Fixing The Fusion Bug?

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:15 am

Ahh, the fusion bug. It adds depth to a game worn thin for some, but the less experienced might think it's just not fair.

What are YOUR thoughts?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:45 am

Most people don't even know of it's existance, and exploiting it is 95% luck. Keep it in.

Unix · Post by **Unix** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:44 am

I don't even know what it is.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:55 am

I agree with Krom. Unless you're playing in a very small and cramped level, taking advantage of it is mostly luck; how often do you have multiple people right next to each other? I don't think I've ever successfully used it myself. If you're going for bugfixes, the first priority is that damn white reticle box.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:01 am

I've done it, but yeah, exploiting the fusion bug requires the proper circumstances, a good eye and quick reflexes.

The way I look at it is that the fusion causes an overload in the shields of the ship it hits, which resonates in the shields of any ship touching that ship, causing a feedback loop to destruction.

Not a bug.. An unplanned feature!

SuperSheep · Post by **SuperSheep** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:42 am

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Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:49 am

I'm really glad the current consensus absolutely does not agree with you. You'd do well to fix more important things than what people through the democratic process mainly consider a feature like trichording.

I am a server op, and unless you make that "fix" optional, I won't be touching SSAC when it's released. Some things just shouldn't be changed.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:20 am

WarAdvocate wrote:The way I look at it is that the fusion causes an overload in the shields of the ship it hits, which resonates in the shields of any ship touching that ship, causing a feedback loop to destruction.

Not a bug.. An unplanned feature!

Hehe, that's good!

I think there are good points on both sides of the debate. It's a lot of fun for Fusion aces, and it takes some real skill to abuse with any kind of consistency. It is a bug, though, and unless you buy into one of the provided story tie-ins (;)), it does seem unfair.

There are emotional investments on both sides of the issue, but maybe we could all ask ourselves, objectively, "what would D3 be like without it?".

Pugwash · Post by **Pugwash** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:43 am

Fix it!

Liquid Fire · Post by **Liquid Fire** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:28 pm

I had no idea such a bug existed, but waradvocate's explanation is cool, so there are better things to fix.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:57 pm

In 4-5 years of playing D3, I've been able to successfully utilize this bug 4 times. That's not to say I'm bad (most of you should know that I'm at the very least a moderately good pilot) but simply that people don't stick together and bump into each other often enough to make it effective. Most of the time when I see someone bugged, they would have been pulverized by the impact without the bug or would at least have been damaged so severely that it would have been a waste of time trying to continue to fight in their extremely damaged state. The bug's awesome when it's used right, but it takes a ton of skill to utilize. It's not something a n00b will use to kill an ace, and in most cases, not something an ace would use to kill a n00b. I don't consider it that big a deal; it doesn't really affect anything but CTF and Team Anarchy anyways--players don't stay close enough together in other gametypes to be affected by the bug.

Scratch · Post by **Scratch** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:50 pm

there is a bug? heh -- i thought D3 was bug free man! thanks for ruining my dreams Bunbun!!!!

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:52 pm

Stryker wrote:In 4-5 years of playing D3, I've been able to successfully utilize this bug 4 times. That's not to say I'm bad (most of you should know that I'm at the very least a moderately good pilot) but simply that people don't stick together and bump into each other often enough to make it effective.

Wow. I see it exploited in at least 50% of the games I play (this bug actually can be used w/ your own shields -- called "fusion bump"). And I have been in situations where two (or even one) tanks in a Halcyon basically brought the game down by spawnkilling the other team for 5 or more minutes in their base.

The "cover story" is rediculus since it doesn't inflict damage to yourself (like a missile, MD or vauss splash does) while bumping someone. The packet burst actually makes life miserable for everyone in Bi3 games. AFAIK it only happens w/ acurates off -- you'll never see it on a LAN party.

From a programmers POV it's a bug and I'm glad it's fixed.

I'd suspect everyone complaining about the fix to be an active exploiter

Hey, since it happens only "rarely", why would the fix bother ppl at all ? Would you complain if the Omega cannon would get fixed too ?

Edit:

WarAdvocat wrote:Ahh, the fusion bug. It adds depth to a game worn thin for some, but the less experienced might think it's just not fair.

IMVHO it's exactly the other way round -- now you know how the fusion blob will affect you. How would blowing ships up when they shouldn't add depth to the game (besides frustration) ?

