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Vander
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Post by Vander »

Washington Post wrote:Barely a third of Americans -- 34 percent -- think Bush is doing a good job ensuring high ethics in government, which is slightly lower than President Bill Clinton's standing on this issue when he left office.
What will we tell the children? Honor and integrity, indeed!

So what do you guys think of the Libby indictment? Are Perjury/False Statements/Obstruction charges the straws grasped by a partisan witchhunt that couldn't indict on the Intelligence Identities or Espionage Acts? Is "Official A" off the hook? Will we see pardons if we see convictions?

*edit- here's the WaPo article.
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Post by Dedman »

I think Scooter (I have to giggle at that name) will go down in flames, MAYBE serve 16 months in a low security prison and the other players will walk away free. There will be no pardons.
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Post by Testiculese »

Sounds like when Reagan and Daddy were in charge. Corruption and free money at our expense for all!
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Post by woodchip »

Before we convict Scooter (Scoot, Scooter is biker jargon for "motorcyle" BTW), perhaps we should let him have his day in court. How many here can accurately remember a conversation with your girl/boy friend/parent/children etc from 2-3 years ago. Prosecutor will have to prove that Libby actually intended to lie.
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Post by Zuruck »

Ahh, I love the partisan witch hunt. Those charges look really familiar, maybe seven years ago they were familiar.

Woodchip, if you forgot a conversation you had with someone with some stupid thing I could understand, but when you forget five different times when you spilled the beans on a CIA agent, I tend to believe he didn't forget, and he knew better.
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Post by Lothar »

What's interesting to me is that every single charge against Scooter Libby is related to things that happened after the investigation started -- misstatements, misrememberances, or lies (depending on who you believe) about what reporters he's talked to and what he said to them.

There's not a single indictment relating to the original so-called "outing" of a CIA agent, because there was no crime committed. The only possible crime was a result of the investigation, and even that is on shaky ground.

I don't expect any significant conviction.
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Post by woodchip »

Lothar wrote: I don't expect any significant conviction.
Remember Martha Stewart? Same charges.

Lothar wrote:There's not a single indictment relating to the original so-called "outing" of a CIA agent, because there was no crime committed.
A ex-CIA agent when interviewed about the outing said it was well known that Wilson's wife was CIA. Seems Wilson had a habit of introducing his wife at social settings as "His CIA Wife"...prior to Novaks column.
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Post by Zuruck »

I'm really wondering what you guys think is ok in these sort of things. Do you feel that Clinton's perjury/obstruction charges warranted the attention they got?

What would you think if she happened to be an active spy at the time? Do you really think the filth in the White House would have subsided for the sake of national security? Or said what they said? They made a point to tell the reporters that his wife was an operative, if they were just trying to say who gave him the job, they could have simply said his wife, or an official at the CIA. No, instead, they told Novak and various others verbatim, his wife is an operative and we want him smeared.

Even if there is no conviction, which I hope to hell there is, don't you guys feel a little reluctant to believe your party? Fitzgerald is not partisan, he's not a Democrat, he's trying to throw the axe at Chicago's hugely Democratic mayor for corruption so don't play the partisan game. You guys think Clinton was so terrible and dishonest, well nobody in his administration was ever indicted, even for as much as that nasty man did.

Wake up, open your eyes, time to demand something a little more than you're given in Washington. Revolt, revolutionize, get these back-scratchers out of our capital and our lives. Get America back to where it was once, or it'll be too late and pretty soon you'll have to be carrying "papers" to travel around. Just like the godless, lawless, Commies of old.
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Post by Lothar »

Zuruck wrote:Do you feel that Clinton's perjury/obstruction charges warranted the attention they got?
Since the perjury / obstruction led to another crime not being prosecuted (recall that the only reason we heard about Lewinsky is because it was brought up in a sexual harassment trial) and because it was obviously intentional (he didn't just forget having sex with her), I think it warranted some attention, though certainly not as much as it was given.

In this case, I'm certain there was no underlying crime -- Valerie Plame was not undercover, her ID was not actively being protected, her husband made clear in his book that she had lived in the US for several years, etc. -- so I don't think the charges deserve that much attention. If it turns out he was intentionally lying, of course, they warrant some attention, but certainly not the level they've already been given.
What would you think if she happened to be an active spy at the time?
That would've changed a lot, of course. If an active spy whose ID is being protected is outed, that's a serious problem. If, on the other hand, she's introduced at parties as "my CIA wife" and most reporters were able to find out she worked for the CIA without much effort, and she hasn't done covert work in years, I don't see what's wrong with saying "yeah, Joe Wilson got this job because of his CIA wife."
Do you really think the filth in the White House would have subsided for the sake of national security?
Yes, I do.
instead, they told Novak and various others verbatim, his wife is an operative and we want him smeared.
Source?

