Paint it Black

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:01 pm

Well well. Seems like Roidy's homeland is presenting a black underbelly that I would not have imagined:

"Australian Prime Minister John Howard condemned the weekend's attacks by thousands of young white men on people of Arabic and Mediterranean background."

So whats the problem here. Jobs? Color? Race?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4521442.stm

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:31 pm

I'd say the problem is the same as it is here. Those without a brain believe that every Muslim is a bad one, and the govt isn't helping it at all. Didn't we have some problems after 9/11?

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:51 pm

woodchip wrote:So whats the problem here. Jobs? Color? Race?

Probably all of the above, but it would be interesting to hear from our southern (hemisphere) neighbors. I think humans go for visual cues because vision is one of the more accutely developed senses. If dogs were the most intelligent species on the planet, perhaps they would opt for using their olfactory sense - discrimination would have all sorts of different outcomes.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:46 pm

Zuruck wrote:I'd say the problem is the same as it is here. Those without a brain believe that every Muslim is a bad one, and the govt isn't helping it at all. Didn't we have some problems after 9/11?

Yeah but Australia didn't have a 9/11

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:05 pm

Yes I'm aware of that woodchip. But their govt is feeding the same bs as ours, henceforth, the locals feel like taking justice in their own hands. It's the American/Australian way of life, kill then ask questions.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:56 pm

Just what BS would that be? Seems the Bush admin and the american govt. in general went out of their way to defend muslums in general (read conservative govt.). Result? No riots.
OTOH Australia is a liberal controlled govt. and somehow the people are running amuck over there. I wonder if their press is attcking the Aussy govt. as being responsible for the riots (as they would the Bush govt. if the riots were over here)?

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:38 pm

Ahem, BS = keeping everybody scared.

Why is it, that during the run-up to the last election, that we saw terror alerts nearly every day? It was always the same, a threat with no specifics targetting bridges, malls, anything to be scared of. Nothing ever happened, and since the election, the threats have pretty much ceased. Bush & Co are good at using fear, and I'm sure the Australian govt is using the same tactic. Youthful stupidity is what I'd say contributed, not Bush's leadership.

When was the last elevated terror level woodchip?

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:58 pm

Have no idea. If your theory is correct we should see them start up in the next few months for the senate and congressional elections next fall.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:39 pm

Zuruck wrote:When was the last elevated terror level

Right after the bombing in London, then it came back down like a few weeks later.
I think you would find that the alerts and their movement up and down never stopped only the press' interest in reporting them has...

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:30 am

ok, first off i'm very surprised at the LACK of background information in that BBC article.
let me fill in the blanks of what i know about what's going on:

For some time now a group of young Lebanese, what could perhaps be defined as a "gang", has been pushing people around at Cronulla beach (it's near Sydney). They intimidate people and basically just make total nusenses of themselves. It's not coz they are Lebanese, it's just coz they are dickheads. Every society has it's bullys.
The other locals are sick of it, but as we all know dickheads are everywhere, so most of us just ignore them and get on with our lives.

A few days ago however things escalated and this Gang beat up 2 lifeguards. In Australia, being a lifeguard is somewhat of an honourable position, they are appreciated for what they (voluntarily) do and everyone respects them, it's a part of Australian culture. So anyway this Gang beat up these 2 lifeguards, i don't know why, i imagine the lifeguards tried to tell the gang to get lost and things escalated from there.

For some of the beach locals, this was the last straw, they felt they were honour bound to do something. To beat up a lifeguard is like beating up am ambulence driver, a despicable act.

Unfortunately, as has already been said: this was a gang of Lebanese youths. This is most unfortunate because it has likely effected the common local concept of ethnic people.

Anyway as i said it was the last straw for the locals, who have been having run-ins with this gang for years. No doubt while drinking one night, a group of locals decided they should stand up to these troublemakers, as vigilantes. Phone Text messages were sent around organising the "fight day", one such text message in particular was forwarded from person to person and was WIDELY read, it was calling for a "Leb and Wog Bashing Day" (Lebs and Wogs are pseudo-offensive-racist slurs referring to Lebanese and Italians, i say "pseudo" because they embrace the terms as their own and as a result thesedays it's used just as often as a term of endeerment for ethnic people, used by ethnic and non-ethnic alike ). I guess the Gang heard about this as well, and iirc likewise they also organised a counter-offensive of their own (From the wide multitude of ethnic friends i've had, i know they are very social groups, WIIIIIDE circle of friends. and god do they know howto party

. feel the love) achem, yes so anyway, it was no trouble for the gang to organise more friends to meet the chalenge.

