'Tis the Season

[Kilarin]

and you must not make anything like their works

The KJV renders Ex 23:24 as:
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works:
The NIV as:
Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices.

The word translated DO in the KJV, ACT in the NIV, and MAKE by the New World translation is "asah" and Strongs defines it thus:

1 to do, fashion, accomplish, make. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to do, work, make, produce. 1a1a to do. 1a1b to work. 1a1c to deal (with). 1a1d to act, act with effect, effect. 1a2 to make. 1a2a to make. 1a2b to produce. 1a2c to prepare. 1a2d to make (an offering). 1a2e to attend to, put in order. 1a2f to observe, celebrate. 1a2g to acquire (property). 1a2h to appoint, ordain, institute. 1a2i to bring about. 1a2j to use. 1a2k to spend, pass. 1b (Niphal). 1b1 to be done. 1b2 to be made. 1b3 to be produced. 1b4 to be offered. 1b5 to be observed. 1b6 to be used. 1c (Pual) to be made. 2 (Piel) to press, squeeze.

I'm going to have to say that the KJV and NIV both seem a better translation here in my opinion. Especially when you consider the following:

Job 38:31-33: Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

The Hebrew word Mazzarah, rendered as Mazzaroth in the KJV, refers to the Zodiac. The source of the Zodiac is Astrology. (Astronomy was just a means to Astrology until very recently on a historical scale). Astrology and the Zodiac are about as pagan as you can get. And yet, here we find the voice of God himself using pagan imagery to illustrate God's power.

While not denying that pagan imagery can be a problem in many contexts, obviously God does not oppose it's use universally.

[Shoku]

Regarding the pagan origin of Christmas customs:

That is an undeniable fact.

What does this imply about the holiday?

It is a holiday built upon lies. Lies that originated with the worship of pagan gods. The fact that those gods are no longer being openly worshiped (at least to the extent that they once were), does not negate the fact that the traditions associated with their worship are still lies - even when adopted by modern "Christians." By adopting such worldly practices, the "Christian" is polluting their worship with lies, and in that sense they are perpetuating the worship of those pagan gods.

James said: "Religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world . . . don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."

Jesus said we must worship with "truth," not lies. The lies which originated in pagan religions are in direct opposition to the pure, truthful worship required by God. Jesus also said we are to be "no part of the world" just as he was no part of the world. So why would a Christian knowingly adopt into their worship worldly customs that originated in pagan religions?

I have read comments like these in the above posts:

"I see absolutely no contradiction of "truth" there."

"Worship God as I believe is right"


The only opinion that matters regarding the worship of God, is God's. We cannot inject our opinion and reshape our worship into something we prefer, and expect God to be OK with it.

Jesus gave an example of this. He said: "Watch out for false prophets. They come in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes. or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

If we corrupt pure worship with pagan idols, should Jesus still accept us as his followers?

I said in my above post that the apostle Paul would have been outraged if the Galatians wanted to celebrate holidays that were of pagan origin. I can see no other possibility. Paul said: "The sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?" And to Timothy, Paul said: "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. . . . Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly."

[dissent]

So I like pine and fir trees. Sue me.

Sheesh, give it a rest already. And have a Merry Christmas.

[Top Gun]

But Shoku, you're still not answering my question. How exactly is the celebration of Christmas built upon lies? I have no idea how you can say that using practices that pagans may have celebrated 2500 years ago is tantamount to worshipping an ancient set of deities. That's just ludicrous. Christmas is not built upon a lie; in the Christian sense, its whole purpose is to remember the birth of Christ. That's it. As far as I'm concerned, A Charlie Brown Christmas pretty much sums it all up. (And, God forbid, it even has a tree in it. ) You tell me: how does setting up a pine tree in your living room or giving someone you love a present have anything at all to do with paganistic practices? As Lothar said, if people use part of an ancient tradition in the worship of God, how does that demean God in any way? It would be like saying that the use of parts of traditional Jewish blessings in the Catholic Mass insults Christ, since the Jewish people don't believe that he is their Messiah. It's the same argument either way. How about another example: do you think that the Olympics are sacreligious because their opening and closing ceremonies contain elements inspired by ancient Greek worship? Would you think it wrong for a Christian to participate in those activities?

[fyrephlie]

You tell me: how does setting up a pine tree in your living room or giving someone you love a present have anything at all to do with paganistic practices?

because those are PAGANISTIC PRACTICES. i mean, i agree with your point, christians took it and ran with it. go christians, over the relatively few years there have actually been christians, they have taken many of the old pagan practices that existed before them, that their families practiced for generations and molded them into something to praise their lord. but they are still paganistic practices just the same.

does that make it wrong, i don't really think so.

as for the olympics, well, there is a line to be drawn. would be appropriate for a christian to practice in a wiccan goddess ceremony, or spiritual channeling seeking the 'higher self', which are CLEARLY paganistic? sometimes they do? since the olympics aren't truly a pagan practice, nor do they continue with organized religous ceremony for or against god, then perhaps it is safe.