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:32 pm

Gren-

I got one on LAN last month (I think). I also believe your theory about the fusion bump is incorrect. Let's test that.

As for whether it adds depth to the game, well, that's tough to say. From a victim's perspective, perhaps it doesn't. Me, personally, I think it adds depth even if I don't use fusion. After all, it behooves one doubly to stay out of tight places where you might get tagged w/ fusion right as someone bumps into you

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:00 pm

On a sidenote, when shields overlapp (it's probably overlapping hit-spheres tho) while a fusion blob hits there is actually "interference" going on -- the ships get bounced apart. W/ the bug active you wouldn't see that since both players just blow up

I'm sure we can check the behavior w/ acurates on later today. If you saw it happen on a LAN it may be that the server just forgot to turn it on.

Muffalicious · Post by **Muffalicious** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:05 pm

Can't you play without it?

Exploits don't make the game fun for anyone except for those who use them.

FIX IT

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:32 pm

Oh grendel... reality check, if the fusion bug worked with your own shields by ramming someone and firing fusion at point blank range, it would kill you too. Your own primary fire can and will damage your ship. Don't believe me? Fire up your own game in any outdoor level, fly the phoenix, grab and afterburner cooler and the plasma cannon, fly forward while pulsing the afterburner and firing plasma (outdoors the phoenix is faster then plasma), it will kill you when you slow down.

Your own primary fire will kill you, the fusion bug works because it colides with one ship, then the next ship, while it's still inside the first ship, so it colides again, and again and again, if it worked off your own hit sphere it would kill you too. The fusionbump is simply a charged shot at point blank range when people are less likely to miss, not the fusion bug.

I have managed to exploit the fusion bug in the open maybe two or three times ever. In the crammed bases of halcyon and other small levels, I have exploited it rarely, people just don't bump into each other that much, the only people that do are total newbies getting in everyone's way in small levels like halcyon or phoenixes that lag so much they fly through everyone else.

I've died more from the fusion bug then I have managed to exploit it, but I still prefer to keep it in because it is fun, it brings a new and interesting challenge to the game.

Also, I have never noticed packet bursting even when I killed the entire 4 player blue team in halcyon with the fusion bug once, so I think you are all making that up.

And if you are talking about packet bursting, a 14 player indika is going to have lag on the internet pretty much regardless of what weapons are in the game. (BTW, anyone remember when the BP/Micro was allowed in indika? I miss those, put more fun into the game till someone bitched cuz they couldn't beat them and had em all banned.)

Thats just it, the more you guys remove from the game the less there is, just keep on going and there won't be anything left.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:37 pm

get rid of it.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:10 am

Krom wrote:Oh grendel... reality check,
[..]
Thats just it, the more you guys remove from the game the less there is, just keep on going and there won't be anything left.

Let's see, what did we remove ? Right, half the game

Edit:

Grendel wrote:I see it exploited in at least 50% of the games I play

My bad -- I ment "I see it happen in.."

Not sure about the bump, I'm not good enough to get the timing right nor do I have access to the D3 source. Maybe some better pilots can fly the AC servers a bit and post what they think ?

When we were testing the bug it definately created lag. I didn't run a sniffer so I can't say for sure if that was due sending a packet burst or the server getting stuck in that loop for a moment. I could double check w/ the sniffer if that's of interest.

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:36 am

F it and go Play D1/D2.... you guys have no clue how to use a fusion...teh noobz think D3 has fusion !

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:47 am

Krom wrote:(BTW, anyone remember when the BP/Micro was allowed in Indika? I miss those, put more fun into the game till someone bitched cuz they couldn't beat them and had em all banned.)

They banned Microwave, too? Damn. I thought it was bad enough when they nixed:

- Omega Cannon
- Guided Missile
- 4-Pack Guided Missiles
- Gunboy
- Cloak (WTF?!)
- Rapid-Fire
- Invulnerability (WTF?!)
- Energy->Shield Converter (WTF?!)

(All of which are banned by default by D3Server.)

Krom wrote:I have managed to exploit the Fusion bug in the open maybe two or three times ever. In the crammed bases of Halcyon and other small levels, I have exploited it rarely, people just don't bump into each other that much, the only people that do are total newbies getting in everyone's way in small levels like Halcyon or Phoenixes that lag so much they fly through everyone else.