At this point i should like to point out something that you may not know... Groups like this ethnic gang, can fester a quiet RASISM inside. I HAVE met a number of ethnic people who because of their heritage think they are better than everyone else. I have seen Leb against Wog against Skip ("skips" are aussies who just look like any old North European, basically "white people", but it likely includes Aboriginal Australians too*)

*That's the real thing here... this is not a Racist issue as in "skips against wogs", it's an issue of EVERYONE against ASSHOLES. An aboriginal would have been fighting hand in hand.

Remeber how I mentioned earlier that it was unfortunate that the gang was Lebanese? It's because Lebanese, like most arabs, are quite identifyable as "Arab looking". This unfortunately gives people (who may not know better, as most of the idiots involved were drunk outof their skulls) the opportunity to RACIALLY profile their targets in this upcomming fight. It got to the level where the drunken mob thought they could attack absolutely anyone who looked Arab. Which is of course rediculous - Sydney like most Australian Citys has a HUGE ethnic population. But i guess when you are stupid, drunk outof your skull, psyched up for a fight, and part of a mob mentallity: these sorts of things are not on your mind

.

So this is my list of what is to blame:

The Racist ethnic gang of assholes who started all this ★■◆● with their racist attitude towards everyone, acting like they could push around anyone they wanted because "we'll get the Leb boys round to bash ya fuckin head in mate", that is the kinda ★■◆● these gangs say, aussies are unfortuantely quite familure with their holier-than-thou racist-bull-★■◆● - i can say that quote above with an ethnic accent and every aussie will probably know what i'm talking about. And thankfully we know it's just a minority.
The various individual and collective ethnic communitys for not doing enough individually and collectively to quell this kindof racist mentality among their youths.
The idiots on BOTH (mostly the aussie idiots) sides who let themselves be incited into such a mass violence by simple phone text messages.
Alcohol. I think alcohol was a huge catalyst for this. In all the footage i've seen there are bottles flying everywhere. And i can't understand how anyone who calls themselves an Australian could possibly be incited into the kindof blatantly racist targetting that went on in that huge fight, unless they were drunk outof their skulls.

I am very ashamed at this, and am having a lot of trouble understanding how this happened. All Australians think of their country as inherently welcoming and multicultural, we are PROUD of the mixed nature of our collective heritage and how it doesn't matter where you come from we'll still call you an aussie.
So these events have shocked us all. We are shocked kindof like how USA was shocked when it was hit by the 911 attacks, and you're whole concept of "America is safe" was brought into question... well i think a lot of Australians are now questioning our proud claims of an accepting multicultural non-racist society

. I was watching the TV, mouth open, sayign to myself "is this happening in MY country?!"

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:45 am

If anyone would like a dose of aussie/ethnic culture. Try to track down a very-popular low-budget Australian comedy series called "Pizza". Stereotypes (incl racial) are one of the central themes of this hilarious show

(it's humour is kinda like Southpark's).

http://www20.sbs.com.au/pizza/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_(Aus ... elevision)

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:56 am

Good post Roidi. Interesting.

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:01 am

Oh, something else that is probabaly relevant. In the taunting these gangs engage in, in their speech they gladly draw attention to their ethnicity, as it is the very base of their "I'm gonna get my huge family to come and bash joo" threats.

As a result, getting into any form of verbal fight with these guys is BOUND to end up in racist remarks, probabaly from both sides. This is probabaly the fuel for the INITIAL source of the angry text message calling for "Wog Bashing Day" - i'm quite confident that whoever sent the text messages using THAT language was comming at it from that kindof context, that although everyone just hated this ethnic gang because they were assholes, whoever sent the message KNEW it would end up as a racism issue - because no matter what you say to gangs like this, they will turn absolutely everything into a racist name calling match, with the final (and generally somewhat valid too) threat of getting their wide circle of friends/family to "come bash joo".

This is why i said that "idiots" are one of the needed ingredients to start a huge riot fight like this... because most smart people realise pretty quick that they can't verbally spar with these ethnic gangs without it getting into racist remarks - so smart people dont bother, they know the best course of action generally is to ignore anything they say. Most people know where that kindof tit-for-tat insulting leads if no-one is prepared to back down - it leads to a fight.