[Top Gun]

I understand that these traditions may have been originally practiced by pagans. However, when you look around at just about anyone who celebrates Christmas today and practices them (basically, a vast majority of the country), do you really think that anyone knows/cares that this is true? These traditions have become completely secularized; they really don't have any attachment at all anymore to what was done hundreds of years in the past. Even when this detachment was not there, and when the early church borrowed the use of some of these traditions, I don't see anything at all wrong with that, just as Lothar was saying. They weren't borrowed because they celebrated a certain pagan deity; they were borrowed because they were things that people were intimately familiar with, and their use in a Christian setting might bring people to a better understanding of the Christian faith. Look at the example of St. Patrick and the shamrock, for instance; or even better, take a look at the techniques that Central/South American missionaries used in instructing natives about the Christian faith. They often tied local traditions into their teachings to help elaborate on theological principles. In fact, if you take a look at many older Latin American churches, you'll notice that they have artwork very similar to that found on more ancient structures. The local builders used symbolism that they and the rest of the population were familiar with; the purpose wasn't sacreligious in nature, but rather to acknowledge what the people were familiar with. I think the same holds true for the origins of Christmas traditions; the fundamental property of the evergreen (life in the midst of the "death" of winter) forms a nice image for Christ's birth, and I've already mentioned the gift-giving.

Regarding the Olympics, I was really stretching on that question, mainly because I wanted to see what type of reaction it would get. As far as I'm concerned, the fact that people dress up as Greek priestesses or make reference to the Greek pantheon doesn't imply agreement with the ancient Greeks' system of worship; it simply acknowledges the culture that produced the ancient Games and the reason for their creation. (In fact, that's another example of a pagan tradition that is used today for a purpose other than its original one.) As far as I'm concerned, were I to participate in something like a Native American spirit dance (not that I ever would ), I wouldn't feel that I was compromising my own faith in any way. I would view it as respecting and partaking in another culture's traditions; since my own beliefs are different from theirs, I'm not participating to the same degree that they are.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I think we've fallen off track on the discussion and we've really lost point on what I'm trying to bring out. So I'm going to try and get it back on track.

A few things that I want to point out

I don't see anything at all wrong with that, just as Lothar was saying. They weren't borrowed because they celebrated a certain pagan deity; they were borrowed because they were things that people were intimately familiar with, and their use in a Christian setting might bring people to a better understanding of the Christian faith

A Charlie Brown Christmas pretty much sums it all up.

As Lothar said.....

So I like pine and fir trees. Sue me.

Here, we are seeing the opinions of people. But my main point was what the BIBLE says and how it condemns certain things, but men have thrown their own "reasoning" into the mix and determine that it no longer applies. Here's where I have a problem with this. As a matter of fact, this is what MANY people have a problem with when it comes to dealing with Christians. It seems to be common practice for them to disregard a teaching in the bible if it "inconviences" them or they determine that it no longer applies because "We're now in a new day and age and that stuff no longer applies, etc..." , but they keep the stuff that is advantageous to them.

In other words, Christians seem to be full of hypocrisy. Taking and adhering to items in the bible which support their cause, but for those subjects in which the bible disagrees with what they are doing, many Christians disregard them rather than change the teachings of the church to fit more in line with the bible.

That's really the point that I'm trying to bring out. This goes FAR DEEPER than a Tree and a fat guy in a red suit.

[Dedman]

Those who use Holiday instead of Christmas, do so to not offend a certain segment of our population. They forget that using the word "holiday" alienates many christians.

Tell me again why Christians should be above alienation?

[Lothar]

my main point was what the BIBLE says and how it condemns certain things

And my main point is that the Bible doesn't condemn what you say it condemns.

Whenever you read text -- ANY text -- you interpret it. You decide what certain words and phrases mean, how broadly it's meant to be applied, and so on. It's your responsibility to try to understand it as the original author intended it. The Bible is no different. Neither you nor I have a perfect understanding of what it's intended to mean. We both insert our own "reasoning" whenever we interpret the text. And it's our responsibility to develop that "reasoning" so that we can better understand what the author meant by what he wrote. Very often, the "obvious" meaning is not correct.

I gave my reasoning for why I think the meanings you gave for the aforementioned passages, and your attempts to connect it to modern Christmas celebrations, are wrong. I'd appreciate if you tried to interact with that, rather than just quoting another Bible passage at me and assuming it will convince me. I'm plenty familiar with the text of the Bible; I know what it says about the Israelites adopting the practices of surrounding nations. I just don't think those texts apply to modern Christmas celebrations in the way you say they do.

[Gooberman]

1%++ <3 Lothar

[Admiral Thrawn]

Goob, I'll bring you some pom-poms and a baton hehe

Someone mentioned the commercialization of Christmas, I thought this article was interesting. It also briefly mentions how the puritans felt about it.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/07/ ... dcohen.php

[Shoku]

But Shoku, you're still not answering my question.

TopGun - Sorry this reply took so long - I have been very busy. You ask some very good questions. I will do my best, in the space provided, to answer them. I will keep this as brief as possible.

How exactly is the celebration of Christmas built upon lies?

