The Unforgivable Sin

[Bet51987]

I borrowed parts from another forum...

Originally Posted by Mark 3:20-30
I solemnly declare that any sin of man can be forgiven, even blasphemy against me; but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven. It is an eternal sin.

I can see why some want to separate ID from god. It may offer them a way out since a simple statement like this can condemn you to eternal pain in the burning fires. One no death bed confession could possibly save you from.

If that's true, then I am forever dead because in my moement of grief, I have denied the father, the son, and the holy spirit. If some of you get there, look me up, I'll be sitting with Carl Sagan.

It was said by jesus..... 8th paragraph down...to the right of the palm tree logo.

http://thestoryofjesus.com/part5_63.html

Blasphemy is explained better here...6th and 7th in red...

http://www.tne.net.au/~abdaacts/ups.html

Bettina

[Duper]

People who deliberately call good evil and evil good are so warped they will not want forgiveness, which is a prerequisite for being forgiven. Any sin can be dealt with by the Atonement blood of Christ and there is gracious assurance of the pardon and forgiveness against all kinds of sin, but this particular sin has no forgiveness.

Those who have performed The Unpardonable Sin have no qualms about insulting The Holy Spirit, showing neither remorse or repentance, like the Pharisees who plotted the death of Christ.

People who worry about committing this misdeed have not done so, and are not guilty of blaspheming against The Holy Spirit. The very fact that a person is concerned is the evidence that the unpardonable sin has not been executed by them.

You see. It's more a matter of the heart than it is the tongue.

And no one will be sitting with anyone in the "outer darkness". You will be utterly alone. And you are forgotten.

God understands a child's over a death, so your rants are no surprise to Him. Those who truely seek repentance will find it; and in turn will recieve forgiveness.

[Bet51987]

People who deliberately call good evil and evil good are so warped they will not want forgiveness, which is a prerequisite for being forgiven. Any sin can be dealt with by the Atonement blood of Christ and there is gracious assurance of the pardon and forgiveness against all kinds of sin, but this particular sin has no forgiveness.

Those who have performed The Unpardonable Sin have no qualms about insulting The Holy Spirit, showing neither remorse or repentance, like the Pharisees who plotted the death of Christ.

People who worry about committing this misdeed have not done so, and are not guilty of blaspheming against The Holy Spirit. The very fact that a person is concerned is the evidence that the unpardonable sin has not been executed by them.

You see. It's more a matter of the heart than it is the tongue.

And no one will be sitting with anyone in the "outer darkness". You will be utterly alone. And you are forgotten.

God understands a child's over a death, so your rants are no surprise to Him. Those who truely seek repentance will find it; and in turn will recieve forgiveness.

I would need sources for those quotes or its just more contradictory stuff.

Bettina

[Duper]

Bettina.. those are quotes from the lower article you posted.

read it through.

[Bet51987]

Bettina.. those are quotes from the lower article you posted.

read it through.

I know...I wanted different sources. Wherever I go to look this up, some say your doomed, and some say your not. Yet supposedly jesus made that statement then the churches changed the meaning. Where do I look for a "final solution" to the argument.

Bettina

[snoopy]

(About Matt. 12:32, the parallel passage in Matthew)
32. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come--In Mark the language is awfully strong, "hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"--or rather, according to what appears to be the preferable though very unusual reading, "in danger of eternal guilt"--a guilt which he will underlie for ever. Mark has the important addition (Mark 3:30), "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit." against the Holy Ghost--the unpardonable sin? One thing is clear: Its unpardonableness cannot arise from anything in the nature of sin itself; for that would be a naked contradiction to the emphatic declaration of Matthew 12:31, that all manner of sin is pardonable. And what is this but the fundamental truth of the Gospel? (See Acts 13:38,39, Romans 3:22,24, 1 John 1:7, &c.). Then, again when it is said (Matthew 12:32), that to speak against or blaspheme the Son of man is pardonable, but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is not pardonable, it is not to be conceived that this arises from any greater sanctity in the one blessed Person than the other. These remarks so narrow the question that the true sense of our Lord's words seem to disclose themselves at once. It is a contrast between slandering "the Son of man" in His veiled condition and unfinished work--which might be done "ignorantly, in unbelief" (1 Timothy 1:13), and slandering the same blessed Person after the blaze of glory which the Holy Ghost was soon to throw around His claims, and in the full knowledge of all that. This would be to slander Him with eyes open, or to do it "presumptuously." To blaspheme Christ in the former condition--when even the apostles stumbled at many things--left them still open to conviction on fuller light: but to blaspheme Him in the latter condition would be to hate the light the clearer it became, and resolutely to shut it out; which, of course, precludes salvation. Pharisees had not as yet done this; but in charging Jesus with being in league with hell they were displaying beforehand a malignant determination to shut their eyes to all evidence, and so, bordering upon, and in spirit committing, the unpardonable sin.

I don't have a more modern commentary I can reference... I might be able to borrow something of my dad's if this doesn't get better answered in the next week.

[Shoku]

Where do I look for a "final solution" to the argument.

Bettina

The best place to look is the Bible. The Bible states God's position very clearly - no need to wade through opposing human opinion. Of course, you'll need to know where to look, and that can be time consuming. So here are some scriptures that define sin:

Sin is lawlessness -1John 3:4

All humans are in a sinful state but can be forgiven if they accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus -Romans 3:23-25, 5:12-20

Sin, if unforgiven, leads to death -Romans 6:23

A person can grieve the holy spirit, yet recover -Ephesians 4:30, James 5:19, 20, 1Corinthians 6:9-11

However, willful practice of sin leads to death, from which there is no forgiveness. - Hebrews 6:4-8.

