Joke ? Not

[snoopy]

You know, I guess discussing things here at E&C like this just help me to see how much I (and others) can be blinded by our emotions. In a way, it helps to keep me sharp... helps me to keep from getting too set in my opinion and be able to thing about other people's side a little bit. Palz... you are right- we all need to give each other's side a chance. I'm looking forward to Bet's defense of the sticker based on the content of the Bible.

[Bet51987]

Ok, I have to come here and apologize for the Tricord reference. Geez, I never would have done that, no matter how many times I implied that I would. I was just irked because I thought Drakona was being pompous with her post. I just don't agree with her take on the sticker because although she nitpicked it to death and got a major pat on the back, I can still find reference to every word in the bible so IMO that sticker is much more correct than not. I can't defend myself because like I said before, I'm not clever with words like she and lothar are but I can supply a link to every word in the sticker if asked.

Another thing, is that this morning, for the first time, I saw myself differently. I saw myself as a hypocrite, a liar, and a fake. I stood up in front of over three hundred people, singing ave maria with tears running down like the virgin mary....and I wowed them... but I what I really did was sell them a fake bill of goods, all from the little performer who helps fill the collection plate. Some even imagine that god is standing right next to me.

After the service, there was coffee and snack time where people mingle with the priest. I try to find a corner to stand in but some find me anyway. They talk about how much inspiration I give them, and today I felt like screaming....."I'm an Atheist!!".....but I can't do it, and thats what bugs me the most. I don't believe at all....but I can't tell them that. I won't hurt them, the priest, or my dad, so instead I hold it in and continue the acting until I come here to the DBB. Then I let some venting go.... especially if it's about the bible.

Again, I'm sorry for the Tricord reference and thanks to those who stuck up for me. I really needed to read that today...I love you.

Bettina

[fyrephlie]

Bet:

i have some questions, i am sure they are questions that have been asked, but forgive me for not trying to search these forums to find them.

i understand a lot now of how you came to the conclusions that you have. i suspect that you are falling more out of the category of 'human: questioning', it seems as though you are really determined in your views, and take them VERY seriously.

1. my first question is, what are you doing now? what i mean is, are you looking for answers, have you tried digging deep to figure things out? i am certain that you, like the rest of us, are not a card carrying member of the 'answers to everything' library, but i wonder, since you have taken a spirititual and logical descision to renounce your belief in god, have you tried to believe in something, or find something to believe in?

1.5 do you believe that there is some type of higher power at all?

2. question the second is, have you talked to your father, who (it sounds like) you are most worried about hurting because of this? i understand that you don't want to hurt him, or anyone else. but by the same token, no one SHOULD be hurt by this. i can understand disapointment, and concern if you do not believe what he, and the church, have tried so hard to teach you. but we are human. it may seem silly, but just telling him, (and not shouting "I'm an athiest! I don't believe it all!") not only that you feel the way you do, but WHY you feel the way you do, might help some. it did for me when i was that age. not to sound silly, but it provided a 'get out of church free' card, my mom was willing to support my descision, it was hard for her (and still is to this day, she says she keeps praying about it), but it was good for both of us. i myself would feel concerned if this were to come out later, and i thought about you singing in church, and knowing that you were 'not crying for love of christ' in front of 300 people, if i was your father. of course i don't know him, or you, well enough, but maybe it would do you some good to at least TRY to explain it. maybe starting with your priest (especially if it is the one you say you respect so much) might help, i have actually known priests/pastors that have helped with people who were not in faith explain it to loved ones.

3. this isn't a question, but more of some imparting of knowledge. it's hard to feel the way you do. i lived with it and still do. i hate the state of organized religion, and don't beleive much in the bible either. i 'know' what i feel is right, but by the same token, most christians 'know' what they feel is right. bottling it up is never good, and venting loudly at a forum of people doesn't help much either. i strongly encourage you to go somewhere with it, it a constructive way. i know you didn't mean to seem immflamatory posting what you did, i have made some rather immflamatory posts here unintentionally (well, occasionally intestionally lol), but it seems like you should be moving into the land of constructive discussion with this.

to expand... you say you aren't good with words. try it out. maybe use the forum to get better at it. don't shy away is someone takes offense at it. if you are wrong about something, admit it, if you feel you are right, defend it, but keep talking, and don't stop until you feel comfortable enough to explain it.

i will defend you all day long, and i would definately stand by your right to '1st ammendment freedoms' as it were. you have a right to your own opinion, so make sure it is known!

the sticker is fairly accurate, even where drakona couldn't find references, and the references she did find were of interesting context, but that isn't the point. even if the sticker were to say: warning: this book is chock full of magic elves, a guy names sven and the fjord named for him, and unicorns! it would still set the same upsetting tones for some people.

fyrephlie has finished babbling...

[Bet51987]

Bet:

i have some questions, i am sure they are questions that have been asked, but forgive me for not trying to search these forums to find them.

i understand a lot now of how you came to the conclusions that you have. i suspect that you are falling more out of the category of 'human: questioning', it seems as though you are really determined in your views, and take them VERY seriously.

1. my first question is, what are you doing now? what i mean is, are you looking for answers, have you tried digging deep to figure things out? i am certain that you, like the rest of us, are not a card carrying member of the 'answers to everything' library, but i wonder, since you have taken a spirititual and logical descision to renounce your belief in god, have you tried to believe in something, or find something to believe in?

Deep? Geez yes....for five years, but I'm no longer looking for answers from the bible. After mind bogling searches, and I had big reasons to, I couldn't come up with one sentence that would comfort me. The priest, the physco doc I still see, my father, and some of my close friends couldn't provide me with anything either and after awhile, I just gave up and nodded "yes..I see the light" to everyone and that was it, but deep inside me, the bible is a cold, empty book.

1.5 do you believe that there is some type of higher power at all?

This is what I struggle with. Although I believe the "bible god" is false, and ID is a creationists dream, I do believe there is a higher power that put the universe in motion, not just ours, but all of them. I have a scientific mind and I like reading about the birth of the universe, how "life here" began "out there", and I especially like reading about the quantum world. I am a great admirer of Einstein and the physics of Lisa Randall but I still believe some type of higher power put us in motion. I just don't know what that power might be.