It is built upon lies because the majority of the customs associated with it stem from pagan religious practices. Pagan religion is not true worship, it is false worship (and therefore a lie), whose origin is with demons, not God.

1Corinthians 10: 20, 21:
"The sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God . . . You cannot have part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons."

The Encyclopedia Americana, 1959 edition, Volume 6, page 622:
?Most of the customs now associated with Christmas were not originally Christmas customs but rather were pre-Christian and non-Christian customs taken up by the Christian church. Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merry-making customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles.?

Professor Edvard Lehmann writes in Hastings? Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics:
?Most of the Christmas customs now prevailing in Europe, or recorded from former times, are not genuine Christian customs, but heathen customs which have been absorbed or tolerated by the Church. . . . The Christmas feast has inherited these customs chiefly from two sources?from Roman and from Teutonic paganism.?

You tell me: how does setting up a pine tree in your living room or giving someone you love a present have anything at all to do with paganistic practices?
As Lothar said, if people use part of an ancient tradition in the worship of God, how does that demean God in any way?

Lothar is entitled to his opinion, as is everyone else. However, the opinion I'm more concerned with is God's. God does not change. -Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8.

Consider the case of the Israelites whom God liberated from slavery in Egypt and brought into the ?promised land? of Canaan (later called Palestine). While in Egypt, the Israelites had become acquainted with many religious customs of that land. The inhabitants of their new home, Canaan, too, practiced many religious traditions. What if the Jews were to adapt some of the religious practices of Egypt and Canaan to the worship of the true God? Would God take the view that ?it makes no difference as long as the worship now honors me??

Note God?s own opinion of this matter, as recorded at Deuteronomy 12:30, 31:

?Be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying 'How do these nations serve their gods?' We will do the same.' You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates . . . See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it."

God is not warning the Jews against worshiping pagan gods. God is warning them not to add pagan practices to their worship of Him.

You may recall God?s displeasure at the nation of Israel when they adopted the idolatrous Egyptian practice of calf worship. Even though they claimed that the calf represented God and that this was a ?festival to Yahweh,? God said to Moses: ?Your people . . . have become corrupt.??Exodus 32:4, 5, 7.

Concerning pagan religious practices, Christians are commanded: ?Touch no unclean thing.? -2 Corinthians. 6:17 The Bible also admonishes: ?Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor.??Ephesians. 4:25.

Can we "put away falsehood" and at the same time engage in a celebration admittedly rooted in unclean paganism that suggests a false date for the birth of Jesus Christ?

The Apostle Paul mentions in his letter to the Romans that some will be punished because of how they worship:

Romans 1: 18, 21, 25:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness . . . For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened . . .They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator."

Jesus also denounced false worship. In Matthew 15 he derides the Pharisees by quoting Isaiah:
Matthew 15:8:
"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men."

If "rules taught by men" can make a worshiper of God a hypocrite (as stated by Jesus at Matthew 15:7), then certainly if a worshiper adopts pagan teachings, which are from the demons (see 1 Corinthians quote above), then Jesus would also denounce him (or her).

How about another example: do you think that the Olympics are sacreligious because their opening and closing ceremonies contain elements inspired by ancient Greek worship?
Would you think it wrong for a Christian to participate in those activities?

This is off-topic. But here are a few things to consider:

The opening and closing ceremonies of the Olympics do have origin in pagan religion. The original Olympics were designed to fan the flames of worship. They were born as a religious festival to honor Zeus, supreme among the Olympian gods. These games were held every four years, from 776 B.C. until 394 A.D., when the ?Christianized? Roman emperor Theodosius decreed that ?pagan festivities? should cease.

Today many of the ancient Olympic traditions remain, and new ones have been added, like the parade of flags. This nationalistic parade is actually a form of idolatry.

?Early flags were almost purely of a religious character. . . . The aid of religion seems ever to have been sought to give sanctity to national flags.??Encyclopedia Britannica.

?The flag, like the cross, is sacred. . . . The rules and regulations relative to human attitude toward national standards use strong, expressive words, as, ?Service to the Flag,? . . . ?Reverence for the Flag,? ?Devotion to the Flag.?? ?The Encyclopedia Americana.

Since Christians are told to "Flee from Idolatry." (1 Corinthians 10:14), should they partake in a ceremony were devotion to a national "idol" is encouraged, and in every sense expected, if not demanded?

?Christians refused to . . . sacrifice to the [Roman] emperor?s genius?roughly equivalent today to refusing to salute the flag or repeat the oath of allegiance.??Those About to Die (1958), by Daniel P. Mannix, page 135.

[Mobius]

Jesus: Where and when did I say to give each other shizloads of presents on my birthday.

[Testiculese]

It is built upon lies because the majority of the customs associated with it stem from pagan religious practices. Pagan religion is not true worship, it is false worship (and therefore a lie), whose origin is with demons, not God.

1Corinthians 10: 20, 21:
"The sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God . . . You cannot have part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons."

A very quick aside...if you changed that to Republican and Democrat, doesn't that look like a smear campaign? It was in their best interests to make the pagan religion look awful.