorter than your attention span.

[Testiculese]

(You need a longer fuse, DC )

Since we're stuck with what we have, I leave a minimum of $5. I never go anywhere just for 'coffee', so it's usually 30% or so of the bill. If the service required was higher (we made many demands, or something, and s/he met them well enough, taking into account how busy it is), I'll leave more, but I do not base the tip on the price of the meal.

[Lobber]

I was going to defend myself, but the community came to my aid instead. Next time you want to comment Admiral Thrawn, perhaps you should do some homework before you open your mouth and reveal your ignorance.

[DCrazy]

Well, hell, you're the one that baited him.

But I digress. We've got enough of an argument brewing over tips, let's not drag the thread into personal attacks based on deliberate use of a word in the English language that bears a striking phonic (if not historic) resemblance to a derisive insult. Oh wait, it's too late.

And to be quite honest, I'm not the type that goes by strict percentages. If the bill is, say, $23, I'll leave $30 on the table and hit the road. That's more than a 20% tip, but hell if I'm going to dig around for singles or, worse, ask for change just so that it's a perfect 20%.

IB4TL!

[melvin]

If you realize how much food actually costs, you'd know that the restaurant is making at least a 1000% profit on nearly every dish it serves.

that statement could best be described as 'malfactual'.

[Lobber]

It was actually meant as a hyperbole.

[Gooberman]

Well, hell, you're the one that baited him.

My experience with this word has always been in trying to bait someone. I first heard it on the radio, the conservative host who uttered the word then took calls from liberals complaining about him using it and where it came from, he then showed them how 'smart' he was.

[Lobber]

I use the word because it fits the argument, and there's nothing wrong with the word.

[Mobius]

I'm so glad I live in a country where tipping is not required - or expected. I only leave a tip if we have had simply outstanding service - and then I'd never leave more than $10, and usually $5.

(I've only left a tip once in the last 12 visits to restaurants - 7 of these have been to our local favourite).

Waiting staff, and service staff in New Zealand make a liveable wage - and it's incredibly nice not to have to tip.

If tipping is compulsory - then it removes any and all incentive for waiting staff to try and provide good service. It also stops them from recommending the most expensive items on the menu. When you ask for a recommendation, you can be sure it's either because they have lots of it, and want ot get rid of it, or it's actually quite good!

[Admiral Thrawn]

Edit: I'm going to follow your lead Dcrazy. But Lobber, for future reference, please take your words into consideration when thinking about your audience.

[DCrazy]

[edit]Removed because I don't feel like fanning this stupid tangential flame any more.[/edit]

[Lobber]

I'd like to know what words I used that were inappropriate. As far as audiences go, the DBB is more liberal than most forums.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Lobb, if you truly need to know what irks me, then send a me a PM. Like I said, I'm going to follow Dcrazy's lead and keep it out of this thread.

[Lobber]

TBH I really don't care.

[Plebeian]

Plebe, you've stated as fact what is your opinion. In fact there is a very good alternative to having someone bring your food to your table: cook it yourself. Where has anyone said that the menu prices are supposed to cover waitress service?

Good, next time I go into a restaurant, I'll demand to be able to make my own food. The thing is, the service comes with the meal. So how you can think it's separate, I've no clue. If that was the case, we'd pick out a server when we come in, and they'd be freelance, not being paid by the restaurant. If we didn't want to take advantage of the service, we wouldn't have to.

But we are required to have the service, because it's part of the meal! Or at least, it's supposed to be. It's not treated like it now, I know, but that's the problem. It used to be that someone bringing you your food and that's it wasn't worthy of a tip, because guess what, they're doing their job! If they get tipped for doing their job, why don't the rest of us? Hey, I showed up for work today, I should get an extra $50.

Basic service should be covered by the cost of whatever it is you're buying, at least assuming it's mandatory. Meals include the waiting, hotels includes housekeeping, etc. If they just do an adequate job as they're expected to, then why should we pay more to thank them for not doing a horrible job? (Oh wait, if they do a horrible job, we're still supposed to thank them.) We should already be paying for the basic service. If someone goes above and beyond what's necessary, then that's when we should be tipping.