Woodchip, in the original post wrote:So whats the problem here. Jobs? Color? Race?

Hormones, Pride, Alcohol, and Nationalism.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:22 am

Zuruck wrote:Ahem, BS = keeping everybody scared.

Why is it, that during the run-up to the last election, that we saw terror alerts nearly every day? It was always the same, a threat with no specifics targetting bridges, malls, anything to be scared of. Nothing ever happened, and since the election, the threats have pretty much ceased. Bush & Co are good at using fear, and I'm sure the Australian govt is using the same tactic. Youthful stupidity is what I'd say contributed, not Bush's leadership.

When was the last elevated terror level woodchip?

AH yes its the governments that are keeping everyone scared, :rolleyes: the Terrorist blowing up civilian buildings all over the world have nothing to do with it. wake up Z. if it wasnt for the Terrorists then there would be no need for a warning system, but then our government is damned if they do, damned if they dont. they put up a warning system and so its not perfect but it is workable. but then you blast it, but if they didnt put up a warning system and we had an attack you'd blast them, make up your mind Z which way do you want it?

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:55 am

Australians arn't particularly scared CUDA, it's the nature of Australians that we are world travelers. We understand very well how dangerous the world can be, and accept it (perhaps the "stiff upper lip" mentality inherited from the British). We don't freak out particularly much when a whole bunch of us are blown up in some foreign country. There is an expression "Aussie Battlers", which indicates how we see ourselves as never saying die, just going with the flow and not panicing even when we get out asses handed to us.

Our politicians often try to use scare tactics, but the media (the 2 government owned channels anyway, ironic yes?) can be quite adept at calling scaremongering "scaremongering" when they see it.

John Howard got into office BOTH TIMES with lies.
The 1st time it was because he campaigned on a "NO GST" platform. He promiced that he wouldn't introduce a GST tax (whereas the leader of the major opposition party said he couldn't give that guarentee). But then a few years later HE INTRODUCED A GST TAX.
(i can't remember what he blamed for this)

The 2nd time (his re-ellection for a second "term") it was because he showed everyone footage the Australian coastguard/navy had taken of "Illegal immigrants on boats, throwing their children overboard to distract the coastguard/navy so they (the illegal immigrants) could reach the Australian mainland. He was then re-ellected on a "Harsh on Immigration" campaign platform. But soon after the ellection it was discovered that the videos were a SHAM! There were no children thrown overboard. (blame for this was placed on the NAVY).
(this was called the "children overboard scandal")

Because the currently government got quite an overwhelming win in that last ellection, they now control the senate. They only needed one minister's vote (which they got) to pass the new HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL anti-terror bill into law a couple of weeks ago. Everyone hates this bill and thought it was stupid. Especially the anti-sedition clauses, which some of you may remember i started a thread about in October: Sedition - Mediawatch (Oct 7)

what i'm saying is that Australians are currently quite experienced with being lied to for political gain, incl terrorism scaremongering, i like to think we are quite apt at spotting it when we see it.

(we are rather scared of an attack on our hometurf now however, thx to our involvement in the iraq war. we definitely had some scaremongering by teh government to try to drum up support for it's latest anti-terrorism bill (mentioned earlier))

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:52 am

Hmmm...terror warnings every week last cycle. now, nothing, and it's not bad reporting will, it's bad politics. Fear makes people act in weird ways, voting a second term for a dumbazz, stuff like that. all presidents of all countries do that, why are you so surprised by that?

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:17 am

Except your theory neglects to consider the possibility that folk might just not determine that the increase in terror alerts might also indicate that the "dumbazz" is not doing a good job, so they might want to vote him out of office.

People are fickle.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:36 am

dissent, make sense damn you. the terror alert thing is a fact, it's not that hard, it's not just Bush, I'm sure it would be the Dems if they had the bag, they simply don't. Every govt uses fear, it controls people, makes them easier to manipulate. Do you honestly think, that if Bush wanted to pass the Patriot Act now, instead of during the aftermath of 9/11, he would be able to? No, the public would not stand for it. But in the guise of saving america from more devastation, it passes.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:13 pm

Gosh golly, Zuruck; sorry. Didn't realize you had a red phone on your desk at home. So how many times a day do you chat up Dubya?