2. question the second is, have you talked to your father, who (it sounds like) you are most worried about hurting because of this? i understand that you don't want to hurt him, or anyone else. but by the same token, no one SHOULD be hurt by this. i can understand disapointment, and concern if you do not believe what he, and the church, have tried so hard to teach you. but we are human. it may seem silly, but just telling him, (and not shouting "I'm an athiest! I don't believe it all!") not only that you feel the way you do, but WHY you feel the way you do, might help some. it did for me when i was that age. not to sound silly, but it provided a 'get out of church free' card, my mom was willing to support my descision, it was hard for her (and still is to this day, she says she keeps praying about it), but it was good for both of us. i myself would feel concerned if this were to come out later, and i thought about you singing in church, and knowing that you were 'not crying for love of christ' in front of 300 people, if i was your father. of course i don't know him, or you, well enough, but maybe it would do you some good to at least TRY to explain it. maybe starting with your priest (especially if it is the one you say you respect so much) might help, i have actually known priests/pastors that have helped with people who were not in faith explain it to loved ones.

I can't ever take that chance. There is just dad and me with no living relatives and though he's athletic and fit, he is still 66 to my 17. He does church stuff on part of the weekend and sometimes I do too. He is a very close friend of our priest, the parish, and the neighbors across the street (also catholics) who are my guardians in case something happened. If I told him how I felt, I know he would still love me, but I also know that inside it would crush him. I love him way too much to do that so its not an option. I just won't do it.

One more thing....I'm not going to yell "atheist" to the masses....but I do feel cheap pretending. I'm glad Christmas is over since its an emotional peak for me. I tend to spiral down some when I sing those xmas songs, but now that its over I will sing as a normal part of the choir. Easter is no big deal because the music isn't mentally deep.....and summer is on the way

3. this isn't a question, but more of some imparting of knowledge. it's hard to feel the way you do. i lived with it and still do. i hate the state of organized religion, and don't beleive much in the bible either. i 'know' what i feel is right, but by the same token, most christians 'know' what they feel is right. bottling it up is never good, and venting loudly at a forum of people doesn't help much either. i strongly encourage you to go somewhere with it, it a constructive way. i know you didn't mean to seem immflamatory posting what you did, i have made some rather immflamatory posts here unintentionally (well, occasionally intestionally lol), but it seems like you should be moving into the land of constructive discussion with this.

to expand... you say you aren't good with words. try it out. maybe use the forum to get better at it. don't shy away is someone takes offense at it. if you are wrong about something, admit it, if you feel you are right, defend it, but keep talking, and don't stop until you feel comfortable enough to explain it.

i will defend you all day long, and i would definately stand by your right to '1st ammendment freedoms' as it were. you have a right to your own opinion, so make sure it is known!

the sticker is fairly accurate, even where drakona couldn't find references, and the references she did find were of interesting context, but that isn't the point. even if the sticker were to say: warning: this book is chock full of magic elves, a guy names sven and the fjord named for him, and unicorns! it would still set the same upsetting tones for some people.

fyrephlie has finished babbling...

I can't defend myself well against some theists who spend a lot of time looking up every little word to explain to me what every little passage "really means" because I know in my heart that those words are empty. So, I lose interest. I don't have the skill to counteract them.

Another thing...I've always tried to apologize in one form or another. Usually, when I "friendly fire" my lasers and push "submit", I usually end up in my room with my head leaned up against the wall shaking my head. I know I was stupid and can't live with it until I come back here and say I was sorry..... I was brought up Christian like, and I'm glad I was and I intend to stay that way.

Try not to laugh at the link below, but go there. Thats me in a nutshell, and thats why I see a physco once a week because I can't deal with all the bad things I see in this world which is sometimes overwhelming. I tend to blame a god that isn't there and never was or come here and vent then come back and apologize. It really sucks. (First time I used that word)

http://healing.about.com/cs/empathic/a/ ... aits_2.htm

Bettina

[fyrephlie]

i think you initially misunderstood where i think you should look for answers... the bible clearly isn't it. i am recommending looking at other options... there are actually numerous other ways of looking at things, that might help you. it sounds as though you, like many, believe that there is a certain truth in the teachings. moral and logical ways of living your life. you are not alone, there is a large group of us anti-christian folks that may reject the bible, but still think it isn't right to go around killing people on a whim.

i can understand you're not wanting to hurt anyone. but it is better to be honest, than just go through the motions (which is of course lying anyway). at some point, or another, you are running the risk of 'being found out.' and that is a hurt much worse than being honest in the first place.

as to defending yourself against theists... or atheists that might disagree with you. you don't really need to defend yourself at all. just speak honestly, as you just did. tell the truth, if they choose to throw quotes at you, just tell them you disagree... with the interpretation, the text itself, whatever the case may be. you sound like you are more capable of discussing your thoughts and feelings than you are giving yourself credit for...

[World War Woodi]

Very good advice fyrephlie, it's a very confusing time in life when you begin to question what you have grown up as a child believing. It can be devestating as I'm sure you know.

Bettina, know that you will survive it as I and many, many have.


Find out everything you can and draw your own conclusions, many people have a spiritualistic view without all the baggage religion can throw at you.

I hope you understand there is no rule to being atheist or not, you can see it as complete freedom to seek the answers to any question you may have and to think anything you want without the boundries or limitations of the Bible or any traditions clouding you.

You seem in a fragile state Bett, I hope, as I'm sure many on this board do, that you find a way through this tough time.

Relying on yourself instead of giving it to God is one of the hardest challenges I can remember making in my own life.

[Will Robinson]

Bet, I know the feeling of not wanting to challenge someones beliefs, I often feel like if I discuss the topic with someone and ask them pointed questions they will end up questioning their own faith.
Maybe instead of seeing yourself as a fake you should recognize you are giving something of yourself to the listeners, something very real that most people can only wish they had to give.

Singing the song well doesn't mean you have to believe in the lyrics. Just graciously accept any praise and take it the context of a performer being praised for a job well done. You don't have to be a believer to be able to deliver the message, trust me on this, there are plenty of non-believers out there preaching for dollars at least you are singing for the sake of the beautiful song and not trying to mess with anyones head or steal their money.