And I know that's not how things work today, but that's not what I'm arguing. I don't think we should just stop tipping all of a sudden. I think that restaurants should start paying their staff. With people out there who tip based on the old rules, there's good servers being stiffed. And it's completely stupid that if someone doesn't do all that great of a job, we should still be rewarding them for it.

But I'm saying exactly the same things I have been. This isn't how it works now, but it's how it should work. They should be paid by their employer for doing their job. Wouldn't that make sense? That way, they're getting fair wages from their employer, and we just reward behavior that should actually be rewarded (that is, doing a better than average job).

Again, for emphasis, I know that this is not how it works anymore, and I'm not advocating just stopping tipping. But I'd love to see things shift back to where everyone didn't think that they always deserved tips (and therefore employers could cut back on wages). Reward good behavior, not just behavior. Will you praise your dog when he pees on the tile instead of carpet? He's doing better than he could, why not reward him for it?

[Lobber]

To
Insure
Proper
Service

[Admiral Thrawn]

Has anyone left a very small tip, or meager tip, to a waitress because of bad service? I had bad service once, at a restaurant called Gilberts on the Santa Cruz pier. I got a refill for my coke, which cost $2.50 for the coke, then I asked for a second refill, and the waitress told me she'd have to charge me for another coke. I only had one glass of that. So, for three 10oz glasses of coke, I paid $5.00. Since the bill came to $25.00 and I was going to give a 10% tip of 2.50, I gave her 10 cents instead, deducting the cost of the second coke. What do you think? Good idea, bad idea?

I'll return back to the original question. As far as your anwer Lobber, I think you'll find it in the Kingdom Ministry that gave instructions for those attending restaurants during the assembly. You should use that as a guideline.

[Plebeian]

To
Insure
Proper
Service

There's insurance policies for service? Why are we insuring a nontangible like that? Or do you mean ensure?

[DCrazy]

Plebe, in that case, let's remove all those bonuses that everyone gets for completing the project without going over the budget. Or, let's get rid of overtime pay, since you're just doing your job while you're there.

[WarAdvocat]

My first reaction was: Here's Lobber, trying to justify his poor behavior, and I was going to let this slide. My second reaction was the same, but given some of the posts on this thread, and the fact that I'm a former Food Server, I felt that some education was in order. Add in the bonus Etymology points, and this topic became a "must answer" topic for me.

Since the bill came to $25.00 and I was going to give a 10% tip of 2.50, I gave her 10 cents instead, deducting the cost of the second coke. What do you think? Good idea, bad idea?

Speaking as a former food server, I'll address some issues, in no particular order:

#1 Leaving 10% is a bald statement to any server that either you're a cheap S.O.B. or that the service was sub-standard. Servers usually know when there was a problem with the customer. The standard tip for "ADEQUATE" service is 15%.

#2 If you had a problem with the server charging you for a soda you didn't feel you should be charged for, you should indeed talk to the manager, before punishing the server for what might indeed be restaurant policy. Previous server's failure to enforce this policy is no cause for you to penalize someone who IS enforcing it. OTOH, the servers who are NOT charging you for refills, deserve a little something extra (OVER AND ABOVE the 15% you SHOULD be leaving). Or, if you're of a rigidly moralistic mind, report them to the manager.

#3 If the standard policy was that refills were free, and this server charged you for them regardless, then you OVERTIPPED.

#4 If you are a regular at Gilberts, and consistently leave miserly 10% tips, expect to have "special ingredients" in your food. Servers remember stuff like this, and make sure you get your money's worth.

Now, to address the debate about tipping in general: There are reasons that tipping for service is part of the socio/economic contract, especially in the restaurant business. Anyone with an elementary understanding of business should know that if you increase the overhead, your cost increases, and unless you want to shave your profit margin, you have to increase your price as well. Without going into intricate explanations, it's less expensive for you, the consumer, to TIP the server, than it would be for you, the consumer, to have the full cost of the service included in the meal.

The rule of thumb is to add 15% to the cost of your meal. It's not that hard people. You should plan on this expenditure prior to going to a restaurant, you cheapskate chiselers. Don't try to justify your uncouth behavior.