I've died...well, I can't remember the last time I died from the Fusion bug, or used it, for that matter. But I do remember that it makes such a satisfying *CRUNCH* when getting a pair of assbumpers with it. It's such a rare glitch in most cases that it's almost a novelty, which is why I voted "No - I like it."

I don't see servers banning the Gravity Gun in Half-Life 2 Deathmatch just because it is rarely exploited to skyjump or insta-fire grenades at people.

Let's see, what did we remove? Right, half the game.

That's not what he meant. He meant that if you keep going with changes like that, half the game indeed will be gone.

Anything third party that modifies the gameplay should be made entirely optional.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:07 pm

I also get annoyed when someone goes so far out of their way to second guess the programmers of the game.

Don't fix what isn't broken and the game will remain fun.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:39 pm

Skyalmian wrote:- Omega Cannon
- Guided Missile
- 4-Pack Guided Missiles
- Gunboy
- Cloak (WTF?!)
- Rapid-Fire
- Invulnerability (WTF?!)
- Energy->Shield Converter (WTF?!)

(All of which are banned by default by D3Server.)

I noticed that, and it bothered me too. I know there are good reasons to remove the Omega (known bugs), guided missiles (known to go invisible, though I'd usually keep them in, personally), and gunboy (takes up bandwidth). The rest is totally unnecessary. It forces me to take the time to manually re-allow them.

I tend to feel the same way Krom does. The proposed fusion bug fix doesn't fall under the category of second-guessing the game's programmers, however.

Palzon · Post by **Palzon** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:45 pm

SSAC causes around half of my megas to bounce. its a bigger problem to me than cheaters ever were. sorry.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:17 am

BUBBALOU wrote:F it and go Play D1/D2.... you guys have no clue how to use a fusion...teh noobz think D3 has fusion !

D2 had fusion?

d2 fusion was completely useless, and entertaining seeing people trying to use it on you. at least in d3 it works, although totally numbed down compared to its granddad.

i say leave the bug. anything that makes that weak blob of purple a little bit stronger is ok in my book.

Trackball · Post by **Trackball** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:42 am

kurupt wrote:D2 had fusion?

d2 fusion was completely useless, and entertaining seeing people trying to use it on you. at least in d3 it works, although totally numbed down compared to its granddad.

Thats the main reason why I think Descent 2 multiplayer is overrated. D1 fusion should be the only incentive needed to create D1X-W32.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:31 am

kurupt wrote:at least in d3 it works, although totally numbed down compared to its granddad.

That can be changed.

*cough* server-side-damage-change *cough* The ship-shake effect is hardcoded, however.

11 for the feature.
10 against. W00t.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I noticed that, and it bothered me too. ... It forces me to take the time to manually re-allow them.

Most don't bother since people are lazy, and the result is that the program is left to remove them all.

At least banning them can be undone for the server ops that want them left in, but such servers will always be in the minority.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:15 pm

I voted 'Fix' 'cause I thought it was something else. 12 to 9.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:23 am

you wanna talk about a real fusion bug, try running retail d1 and getting that fusion bug.

it would stay charged and make you go apeshit, bouncing you all over the mine until your shields were completely peeled off, and then you'd die. kinda cool the first time it happened, annoying there after.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:50 am

EDIT:

Sheep said that this poll doesn't mean crap, he is gonna "fix" it regardless, and there won't be an ability to turn the fix "ON" or "OFF". Nothing we say will change that.

UNEDITED:

This poll doesn't mean crap. Sheep is gonna "fix" it regardless, and there won't be an ability to turn the fix "ON" or "OFF". Nothing we say will change that.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:09 am

You're the one who made the damn poll.

Unix · Post by **Unix** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:00 am

Skyalmian wrote:You're the one who made the damn poll.

LOL

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:17 am

Please view my edited post above, for your edification and enlightenment. Please pardon me for any confusion this may engender in the already confused.