If someone brings your faith into the conversation just be truthfull but tactful....tell them you are full of doubt but have lots of hope or something generically vague like that.

And if all else fails don't quit singing, try another gig instead, maybe if you sing some "Oops I did it again" Brittany Spears-crap in a band for a bunch of drunk golfers then you'll know what feeling like a fake really is and then you'll miss the old audience at the church where the music is what they appreciate....
But whatever you do don't stop making music even if you only do it for yourself. It's a wonderfully magical thing and it will help you in ways you can't even imagine.

And as far as this thread, Drakona picked apart the sticker, not you, there was nothing wrong with posting the sticker but since that's all you offered up without your own commentary on it what else did you expect anyone to do? The irony wasn't lost on anyone I don't think but I find the stickers spin on the contents of the bible to be pretty lame, I don't remember any lessons on rape, murder, incest etc. in sunday school.
Of course I also think the sticker they wanted to put on the school books to be lame as well. Also the whole sneak creationism into the class under the guise of ID is lame as well.

The only difference I see that could be mentioned in defense of the ID crowd is, if they truly believe in god and creation, then of course they should challenge the monopoly held by the teaching of evolution where as, if you don't believe in creation then the sticker on the bible is really just a slam and an attempt to ridicule someone.
It's all in the motives of the two parties. One is trying to get what they believe is the truth published the other is intolerent of the believers and trying to be mean....
So if you just put the sticker up on display with no comment to steer the debate then expect the two sides to come out swinging wildly

[Robo]

Why has this thread gone on so long? This is going to be flame bonanza soon if it isn't already.

In my opinion that sticker can come down to:
- If you find it "funny", fine. But don't go making other people feel under your shoe from it who otherwise may not have found it all that amusing.

- If you don't find it "funny", fine. But don't go attacking those who find it amusing on some fundamentalist mission to obliterate any trace of humour.

- If you sit on the fence, fine. Share your opinions, but maintain the stance that they are just opinions and nothing more.

My two pence.

[SuperSheep]

Bettina...

I think you may be more comfortable being agnostic rather than atheist. I too turned away from God and proclaimed I was atheist until I realized that I did in fact hold out the idea that there was a "higher power" but that I did not know what it was and didn't feel that there was sufficient proof on either side of the fence to support God or Evolution by itself.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

As far as offending people goes, who cares? I understand not wanting to offend those who you love and are important to you and that is fully understandable and commendable but you can't and shouldn't hope to please everyone as that is impossible.

Your Dad has strong beliefs and you telling him you no longer believe what he believes would hurt him. I think this is one of the reasons I dislike religion and turned away. Religions that I have been a part of did not allow one to question. It is in this that I found fault. If I was able to question religion while at the same time being accepted, I probably would still be a Catholic however the idea that "blind faith" was required not suggested did turn me away. This is IMO why telling your father would hurt him. It's not because somehow YOU have changed, rather the fact that you no longer believe unquestioningly and therefore you are somehow changed in a way that makes you unworthy of being "saved" and earning your place in heaven.

If you do in fact choose to be agnostic, or atheist, I think you'll find it easier to be open and caring when it comes to others religions because you don't have a strict viewpoint. This is not to say you are without conviction or that you have no religion, it is to say that you allow for others to have their beliefs but you are not here to change or convert them to your POV.

Be careful however. Your post is similar to a recovering addict that preaches to others about their addictions. There's a fine line between moving on and being resentful.

[Bet51987]

i think you initially misunderstood where i think you should look for answers... the bible clearly isn't it. i am recommending looking at other options... there are actually numerous other ways of looking at things, that might help you. it sounds as though you, like many, believe that there is a certain truth in the teachings. moral and logical ways of living your life. you are not alone, there is a large group of us anti-christian folks that may reject the bible, but still think it isn't right to go around killing people on a whim.

i can understand you're not wanting to hurt anyone. but it is better to be honest, than just go through the motions (which is of course lying anyway). at some point, or another, you are running the risk of 'being found out.' and that is a hurt much worse than being honest in the first place.

as to defending yourself against theists... or atheists that might disagree with you. you don't really need to defend yourself at all. just speak honestly, as you just did. tell the truth, if they choose to throw quotes at you, just tell them you disagree... with the interpretation, the text itself, whatever the case may be. you sound like you are more capable of discussing your thoughts and feelings than you are giving yourself credit for...

Very good advice fyrephlie, it's a very confusing time in life when you begin to question what you have grown up as a child believing. It can be devestating as I'm sure you know.

Bettina, know that you will survive it as I and many, many have.


Find out everything you can and draw your own conclusions, many people have a spiritualistic view without all the baggage religion can throw at you.

I hope you understand there is no rule to being atheist or not, you can see it as complete freedom to seek the answers to any question you may have and to think anything you want without the boundries or limitations of the Bible or any traditions clouding you.

You seem in a fragile state Bett, I hope, as I'm sure many on this board do, that you find a way through this tough time.

Relying on yourself instead of giving it to God is one of the hardest challenges I can remember making in my own life.

Bet, I know the feeling of not wanting to challenge someones beliefs, I often feel like if I discuss the topic with someone and ask them pointed questions they will end up questioning their own faith.
Maybe instead of seeing yourself as a fake you should recognize you are giving something of yourself to the listeners, something very real that most people can only wish they had to give.

Singing the song well doesn't mean you have to believe in the lyrics. Just graciously accept any praise and take it the context of a performer being praised for a job well done. You don't have to be a believer to be able to deliver the message, trust me on this, there are plenty of non-believers out there preaching for dollars at least you are singing for the sake of the beautiful song and not trying to mess with anyones head or steal their money.

If someone brings your faith into the conversation just be truthfull but tactful....tell them you are full of doubt but have lots of hope or something generically vague like that.

And if all else fails don't quit singing, try another gig instead, maybe if you sing some "Oops I did it again" Brittany Spears-crap in a band for a bunch of drunk golfers then you'll know what feeling like a fake really is and then you'll miss the old audience at the church where the music is what they appreciate....
But whatever you do don't stop making music even if you only do it for yourself. It's a wonderfully magical thing and it will help you in ways you can't even imagine.