And finally, Admiral Thrawn, let's not live up to the stereotype of the hyper-offendable minority. Your ignorance and/or lack of education is NO EXCUSE TO TAKE OFFENSE! I did a little research, just to double-check, and nowhere do I find any offensive reference to persons of African descent in the etymology of the word "Niggardly". It's simply a homophone, as others have noted.

niggard
1366, nygart, of uncertain origin. The suffix suggests Fr. origin (cf. dastard), but the root word is probably related to O.N. hnøggr "stingy," from P.Gmc. *khnauwjaz (cf. Swed. njugg "close, careful," Ger. genau "precise, exact"), and to O.E. hneaw "stingy, niggardly," which did not survive in M.E.

Niggard - (substatif) "Miser." (adjective) "Miserly." (verb) "To Stint, Supply Sparingly." All of these forms are archaic. They dervive from the Middle English form "nigard" = "miser" or "miserly." There is also a Middle English form "nekard." These come from the Anglo-Saxon "hneaw" = "mean, niggardly, stingy, miserly." It is also related, and possibly derived from to the Old Norse "hnÃ?ggr" = "niggardly, stingy," but can also mean "a blow, strike," related to "hnÃ?ggva" = "to strike, beat, rob." Thus, we get the implication of an etymology meaning something like "robber," or someone who skims off the top of deals, etc. See "niggardly."

Niggardly - "Stingy, Miserly." Niggardly has absolutely nothing to do with the term "★■◆●." It simply means "like or characteristic of a niggard," "niggard" being an old term for "miser." The term "nigard" was used by Chaucer in 1374, so we can clearly see that it pre-dates the pejorative "★■◆●." See "niggard."

*Edited for content and corrections

[Flabby Chick]

Heh! Funny how a thread moves somtimes when you've not visited it for a while. I've used that word since learning it as a kid, only here at the old DBB has somone pointed out to me it could be offensive. You live and learn.

[Plebeian]

Plebe, in that case, let's remove all those bonuses that everyone gets for completing the project without going over the budget. Or, let's get rid of overtime pay, since you're just doing your job while you're there.

Your clients give you money directly? Must be nice. (And I get no overtime, no bonuses that aren't across the board.) Your examples are money coming from your employer, not from your clientele.

If you want it to be somewhat similar, then you'll have to rely on your $100 product being bought by some people for $125, others $150, still others $500. You'll get a low base salary, and have to hope that enough people pay over the base price in order to get your worth back. Let's say that enough people do, that's great for you. But wouldn't it be better if you were just paid for what the position should be worth up front, and then if you're involved on a really popular product, then get bonuses/commissions/whatever on top of that?

[Lobber]

As a matter of fact, when the food was first served, I was planning on giving a 15% tip. Then as it seemed that service would be good, I upped my estimate to 20%. But when service started to wane, and I had to pay for a second refill, I updated my estimate to 10% and decided that whatever the cost of the coke was would be deducted from that 10%. Since the meal came to approximately $25, and the coke was an astounding $2.50, that left a tip amount of $0.08, but I gave a dime because I didn't have any nickles.

I did that instead of storming out of the restaurant in anger and refusing to pay. So in my estimation, I did the best thing I could do.

[Admiral Thrawn]

To leave a penny or 10 cents would actually be MORE insulting than leavng no money at all. The other guys were right though. Why should waiter/waitress be punished for something that was most likely a restaurant policy?

Your just being "niggardly", that's all.

So in my estimation, I did the best thing I could do.

No, you did exactly what you WANTED to do.

[MD-2389]

As a matter of fact, when the food was first served, I was planning on giving a 15% tip. Then as it seemed that service would be good, I upped my estimate to 20%. But when service started to wane, and I had to pay for a second refill, I updated my estimate to 10% and decided that whatever the cost of the coke was would be deducted from that 10%. Since the meal came to approximately $25, and the coke was an astounding $2.50, that left a tip amount of $0.08, but I gave a dime because I didn't have any nickles.

I did that instead of storming out of the restaurant in anger and refusing to pay. So in my estimation, I did the best thing I could do.

So, you decided to be a dick because you didn't agree with restaurant policy? How noble of you. Maybe you should pay closer attention to the menu then.

[Lobber]

That's right. I'll be however I want to be because I'm the customer. They serve me. That's how it is.

[Beowulf]

This topic is lame. Nobody cares.

[Stryker]

Thus, the reason it is one of only 11 topics on this forum with multiple pages.