SuperSheep · Post by **SuperSheep** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:15 pm

Do not put words in my mouth. I said no such thing about the poll. I did say I was going to implement the feature. I did not say anything about your poll being crap. In fact, myself and the others working on this do in fact care very much what the community thinks and this poll is something we talk about a lot.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:19 pm

I'm sorry, I thought I was paraphrasing you. Let me quote directly however to avoid any further mistakes. We were discussing the poll in chat... here is pretty much how the conversation went:

[11:18pm] <SuperSheep> so war...erm buny, u still think fusion bug is good thing?
[11:18pm] <Bunyip> heh
[11:19pm] <Bunyip> I like it!
[11:19pm] <Bunyip> the fusion bug
[11:22pm] <SuperSheep> so on the basis of the network traffic issue though?
[11:23pm] <Bunyip> My actual opinion is somewhere in between "NO" and "yes-but optional"
[11:23pm] <SuperSheep> well, i'm at yes fix it
[11:24pm] <SuperSheep> even if grendel and i are the only servers running it
[11:24pm] <Bunyip> make it a switchable option
[11:24pm] <Bunyip> defaulting to "no bug"
[11:25pm] <Bunyip> let people have fusion bug on if they want and still have anticheat protection
[11:25pm] <SuperSheep> not going to do that, sorry, it is an exploit, not a feature
[11:25pm] <SuperSheep> it borderlines on cheating imo

There's more along that line, but that's the meat of the convo. At no time did you ever actually come out and say that the poll doesn't mean crap. Please accept my apologies for putting words in your mouth. It is hard to imagine how I got the impression you were saying that the poll doesn't mean crap and that you were going to leave the fix in (and mandatory) regardless of what anyone said.

I must be eating crazy pills.

Richard Cranium · Post by **Richard Cranium** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:34 pm

After much testing we know exactly how the Fusion bug works and it's much easier to utilize it than one might think. The bug generates quite a bit of extra damage packet traffic as well causing lag and reliable buffer over runs. Damage packets are sent in addition to the normal game packets. Most servers have their packets per second set to between 7 and 9 on the Internet. When damage packets are sent about one player all the players receive them causing a burst of traffic. Since damage packets are reliable packets every player must send an acknowledgment back to the server. Normal damage packet(s) should only take 2 packets times the number of people in the game. So for a 3 player game normal damage sends 6 packets of data. When the Fusion bug hits it will send anywhere from 5 to 20 times this amount of packet traffic. The least amount of packets would be about 30 extra up to 120 packets. All of this happens in addition to the position, power-up, door open/close, and a few others. So you can see this really is a problem especially for people with slower connections. The buffer over runs happens usually when there are slow connection players or lots of players in the game. When someone gets a buffer over run they get disconnected.

I hope this helps people to understand a little more about the bug. I could go in to much more detail if you need.

On a side note, I think this poll is a little miss leading because of too many options.

RC

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:39 pm

WarAdvicate wrote:I must be eating crazy pills.

Or maybe you forgot to take your sarcasm meds. I never miss taking mine, but I think I've developed an immunity.

SuperSheep wrote:it borderlines on cheating imo

Bleh. I don't think you should equate the fusion bug with wrong-doing. Now I'm pissed!

SuperSheep · Post by **SuperSheep** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:56 pm

Well, sorry, I still don't see how I said the poll was crap? Don't even see poll mentioned actually.

And since we're going down this road, why not mention that I talked to you in chat about fixing the fusion bug before you even put up your poll.

Whatever, I'm through debating he said/she said, I stated our case for removing it, and if people do not want to run anticheat or wish to play in those servers, that is their right.

I have no personal attachment to the fusion bug, rather a personal commitment to make gameplay as fair and as consistent as possible. It is quite possible that some will not like those things.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:20 pm

WarAdvocat wrote:At no time did you ever actually come out and say that the poll doesn't mean crap. Please accept my apologies for putting words in your mouth.

Nevertheless, you did make it perfectly clear what your intentions were, and that nothing was going to change your mind. Has that changed?

I still say the fix should be optional. My connect can handle a few extra packets

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:56 pm

If you are going to put a "fix" in, default it to leaving the bug, I've never crashed, been disconnected or had a buffer overflow from the fusion bug. Even when I gathered a group of people together to show them the bug many times in a row on a server or when I killed 4 players at once with the bug I never had any network or otherwise related problems.

And if you are talking about the players on the recieveing end, I've never had a problem with that either, nor extra damage packets lagging me out, it's irrelevant anyway since you are dead if it happens to you. Stop talking like damage packets are huge. I'd say I've had less then one death in 200 related to the fusion bug, it is not easy to exploit outside of a very few levels and situations which can be easily avoided, and from the sounds of it your "fix" will cause more problems then the original fusion bug ever did.

Fixing The Fusion Bug?

Should a bugfix be implemented for the Fusion Bug?

Fixing The Fusion Bug?