In short, the sinful state we are in because of Adam is the sin that Christ's ransom can remove from us. We did not chose to be in this state. But the willful sinner, the person who knowingly choses to disregard God's standards, will not be forgiven.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9:

"God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you, and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power."

[Bet51987]

"But the willful sinner, the person who knowingly choses to disregard God's standards, will not be forgiven."

That about sums it up then...and what snoopy said. So, I won't be alone in that dark place after all.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9:

"God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you, and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power."

Yet.....he loves me...
In fact, if you substitute the words 'god' and 'jesus' to "allah" you pretty much have a familiar rhetoric don't you.

Bettina

[Duper]

Bettina.. those are quotes from the lower article you posted.

read it through.

I know...I wanted different sources. Wherever I go to look this up, some say your doomed, and some say your not. Yet supposedly jesus made that statement then the churches changed the meaning. Where do I look for a "final solution" to the argument.

Bettina

This article explains it about the best I've heard or read. Anything that you find that is valid, will be pretty much what this guy posted.

the basic Idea behind it all was what I quoted. There is lots of debate on sillyness and worry and "I'm not worthy", but this is the answer you're lookin for... or at least the correct one. a buddy of mine went through this a number of years back and after a week of study, I came up with basically what the site you posted said.

And yes you would be alone. It won't be a big pitty party. or any kinda party. This was a popular sentitment in the 80's and 70's among the "Rock" crowd ... barring sweeping generalizations.... that "we're gunna have a party in hell!!" .. nope, sorry. You'll be reckoned as sin and forgotten. No second chances.

The long and the short (just to be redundant) is that if you make a statement like that in such a way that you commit an unforgivable sin, you were already condemed. Your heart was evil to start with.

Go back read through what is said carefully, trying not to read into what is said.

[fyrephlie]

13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from [bold]all things[/bold], from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

[Duper]

13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

....all that believe are justified...

There's the catch.

Those who believe will not blaspheme the Holy Spirit. God calls unto Himself, His own. They will not do this .

Bet,yelling at God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in anger is not blasphemy. Call the Holy Spirit, on the other hand, IS. But What is being said earlier is that you won't say this with sincerety unless your heart is already closed to God.

[Kilarin]

I can see why some want to separate ID from god. It may offer them a way out since a simple statement like this can condemn you to eternal pain in the burning fires.

Well, first, it's not an attempt to separate ID from God, it's an attempt to keep people from confusing the two separate issues. Second, not all Christians believe in a God who tortures people for all eternity. Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven.

then I am forever dead because in my moement of grief, I have denied the father, the son, and the holy spirit.

We have LOTS of texts declaring that God can forgive any sin. We have examples. David was forgiven for murder. And not just the murder of a stranger, Uriah was one of the men who had worked closely with David when he was on the run from Saul. Uriah was a friend, and David murdered him to cover up an affair with his wife. And yet, David was forgiven. And there are MANY other examples, including people who committed the same sin over and over, and yet eventually were forgiven. But note that in every single case we have a condition:
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Repentance is required. But ANY sin that is repented of can be forgiven.

But where does repentance come from? To start with, we don't WANT to repent, the sinful person doesn't even realize they NEED to repent.

2 Timothy 2:22-26 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
Also:
John 16:7,8 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

So God, through His Spirit, grants us convinction of sin and repentance. But we have free will, the power to reject that offered repentance. And THIS is where the "Unpardonable Sin" comes in. Note the context of the story in Mark 3 (and Matthew 12). Despite mounting evidence, despite multiple attempts by Christ to reach them, the scribes and pharisees rejected that offered repentance. They rejected it over and over and over, until they finally reached the point where they could accuse Christ of being demon possessed because he cast out demons.

This isn't about one mistake someone makes and God rejects them, it's exactly the opposite. To Blaspheme can mean "to disrespect", and that's exactly what it DOES mean in this context. It's about refusing to listen to the Holy Spirit's pleas to repent so adamantly, and for so long, that you can no longer HEAR those pleas at all anymore. It's about us rejecting God, not God rejecting us.

In Ephesians, Paul, talking about the exact same thing, said:
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Note that word "grieve". God chose to give us free will. He chose to give us the ability to thwart His will by rejecting him. This is a case where, as C. S. Lewis said: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done' and those to whom God says, 'Thy will be done.'" The sinner wins, they get their way, and God looses, He looses one of his Children who he desperately wanted to lead to repentance, but they will no longer listen, and this "Grieves" Him. This is not about God turning his back on us, it's about us turning our back on God, and refusing to ever turn back around.

In the final analysis, the "Unpardonable Sin" is the one you never ask forgiveness for. And you never ask forgiveness for it because you have determined to never hear the Holy Spirit's pleas in your heart.

So do you need to be worried that you might have "grieved the Holy Spirit" and committed the "unpardonable sin"?

Well, it is certainly true that continued rejection is leading in that direction. BUT it's HARD to totally shut the Holy Spirit out of your conscience, and it takes a lot more than being mad at God, or else poor Job wouldn't have had a chance. And just look at the Ninevites. They were considered some of the worst people on earth, and yet they still managed to repent, and when they did, God was there waiting for them with open arms.

If you can still hear the Holy Spirit well enough to WANT to repent, you haven't committed the unpardonable sin. God isn't sitting in front of a chalk board marking off all the people he can reject. God is like the father in the story of the prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32). He is waiting, and watching, so that he can see us when we are still "yet a great way off", and come running to greet us. If you are willing to listen, you will find He is still there waiting for you.

Kilarin