And as far as this thread, Drakona picked apart the sticker, not you, there was nothing wrong with posting the sticker but since that's all you offered up without your own commentary on it what else did you expect anyone to do? The irony wasn't lost on anyone I don't think but I find the stickers spin on the contents of the bible to be pretty lame, I don't remember any lessons on rape, murder, incest etc. in sunday school.
Of course I also think the sticker they wanted to put on the school books to be lame as well. Also the whole sneak creationism into the class under the guise of ID is lame as well.

The only difference I see that could be mentioned in defense of the ID crowd is, if they truly believe in god and creation, then of course they should challenge the monopoly held by the teaching of evolution where as, if you don't believe in creation then the sticker on the bible is really just a slam and an attempt to ridicule someone.
It's all in the motives of the two parties. One is trying to get what they believe is the truth published the other is intolerent of the believers and trying to be mean....
So if you just put the sticker up on display with no comment to steer the debate then expect the two sides to come out swinging wildly

Bettina...

I think you may be more comfortable being agnostic rather than atheist. I too turned away from God and proclaimed I was atheist until I realized that I did in fact hold out the idea that there was a "higher power" but that I did not know what it was and didn't feel that there was sufficient proof on either side of the fence to support God or Evolution by itself.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

As far as offending people goes, who cares? I understand not wanting to offend those who you love and are important to you and that is fully understandable and commendable but you can't and shouldn't hope to please everyone as that is impossible.

Your Dad has strong beliefs and you telling him you no longer believe what he believes would hurt him. I think this is one of the reasons I dislike religion and turned away. Religions that I have been a part of did not allow one to question. It is in this that I found fault. If I was able to question religion while at the same time being accepted, I probably would still be a Catholic however the idea that "blind faith" was required not suggested did turn me away. This is IMO why telling your father would hurt him. It's not because somehow YOU have changed, rather the fact that you no longer believe unquestioningly and therefore you are somehow changed in a way that makes you unworthy of being "saved" and earning your place in heaven.

If you do in fact choose to be agnostic, or atheist, I think you'll find it easier to be open and caring when it comes to others religions because you don't have a strict viewpoint. This is not to say you are without conviction or that you have no religion, it is to say that you allow for others to have their beliefs but you are not here to change or convert them to your POV.

Be careful however. Your post is similar to a recovering addict that preaches to others about their addictions. There's a fine line between moving on and being resentful.

Thanks to all of you. Its nice to get replys without the pointy finger. First...about my dad....He isn't a holy roller cause I've heard him swear, many times when he thought I wasn't in earshot especially about Bush. As far as religion, he is a "blind faith" kind of person who was taught by nuns and he just believes what they told him. When I was little and asked him how does god hear me....his answer was "he just does". Thats it.....If I ask him questions about the bible, he doesn't know anything. He just believes that god has a plan and when bad things happen he says it was not part of gods plan for that to happen.

He also believes that he and I will meet up again in heaven. He really believes that and somehow, even now, I believe that will happen too. I just don't know how. However, I intend to keep my secret like I said.

Now, I have a question......Since I don't believe in the god of the bible, the holy trinity, ID, etc.....but still believe there is an unknown higher power....what am I....an Atheist or Agnostic...

Thank you again for the help. I really appreciate it.

Bettina

[Bet51987]

Im trying to reply but something is wrong

[Bet51987]

Thanks to all of you. Its nice to get replys without the pointy finger. First...about my dad....He isn't a holy roller cause I've heard him swear, many times when he thought I wasn't in earshot especially about Bush. As far as religion, he is a \"blind faith\" kind of person who was taught by nuns and he just believes what they told him. When I was little and asked him how does god hear me....his answer was \"he just does\". Thats it.....If I ask him questions about the bible, he doesn't know anything. He just believes that god has a plan and when bad things happen he says it was not part of gods plan for that to happen.

He also believes that he and I will meet up again in heaven. He really believes that and somehow, even now, I believe that will happen too. I just don't know how. However, I intend to keep my secret like I said.

Now, I have a question......Since I don't believe in the trinity, ID, etc.....but still believe there is an unknown higher power....what am I. Atheist or Agnostic...

Thank you again for the help. I really appreciate it.

Bettina

[Kilarin]

Hindu's, Moslems, Christians, Deists, Shamanist, New agers, Satanists, Wiccans, and so forth, are all theists. Welcome to the club!

Kilarin.

Moderator note (Birdseye): Somehow I accidently edited Kilarin's post instead of hitting the quote button, so I totally screwed up and I'm really sorry. If you want to edit this and repost properly please do, I'm really sorry and I liked your post. I feel really bad

[Edit by Kilarin]Ha! Oops. I don't happen to have a copy of the original, but I think the important part survived. No big loss and not a problem. [/edit]

[Birdseye]

You know, I guess discussing things here at E&C like this just help me to see how much I (and others) can be blinded by our emotions. In a way, it helps to keep me sharp... helps me to keep from getting too set in my opinion and be able to thing about other people's side a little bit.

Truer words hath not been spoken on the DBB

[Birdseye]

In response to what's left of Kil's post (again, sorry, great post):
Actually, it depends on the Hindu whether or not they are theist. The lay hindu may worship a god such as Shiva or Vishnu, but the intellectual Hindu that may study Vendanta understands that these 'gods' are simply manifestions of \"Brahman.\"

Brahman itself does not have to be taken as a god, but rather that the ideas that the multitude of things and events around us are but different manifestations of the same ultimate reality (interconnectedness of all things). I am posting a much longer discussion of Eastern thought in Zuruck's religion thread, if you are interested.

[woodchip]

Bet, it is well that you question things. Thats what young people do best. In my own inimical way I'll condense all your thoughts down to a few lines fron a old Ricky Nelson song called \"Garden Party\":

\"I went to a garden party to reminisce with my old friends
A chance to share old memories and play our songs again
When I got to the garden party, they all knew my name
No one recognized me, I didn't look the same

refrain:
But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself \"

You don't have to let the church people know your inner most thoughts (that's what you have this board for). To make someone feel comforted and perhaps closer to their God by singing beautifully is a gift you should take pride in.