I've heard a number of times that people mentioned his wife was an operative, and that furthermore, some reporters contacted the CIA and asked if it was OK to publish the info. The CIA didn't object. Obviously, her status as an operative was not a secret, and was not something the CIA wanted protected. So, what's the problem? Why should we still care about this? Someone whose identity as a CIA employee (I'm not even sure she was an "operative") was well known is now more well-known.
don't you guys feel a little reluctant to believe your party?
Of course I am. But I'm not getting my info just from the party. I'm listening to what the reporters involved have said, and what Joe Wilson says in his own book. He himself said his wife hadn't been covert or living overseas for at least 6 years. All the facts -- all of them, not just some of them, coming from every source on every side -- point to there being no crime. A political dirty trick, maybe, played on someone who was playing politics anyway. But no crime.
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Post by Birdseye »

WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT! WITCH HUNT!


Republicans did it to CLinton, now it's the Dems sticking it to the republicans. Ahh, sweet revenge for the Dem's. Now you hear the republicans babbling "we need to forget this and move on, its slowing down the nation"

HAAHAHAHAHAHa
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Post by bash »

Revenge? You overestimate the damage. The Dem trophy wall is sparsely covered with small fry but they're gaining some great fish stories about the ones that got away, I suppose. Scooter Libby, Michael Brown? Heh. :P
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Post by Dedman »

bash wrote:Revenge? You overestimate the damage. The Dem trophy wall is sparsely covered with small fry but they're gaining some great fish stories about the ones that got away, I suppose. Scooter Libby, Michael Brown? Heh. :P
I don't view it as revenge so much as a continuation of the tit-for-tat fighting that has been going on for as long as people have been maneuvering for political power. In the great scheme of things, this isn't a Dem or Rep thing; it's a human being thing.
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Post by Top Wop »

Dedman wrote:I don't view it as revenge so much as a continuation of the tit-for-tat fighting that has been going on for as long as people have been maneuvering for political power. In the great scheme of things, this isn't a Dem or Rep thing; it's a human being thing.
X2. These kinds of politics have been around since the nation has been founded. Its no different than in the past. In this case there was no crime committed IMO.
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Post by Stryker »

No one was hurt during this incident.

Illegal immigrants have killed people.

Which is more important?

Which is getting the attention?

Which is Bush being forced to pay attention to?
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Post by Birdseye »

Stryker wrote:No one was hurt during this incident.

Illegal immigrants have killed people.

Which is more important?

Which is getting the attention?

Which is Bush being forced to pay attention to?


What?
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Post by Will Robinson »

Perjury is perjury, lying to the grand jury is lying to the grand jury.

Clinton got off like O.J. Simpson did, by way of jury nullification, he had the luxury of being tried in a political court instead of a criminal court.
The judge saw him faced with an impeachment proceeding so she decided that a criminal prosecution would interfere with that, thinking the impeachment process would lead to whatever justice he had coming. In retrospect I'd say that was naive.
So she pursued sanctions, fines, removal of his law license etc. and didn't recomend a criminal prosecution.

She would have done the country a great service if she had originally told Paula Jones that she could wait until Clinton was out of office so he could face the same legal system that any one else would have faced. The same system that Libby will have to face.
If he's lucky he'll get a politically minded jury who lets him off the way Clinton got off. If not he gets what he deserves.

and Zuruck, where did you get the notion that they named Plame at all let alone said that they wanted to burn her as a covert agent? That's bull★■◆●. From what I've read they merely refered to her as "Wilsons wife who works at the CIA"
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Post by Dedman »

Birdseye wrote:
Stryker wrote:No one was hurt during this incident.

Illegal immigrants have killed people.

Which is more important?

Which is getting the attention?

Which is Bush being forced to pay attention to?


What?
x2
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Post by woodchip »

Here's another way of looking at this. I think by now it is abundantly clear that the issue of Plame being a covert agent in not true. As I said before, a ex-CIA agent said Wilson would introduce Plame as his "CIA Wife" long before the Novack col. If Plame was not a covert agent in the five years prior to Novaks column, then why did we spend 35 million dollars on a investigation to discover who outed her? Everyone says Fitzgerald was such a competant prosecutor, if so...why did he drag on a investigation into a non-illegal occurance? Are we too believe he was either:
1) Sucking up to the liberal "death to Bush at any cost" crowd?
2) Immersing himself into the grandeur of being a special prosecutor?