Keep us apprised, won't you?

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:00 pm

Wow, some people have no logic nor intuition. Look at it, think about it. It makes sense. It makes a whole lot more sense than simply "the liberal media isn't reporting it"...that's just stupid, hence why Will said it.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:41 pm

Uh yah, and some folk lack the ability to read. All I did was suggest another plausible possibility to your conspiracy theory. Talk about someone who gets their BVD's into a twist. I'll even give you an example: the current continuing security situation in Iraq is prompting an increase in (especially Sunni) voters who are indicating that they want to vote out the current government for lack of performance. And they're dealing with actual terror, not just terror alerts.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:48 pm

Yea but dissent, we're not talking about Iraq. We're talking about what is causing people to act out against Arab people. Just open your eyes for a second, get away from defending your heroes, and think about it. ALL political parties do it, it's nothing new, it's the way politics work.

I hope this election works for them, but what good is it with 150k troops in tow? They have to be able to sustain this kind of performace without US involvement and direction. People say give it time, yes, give it time without losing more lives and not made for tv elections.

I beg the question, do any of the Republicans on this board think that Bush has done ANYTHING wrong?

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:54 am

Zuruck wrote:Yea but dissent, we're not talking about Iraq. We're talking about what is causing people to act out against Arab people. Just open your eyes for a second, get away from defending your heroes, and think about it. ALL political parties do it, it's nothing new, it's the way politics work.

Ok, Z, here's how I've read your posts so far -
1. You made a statement that there were a lot of terrorist alerts in the run-up to the last US election, and few since then.
2. You made a claim that this was due to a conspiracy of the Bush White House to use fear of terror attacks to cow the sniveling mindless American lackey voters into voting his regime back into office.

I suggested the possibility that this claim of yours, if true, could easily have backfired on the Republicans if people had decided the GOP could not relieve their fears, and instead voted for a change in the leadership, just as some Iraqis are now doing.

Care to explain to me how I was defending the Bush administration? I was pointing out how your claim of a conspiracy to manipulate the vote could have blown up in their faces.

fyrephlie · Post by **fyrephlie** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:07 am

wow... that is a lot of /offtopic guys.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:21 am

Yeah. I got distracted. Nobody else was posting.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:06 am

We're all watching for entertainment

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:23 am

On the contrary, I believe our discussion to be not that far off topic. I apologize for not getting exactly what you were saying, but I am used to will, woodchip, and lothar spouting off crap with absolutely no brains behind it.

Now, in reference to why they would do what they did. The entire election, aside from a few minor things, was based on the war on terror. Bush made the centerpiece of his campaign the ability to protect America. With the terror bells ringing, we had him perched on top whistling down at the chaos of the American public. The talk of flip-flops, the swift boat people, it was all war and fight talk. You're right, it could have blown up in their faces, but you have to agree, this administration does things just a bit differently that the status quo. Rove changed the way the white house operated.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:45 pm

Roid, your characterisation of the "Aussie Battler" is completely wrong. The Aussie Battler most definitely does NOT "go with the flow". The AB fights tirelessly to overcome adversity, AND NEVER QUITS. That's about as far away as "go with the flow" as can possibly be imagined.

Also, there's no such thing any more. The advent of the VISA card saw to that.

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:39 am

My "go with the flow" comment was referring to not panicing. So that would mean when faced with adversity: not running around in circles like a chook with it's head cut off.
But just dealing with it.

Nothing that's happened to Australia has as yet warrented a military response. Not even the Bali bombing. The world will always have it's fanatical religious serial killers, if you think you can avoid them you're only hiding from reality.

Everytime a crocodile takes a human, we don't go out and shoot a bunch of crocs. If we can track down the particular "problem croc" then we might, so we can move it (i'm sure you're all familure with the process thx to Steve Erwin) or maybe kill it. But there's just a certain amount of acceptance that if you swim in a saltwater river, you may get taken. And if you swim on a section of beach that is not protected by shark nets, you may get eaten by a shark. Small deaths are just an everyday fact of life, nothing worth going on a crusade about.

There are countless ways to die. Being killed by a religious fanatic is too rare for your everyday aussie to bother worrying about - just add it to the list and go surfing the next morning as usual.

Paint it Black

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