[Bet51987]

Bet, it is well that you question things. Thats what young people do best. In my own inimical way I'll condense all your thoughts down to a few lines fron a old Ricky Nelson song called "Garden Party":

"I went to a garden party to reminisce with my old friends
A chance to share old memories and play our songs again
When I got to the garden party, they all knew my name
No one recognized me, I didn't look the same

refrain:
But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself "

You don't have to let the church people know your inner most thoughts (that's what you have this board for). To make someone feel comforted and perhaps closer to their God by singing beautifully is a gift you should take pride in.

Thank you very much for that. I get very overwhelmed at Christmas to the point that it becomes difficult to control my emotion, and this year was by far the worst. Now that Christmas is over, I'm a lot better mentally and I will continue to sing to them only now its back with the choir group instead of being alone. I like the priest too much and will never quit him.

And as far as the last line of your song....I do please everyone in that church. Its just myself I couldn't please. But, since I got a lot of good advice from my friends here on the DBB, I rather let them believe, that I believe, and keep that secret to myself. Until next Christmas when I'm gonna need support again.

And Kilarin.....Sorry, but as far as the Christians are concerned I am going to hell if I don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of god...

Bettina

[Birdseye]

Another thing is that you should have compassion for everyone in the church: Although many may claim they are made happy by god (sure, some are blissfully faithful), they may have some of the same doubts you do and we are all essentially stuck in the same confusing fundamental experience.

So rather than be angry, you can cry in compassion for them and the human condition. Your voice is a source of happiness, which is a good thing.

[Kilarin]

And Kilarin.....Sorry, but as far as the Christians are concerned I am going to hell if I don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of god...

Christianity is hardly a big monolithic structure with complete agreement on every point. There are certainly a lot of churches who's doctrine is very exclusive. The Catholics (well, officially) teach that the Pope can excommuicate someone and they are lost, and that all who are unbaptised are lost. And there are some protestant churches that seem to teach that anyone who's name is not on the church books will burn in hell. But there are also churches who could hardly be said to exclude anyone at all. Do a google or wikipidia on "Universal reconciliation" sometime.

I'm not a Universalist, but I also don't believe that the Bible teaches that anyone who is not a confessed Christian is lost.
Jn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
1 Sa 16:7 for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

My point being, don't assume that just because you've heard that a certain doctrine was "Christian" that it is universally held by all Christians. Christianity is a very broad spectrum of beliefs and doctrines.

it depends on the Hindu whether or not they are theist.

I didn't realize this. Always good to learn something new! Thank you for both very educational posts!

Kilarin

[Samuel Dravis]

Interestingly enough, I've been struggling with the same questions that Bettina has (with catholicism no less ), and all the DBBers' commentary in the E&C has helped quite a lot. You guys have a way with words.

[CUDA]

Those same laws then being turned against the sacred Bible itself... this would be sweet irony

A call for The Bible to be banned from classrooms (on it's vulgar content, basically all mentioned on Betinna's label) makes more sense than any other book the fanatics have called for banning from classrooms.

fine when they start teaching the Bible in a classroom then you have my full support to put the sticker on it

[CUDA]

Bettina I dont know how to say this without sounding harsh, but are you not the height of hippocracy? you attend church and by choice sing in the church choir praising God in your words and actions taking an active roll in the worship team of your church. as it is one thing to sing with the congregation but totally another to by choice be active in your church, yet you come here and say you do not believe and post consistantly negative comments about God. if your going to church searching for answers then thats one thing. but to goto church and in effect lie to yourself and others around you thats another. so I'm confused which is it?

[Kilarin]

I once almost dropped membership in my church. There was a doctrinal issue that I felt very strongly about, it came up for a vote at the world session and the reformation that I wanted failed to pass. I was MAD. Actually, mad doesn't quite cover it, furious is more like it. And I seriously considered asking them to take my name off the books as a protest.

Then I realized that dropping my membership wouldn't matter one bit to the folks I was mad at. They didn't KNOW me, and if they did, they would probably consider my dropping out as a favor. But dropping out WOULD hurt several people I cared about, all of whom had NOTHING to do with this decision. So I stayed in.

Later, when I calmed down, I realized that dropping out was bad for other reasons as well. For one thing, if I wanted to change the church policy, walking out was exactly the WORST thing I could do. Second was that the issue, while a hot button for me personally, was not exactly a key point of salvation and was, perhaps, not as important as it seemed to me. BUT, those only came later, the first decision was made strictly on the basis of \"Why hurt people I care about just to make a point that has nothing to do with them?\"

I'm not saying Bettina is RIGHT to pretend she believes, I just don't know. But I can certainly understand the motivation.

Kilarin

[CUDA]

your doctrinal issues and Bettina's Hipocracy are no where near the same. doctrin can be discussed an agreed or disagreed upon, you may never come to an agreement but the core is still there. with Bettina she has no core, she puts up a false front every sunday. by her own admittence she is an athiest, so not only is she lying to everyone in her church and family she is lying to herself. someone said it was soo good of her to make people feel good with her songs. songs about God. a God in which she by her own admission doesnt believe in. so if a member or her church or someone she knows and thiks she is a christian askes her about God and the scriptures is she going to lie to them just to make them feel good???? if someone is suffering lying to them is the worse thing you can do. yes it might make them feel good for a little while, but when they find out the truth not only will it hurt them more but they will have lost the trust that they had in you and your reputation is now that of someone that is untrustworthy and a liar. that can NEVER be a good thing

[CUDA]

Another thing, is that this morning, for the first time, I saw myself differently. I saw myself as a hypocrite, a liar, and a fake. I stood up in front of over three hundred people, singing ave maria with tears running down like the virgin mary....and I wowed them... but I what I really did was sell them a fake bill of goods, all from the little performer who helps fill the collection plate. Some even imagine that god is standing right next to me.

Sorry Bettina I missed this. I salute you admitting something like this takes courage. and I mean no disrepect when I say I will be praying for you.

[woodchip]

Cuda, Bet just sings. She is not the minister. Her job is not to help those in need of consollation or preaching. Again, by getting up at church and singing does not mean she has to be devout or present herself as such. OTOH, she doesn't have to say what her inner feelings are if by doing so she main cause pain to the individual. If asked all she has to do is say she would rather not talk about it.