Then we have dumb as dirt Libby who must have known that Plame was not covert, yet still tried to explain his actions while under oath. If it was me and I was under the gun, I would have said that until proof was presented Plame was covert and a law was broken, all I would present as testimony is uncle fifth. Libby's a lawyer and should know how to testify. Remind me to never retain his council.
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Post by Dedman »

I'm telling you dude, anyone named "Scooter" is not to be taken seriously.
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Post by Stryker »

Stryker wrote:No one was hurt during this incident.

Illegal immigrants have killed people.

Which is more important?

Which is getting the attention?

Which is Bush being forced to pay attention to?
I'm saying that there are more important things to worry about. Yes, there was a leak of information from our government. However, no harm was done. This "undercover" operative was not harmed in any way. There are bigger fish at the table now.

The situation in Iraq needs the president's attention. The swiss cheese we call our southern border needs the president's attention.

A leak of information that might or might not have been classified and did not seriously affect anyone does not need the president's attention.

I mean, yes it's bad, but Bush only has so much time in a day. I've led large projects before; I know what it's like to be under pressure from many different groups at once. You simply run out of hours in the day after a while. This public outcry over absolutely nothing isn't exactly helping alleviate the pressures of the job.

Americans are dying today. They are having their property destroyed. Shouldn't we be more concerned about this than about a possible leak of possibly classified information that is no longer relevant and did no one any harm?

There are more important things for a leader's attention to be focused on.

On a lighter note, I must agree with you, Dedman... somehow the name "Scooter" seems a little hard to take seriously... ;)
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Post by Lothar »

Stryker,

Bush is not the only person in the world, or the only person in the government. The government is quite capable of carrying on an investigation while the president pays attention to other things.
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Post by Zuruck »

What do you think, Rove in or out? Bush goes with his original promise or the "revised" one?
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Post by woodchip »

Zuruck wrote:What do you think, Rove in or out? Bush goes with his original promise or the "revised" one?
Why should Rove be out? He wasn't indicted. Bush said if any of his staff was indicted of a crime, they would be fired. So Libby is out and Rove stays. Sad for the Demoscammers as they desperately wanted Bush's top adviser to be chopped.
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Post by Zuruck »

woodchip, that is under the "revised" plan. The original was that anyone even involved in the leak would see the door. Bush changed his mind after Miller decided jailtime wasn't worth it and spilled. On a side note, this doesn't have much to do with Rove, but funny anyways.

Michael Brown, FEMA director.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051103/ap_ ... fema_brown
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Post by woodchip »

Zuruck, I hope you understand that Rove was not involved in any crime. Please explain why you think he was.
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Post by Zuruck »

Well, Valerie Plame was indeed classified, and so was her work. Now the law states that someone must divulge that info with intent, did he have intent? I don't know. I'm not saying throw him in jail. But Bush originally said if anyone in his administration was involved, they would be fired. Then, when he realized, probably after Rove told him, that his brain was involved, he switched it to "committed a crime". End of story.

It's just hard to figure the right side out woodchip. When Clinton got a blowjob and lied about it, the whole world had to stop because it was so bad, so morally tragic. Now, you guys don't seem to think there was anything wrong with what they did. George Tenet started the investigation, not the Democrats, so he obviously saw something he didn't like. If she was just a book-rat, it woulnd't have been a big deal. But she worked on classified work, and Bush decided to get back at Wilson, why else would they talk about his wife? If the reporters wanted to know who sent Wilson to Africa, a good politician would say what they always say. "An official at the CIA". Instead, knowing what it would do, they (Libby & Rove) told the reporters they knew would print it. And they did.
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Post by woodchip »

Zuruck, Plame may indeed have been doing classified work but she was not a covert agent and had not been for the five years prior to her being written about in Novaks col. Law only pertains to "covert" agents and not just anybody who works on classified material. If that was the case we shouldn't know George Tenant was director of the CIA.
Clinton got in a pickle not because of the BJ, rather because he lied about it under oath.
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Post by Zuruck »

That's not what I'm saying. Forget the covert agent crap, we're past that. I'm talking about what Bush said before he amended it.