[Kilarin]

as it is one thing to sing with the congregation but totally another to by choice be active in your church

I'm not condoning lying. It's true that it's almost always a bad idea. BUT, I just want to emphasize your point above about it being ok to "sing with the congregation." Bettina should feel free to stay in church.

EVERYONE in the church is a sinner. That's what the church is FOR. And I know that at MY church, and I'm guessing at Bettina's as well, the members would be THRILLED to have an atheist or agnostic in attendance. No better place for them to be.

The only people that a church should exclude are those who are behaving in a disruptive manner. Which is why it's best to keep silent some times. My church's official stance is young earth creationisim. (And no, that is NOT the issue I got upset about) While I am obviously a believer in creation, I don't believe that the seven day period in Genesis 1 was meant to be taken entirely literally. Now if I started standing up in church and starting arguments over this issue every sabbath, they would have a right to be upset. My behavior would be disruptive. But I don't think the issue is very important (from a Salvation perspective) and so I just keep my mouth shut. NO lying, mind you, but it's not worth upsetting anyone and disrupting everything. There are other issues that I DO consider important and am quite happy to go head to head with other members over.

Now if Bettina spent every Sunday school session trying to convince the other church members to be Atheist/Agnostics, well yes, that could be a problem. An Atheist organization might find it frustrating if a theist joined up and disrupted every meeting by turning them into arguments. And note: There is a BIG difference between someone who asks honest difficult questions and brings up the occasional challenge, and someone who makes every meeting into an argument. You can be "The Loyal Opposition", without being disruptive.

But Bettina isn't being disruptive. And if she chooses to participate without being disruptive, then the church should be absolutely THRILLED at the opportunity. They are going to have a REALLY hard time convincing her, but it's a better chance then they would get if she drops out.

Is Bettina singing up front a problem? I'm not certain about that. My church probably wouldn't freak over it. It's not like she's up front preaching or teaching. A wise man once told me that the church has almost NO standards for fellowship, higher standards for membership, and VERY high standards for leadership. I would put singing in a "fellowship" category myself.

Should Bettina feel obligated to let every member know her stance? I don't think so. It doesn't seem like it should have to come up unless they asked her to take up a leadership position, in which case, yes, I think honesty would demand that she admit her disbelief to them. Note that I am NOT saying she should lie, just that I don't think she is obligated to volunteer this information to everyone if she doesn't want to.

And my personal feeling is that Bettina would be better off talking about this honestly with her Dad and Priest. Young people would be surprised at how much we old folks can actually handle. But I certainly understand the fear that she would hurt them. Been there, done that. She's the one who knows them, and knows her own heart. She knows how much they trust her, and how much she trusts them. She has to make the decision.

Kilarin

<heh, looks like Wood Chip and I are in agreement, wasn't that mentioned in Revelation as one of the signs of the end of time?>

[CUDA]

Cuda, Bet just sings. She is not the minister. Her job is not to help those in need of consollation or preaching. Again, by getting up at church and singing does not mean she has to be devout or present herself as such. OTOH, she doesn't have to say what her inner feelings are if by doing so she main cause pain to the individual. If asked all she has to do is say she would rather not talk about it.

Wood I'm not sure you understand what the "worship" part of the service is, Bettina has chosen to stand before her congregation and represent herself as Worshiping God by song. the general congregation does not do this. there are many people in our congregation that choose not to sing during this part of the service, Bettina does so not just during the service but during special occasions also, hence the representation. the Music part of the service probably contains more power than the actual message because it sets the tone and mood for the whole service

by getting up at church and singing does not mean she has to be devout or present herself as such

but by doing so in the church setting she does just that. song in a worship service is not like listening to your car radio. the whole point of it is to allow you to prepare yourself for worship, to allow for that communion with God as it was.

Her job is not to help those in need of consollation or preaching.

but did she not say that she had people in tears and that some of them felt God was standing next to her?
regardless of what you think of those people make no mistake she did minister to them

[CUDA]

EVERYONE in the church is a sinner. That's what the church is FOR. And I know that at MY church, and I'm guessing at Bettina's as well, the members would be THRILLED to have an atheist or agnostic in attendance. No better place for them to be. Smile

this goes without saying, attendance is one thing preaching through song is another entirly, MOST of those people dont getup infront of those sinners in one form or another be it singing or preaching and blatantly misslead those people, and do not be fooled song is a form of preaching and worship leading

[WarAdvocat]

I admit to skimming 2 pages of debate.

I admit it, I smirked. Why? Because it's funny. Satire usually offends someone, and this gets double extra bonys points for parody. I didn't see anyone use those two words (parody & satire), which might be why we have 3 pages of debate on the subject.

Jonathan Swift wrote a famous piece of Satire, entitled A modest proposal. I'm sure that offended a lot of people. Let's get off the self-righteous high horses here. If this kind of stuff bothers you, you're too hidebound IMO. Lighten up. Even Lothar gave it an official, if not entirely uncontrollable \"heh\".

[Kilarin]

and do not be fooled song is a form of preaching and worship leading

I see your point, there are those who feel that everyone up front should be a member in good standing. The reason I draw a difference between singing and teaching is that the lyrics Bettina is singing are certainly approved by her church. She isn't up front influencing anyone to believe something different from what that church teaches.

Which brings me back to, the BEST solution would be if Bettina could talk to her priest, then the decision becomes his and if he approves, there is no problem. Honesty is usually the best policy, although it often carries a price.

The choice is Bettina's, of course, and I think she is capable of making it.

Kilarin

[fyrephlie]

17....till February

Bettina

(another picses to boot}

It's important to note this... and that it may have something to do with her 'hipocracy', and keep in mind where you were at this point in life?

I have pointed out that she might want to consider 'coming clean' about it with her father and church, but she may feel that it is not possible. (i am sure that when we were younger we all heard the 'if you are going to live under my roof, you'll live by my rules...' at that age...)

just a thought.

[Palzon]

17....till February

Bettina

fixed it for you.

And i agree.

Perhaps Cuda expects a 17 yo to nail theses to the door of the church in protest. I don't see that as realistic. Also, I think the ten commandments say something about honoring your father.

Bet already acknowledged the contradiction in her beliefs and actions. Once she's an adult living on her own it won't be a problem. there's nothing hypocritical about it.

[CUDA]

Perhaps Cuda expects a 17 yo to nail theses to the door of the church in protest. I don't see that as realistic. Also, I think the ten commandments say something about honoring your father.

Bet already acknowledged the contradiction in her beliefs and actions. Once she's an adult living on her own it won't be a problem. there's nothing hypocritical about it.

just to clairify it far ya Palz

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hypocrite

hypocrite

n : a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he does not hold [syn: dissembler, phony, phoney, pretender]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

hypocrite

one who puts on a mask and feigns himself to be what he is not; a dissembler in
religion. Our Lord severely rebuked the scribes and Pharisees for their
hypocrisy (Matt. 6:2, 5, 16). "The hypocrite's hope shall perish" (Job 8:13).
The Hebrew word here rendered "hypocrite" rather means the "godless" or
"profane," as it is rendered in Jer. 23:11, i.e., polluted with crimes.

it also adds that nice little bit of scripture for ya since you wanted to go that way and quote some yourself.

Now I've already applogized to Bet since I didnt see her earlier post. so lets change the subject away from her personally and lets talk about those kind of actions.

what was done is the definition of hypocrite. that is indisputable. being 17 make no difference. in the US your not an adult till 18. but in Jewish tradition your an adult at 13 and could be stoned for such actions. now that is not what I am advocating here. when your in a Church setting you must realize that you are looked at in a different light. when you stand before that congregation and act or profess your faith,you effect too many people to be lying to them.
second how would it be bringing Honor to her father as you would like to say by lying to him and her congregation? the honorable thing to do would be to have a good heart to heart talk with him and tell him her feelings. now I dont pretend to know Bettinas family. maybe it could be hazardous to her health. in that case I say keep quiet till she moves out. but as a father of several, I can tell you I only want the best for my children. if they chose not to follow then that is their choice and they must live with the consequences of it. yes I would be hurt but, I will not and cannot FORCE them to follow. I currently have an 18 year old daughter that is not attending and is all but living with her boyfriend. I do not approve and she knows this as I have voiced my opinion about it. but only once. I have never said anything about it since that first time almost a year ago and I will not, because it would be counter productive and all it would succeed in doing is push her away. I would like to think that Bettinas dad would be the same way but that I do not know.

[woodchip]

Cuda, while I can agree with some of what you're saying, I don't buy into singing equals preaching. Perhaps in your church it does. However look at a black church where people sing with a sense of unity as much as feeling good and perhaps feeling in touch with their God. If Bet is singing in front of the congregation it is because she is recognised for her voice and how well she can carry a note...not because she is laying down a sermon by doing so. Now if I got up and sang in a church, even though the words were correct I suspect I'd empty the building in very short order. Whjere-as if I read a passage from the bible people would listen and stay in their seat. I guess what I'm getting at is we listen to people who can carry a note because it fills us with a hard to define something, no matter what the format. It appears Bet's singing does that and I suspect no matter what the song Bet would still move people by her ability.

And Kilarin, don't let one little misalignment make you think the end is nigh.

[roid]

you don't have to be a Rastafarian to grow weed. But you can deal to Rastafarians and feel good that you are an enabling force of THEIR spirituality.
Even if Bett doesn't share the beliefs herself she can still feel good about being an enabling force in other people's spirituality.

I'm in agreement with what Woodchip started to get at: Bett is likely viewed in her congregation by a hard to define quality she represents while she sings. From her pic in her avatar (and what she's quoted congregation members as saying) i can assume it's because to the congregation she represents youth, purity, innocence, perfection. I imagine the quality of her voice is also inspiring of this.

Basically, Bett is an artwork. As with most artworks, their main power is in what they REPRESENT, what they say to you personally. Her congregation would be wise to adopt a \"don't ask, don't tell\" policy if they don't wish to deface the image of their precious artwork.
No-one's perfect, and i'd think her Minister would be accepting of this if she discussed it with him. \"Keeping up the charade for the sake of spirituality\" is a morally difficult concept Ministers personally deal with on a constant basis. Bett you may be surprised just how well he will understand.

[Bet51987]

I have said it all along, the people closest to me are my father, my priest, and my guardians. I can't tell them that I don't believe in god....I just can't. Although dad and (Fr. Ted) would eventually forgive me, I don't know if the priest will let me sing anymore or do charity work as part of the church because he's really a believer....a really big time believer in the whole thing and it would hurt him, and even if by some miracle he allowed me to participate anyways, I would still be lying to the people listening to me. I would still be a hypocryte and if the atheist word got out, the senior home would ask me to leave too.

Religion is funny. Gay and pedophile priests were tolerated for years...talk about hypocrytes...and yet they were still asked to stay on by the pope himself. It took a few years for him to reluctantly make a decree of zero tolerance because of pressure from the press. But an atheist?.....I would fare much worse I think.

Now that the holidays are over, and summer is coming, I feel a lot better emotionally and if I keep my secret everyone stays happy but me. I've been doing this since I was 13 so its too late to tell them now. Yes, I fit the hypocryte description like it was shown above, but I'm also a performer....maybe a little like that Steve Martin movie \"Leap of Faith\", maybe I'm a little like him. I can handle it that way.

When I stand under that huge wooden crucifix and sing to those people who believe in god...I make them believe even more. The ones that have a marginal belief....come even closer. The seniors I already have and when they look at me I make them feel better somehow. The little kids, well, they just want to go home. But let me set something straight. If a little boy or girl comes to me and asks me a question about god, I explain to them as if it was a loving god....not my personal view...just as I do with everyone who asks me.....Its only later that I go home and bang my head against the wall, or get depressed, or come to the DBB and rant away.

And, those tears are real and when they come down as I sing, those people think I'm as close to god as they come and it amplifys there beliefs so how can that hurt them. In reality though...its caused by both the music and me thinking of the god that should have been and not by the one who allows so much pain. I am tormented because I can't accept a world with the bible god nor can I accept a world without one. So, I'm stuck not as a true atheist but as an agnostic. I just want proof. I just want to see the real god...not the one Lothar mentioned.

Oh yeah....some have mentioned me turning 18. Well, on Feb 15th nothing magical is going to happen. My morals will still remain \"Christian like\", I'm still going to mind dad, and I'm still not going to swear.