Is a blowjob sex?
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Post by Dedman »

Zuruck wrote:Is a blowjob sex?
I asked Mrs. Dedman that question once. Her answer? "Yep, it's sex."
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Post by Lothar »

Jay Leno's answer:

"It isn't sex? They must not be doing it right."
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Post by woodchip »

So Zuruck, you are saying all it takes to be "involved" is to have some prosecutor bring someone in before a grand jury? Does "Tom Delay" ring any alarm bells?
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Post by Vander »

I think Zuruck is referencing Bush's claim that anyone involved in the leak would no longer be part of his administration. Bush later revised this to define "involved" up to the level of possible criminal activity when the story started heating up.

Legal standards should not be confused with Bush's personal standards. One would hope Bush has higher standards than what is strictly legal.
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Post by woodchip »

O.K. then...just how was Rove involved in a leak that didn't happen?
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Post by Vander »

As the Libby indictment points out, Plame's occupation was classified at the time the White House told reporters. Her status may not have met the requirements for prosecution under Intelligence Identities Protection Act, but her occupation was classified.
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Post by woodchip »

Well her husband had no problem introducing her as "My CIA Wife", so at that point Plame CIA's status was a well known item. Now if Rove or Libby had some private off the record conversation with people about a well circulated rumour, how are they involved in any sort of wrong doing. Shouldn't Fitzgerald have been going after Miller of Novak for putting Plames name out to the general public?
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Post by Vander »

"Well her husband had no problem introducing her as "My CIA Wife", so at that point Plame CIA's status was a well known item."

Well, if this is true, Wilson is open to criticism for it. He shouldn't have been doing such a thing if his wife's employment was classified. Either way, it doesn't really have a bearing on whether or not her employment at CIA was classified.

"Now if Rove or Libby had some private off the record conversation with people about a well circulated rumour, how are they involved in any sort of wrong doing."

Just some good water cooler gossip between friends, eh? How could they have known that the journalists they were talking to might actually write about it. I'm sure they were shocked, SHOCKED!

"Shouldn't Fitzgerald have been going after Miller of Novak for putting Plames name out to the general public?"

No. It wasn't Novak who made the information public, it was his source. Once Novak learned classified information, it's public. What he does with the information is after the fact.
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Post by Drakona »

Vander wrote:As the Libby indictment points out, Plame's occupation was classified at the time the White House told reporters. Her status may not have met the requirements for prosecution under Intelligence Identities Protection Act, but her occupation was classified.
Is that true? That's always been one of the intuitive sticking points for me on this story.

I've worked with people who work with classified data, and let me tell you, the standards they have to comply with are intense. There are stickers on every cabinet, box, and garbage can telling you what data can go where. Standards about what you can say to who on the phone, what media you can take with you into and out of restricted areas, who has to be escorted how. Totally separate networks and busses for different purposes, labels all over everything. It's not like you just forget something is classified. The data has red hot markers all over it, and there are posters on all of the walls telling you what'll happen if you mess up.

Even if nothing bad happens of it, standards violations and security breaches are the sorts of things that people and companies get big fines for. I simply can't fathom accidentally saying something classified to a reporter. That's a firing offense, easy. Anybody who would do that is way too stupid to be working with that sort of data.

I could be wrong, I suppose. Standards and compliance are different in different places... but still. This has always struck me as an immensely improbable assertion. If it's true, everyone involved should be fired or at least severely reprimanded, and the men with surgically removed senses of humor should be sent to inspect the system that allowed it to happen.
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Post by woodchip »

Vander wrote:
"Shouldn't Fitzgerald have been going after Miller of Novak for putting Plames name out to the general public?"

No. It wasn't Novak who made the information public, it was his source. Once Novak learned classified information, it's public. What he does with the information is after the fact.
So you are saying that a reporter has no moral obligation to not print information that may cause the death of another human being? Just because a reporter learns in confidence a person is say, a covert agent...does not mean that the public at large knows this. So where do you draw the line between the publics right to know and the protection of a human beings life?
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Post by DCrazy »

I think they should subpoena Novak, if for nothing else than to find out if he was the first one to know of Plame's identity. He did not commit a crime, however; whoever told him (potentially) did.
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Post by CUDA »

I was watching Hannity and Colmes last night, there is the possability, that it was her own husband that leaked she was a CIA op. they interviewed a retired General that says Plames husband Gov? Wilson told him in the fall of 2002 that Plame was a CIA op and that it was fairly common knowledge around Washington. I guess we shall see if its true or not. if it is true it does shed a whole new light on things


edit: heh I guess I should have read previous posts first huh
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