Bettina

[CUDA]

Bettina, reading what you have posted, it says to me that you have a good foundation. as a Christian Parent and I'm sure that your Father feels the same way, We rely on the Lords promise.

Train up your children in the ways of the Lord, and when they are older they will not depart from them.

if any one that is a Christian tells you that they dont doubt or question, even one that is older they are lying to you. but as a Parent we have a Promise from God that if we give our children the proper foundation, even if they stray (which almost all do in some form) that when they Mature they will come back to thier roots. good luck in your life's endeavors

[Top Gun]

Important note: I originally made this post about a week ago, during the period when the DBB was undergoing its server move. During that time, it was apparently posted under the old server and did not appear here after the server move. Luckily, KoolBear was able to retrieve the post and e-mailed it to me a few days ago. I realize that it doesn't completely fit into where the discussion is now, and I'm sorry if this causes anyone any confusion, but I did put some thought into it, and so I didn't want it to be completely lost. Per KB's request, I'm also quoting SuperSheep's response to this post that was also lost in the move.

Posted Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:27 am

Your Dad has strong beliefs and you telling him you no longer believe what he believes would hurt him. I think this is one of the reasons I dislike religion and turned away. Religions that I have been a part of did not allow one to question. It is in this that I found fault. If I was able to question religion while at the same time being accepted, I probably would still be a Catholic however the idea that "blind faith" was required not suggested did turn me away. This is IMO why telling your father would hurt him. It's not because somehow YOU have changed, rather the fact that you no longer believe unquestioningly and therefore you are somehow changed in a way that makes you unworthy of being "saved" and earning your place in heaven.

I feel sorry for you, SuperSheep, because it sounds like you really didn't get the religious education that you deserved to have. I know that there are some faiths out there that demand blind acceptance, that preach nothing more than "just read the Bible and stop asking questions;" I personally disagree heavily with that sentiment. From how I have been raised in the Catholic faith, I have learned that it is all right, even natural, to question one's faith at times and to come to rational conclusions about it. In fact, it's what has to happen before someone can reach a truly mature level of faith. When we're young, we believe what we do because we're told it's true; to make that leap to an adult faith, we have to believe what we do because we believe it to be true. There's a very fundamental difference there. Just about every person of faith has at least one time when they question their own beliefs, perhaps even the existence of God Himself. For the people who make it through such times while still retaining their faith, it's usually stronger for having gone through the experience. That's what it means to grow in one's faith; it's an ongoing process that never truly ends until the day we die.

Anyway, that wasn't really what, or even who, I wanted to address here. Bettina, I can never pretend to completely understand what you're going through or what has led you to the beliefs that you now hold and the situation that you're in. I know that, from what you've said in the past, it sounds as though you've had somewhat of a rough childhood, and I'm really sorry for that. When I hear you discussing the problems you're having, I feel like I want to do nothing more than help you in any way I can, even though I don't think there's anything I can do. Even if they don't mean much at all to you, I will keep you in my prayers. The only thing I can really think to say to you is to try to keep your mind open, and don't fool yourself into thinking that you have all of the answers; none of us ever does. I may feel that what I believe is right, but I have no more ability to convince you of that than you have to convince me that your way of thinking is the correct one. You say that you know that the Bible is nothing more than a grouping of cold and empty words, but I really think you shouldn't trod down that road, for your own sake. Don't convince yourself that what you feel right now is an absolute truth, or that it applies to everyone else; it will only lead to pain in your future. There are many things in this world that cannot be explained in shades of black and white, and faith is probably at the top of the list; don't reduce it down to something like that so lightly.

As for your relationship with your father, I honestly don't know what to say. I really don't think that the DBB is the best place to look for help; while we may care about you, we're just not the right people to give you advice. If I can say anything to you, I would probably tell you to find an adult that you would feel comfortable talking to, such as a teacher, a doctor, or a family friend. Let them know about your situation, and tell them exactly why you don't want to tell your father about your feelings. While your father might be devastated by the truth, I honestly think that he would be happier if you were happy than with the torn state that you seem to be in right now. As I said, though, don't automatically take this to heart. The final decision about what action you want to take lies with you and you alone. If you do want to talk with us further, we're always here to lend a friendly ear.

P.S. It would probably be best to just forget about the whole sticker thing. It's definitely been beaten to death, and I'm not about to continue the beating. Suffice it to say that, while I may have been a little bit offended by it, the main reaction I had was the same reaction I have at the stickers on science textbooks, thinking that both are just about equally stupid for similar reasons. That's all I'll bother saying about the whole matter.

Posted Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:57 am

Top Gun...

I appreciate your obviously heartfelt sympathy for my situation but I really don't want you to feel sorry for me. I've been through many turning points in my life with the inability to question only being the first of many. I had my Grandfather who happened to be the greatest man of all time (to me) die of lung cancer very painfully even though he never smoked or worked in an environment that should cause such a thing. My Dad turned to alcoholism and I watched it destroy him to the point of turning him homeless. I personally was born with a rare heart disease that caused me to be tired all the time and have open heart at 16 and still to this day have problems.

Now, I understand the notion of suffering and I can even understand the idea that God has purposes that a mere human such as myself could never understand. That being said however, I can not look at the world around me with all the suffering, murders, rapes, and general rage and lack of concern and at the end of the day also believe that there is a God as many people have been taught about.

I do believe that there is a Higher Power. This power could be called God to you, but I choose to call it a Higher Power. This Higher Power is not IMO here to judge or guide or even save us, rather a power that is simply greater than us. This has allowed me to have much more peace with the situations in my own life.

I do not begrudge anyones faith in any God. I believe that whatever makes you happy and comforts you in your times of need is exactly what you should believe in.

Like you Top Gun, I really think telling her father would be good as lies are not good in any circumstance but I think now is not the time.

Bettina, I think you need to first be comfortable with your own situation and beliefs before you can explain it to your Dad. I sense a lot of confusion and anger in you and that would definately color any discussion you had with him. Once you are comfortable and have accepted whatever belief you have, then approach him openly and warmly. While he will be hurt, you will at least be at a place to provide comfort to him.

[CUDA]

I think this is one of the reasons I dislike religion and turned away. Religions that I have been a part of did not allow one to question. It is in this that I found fault. If I was able to question religion while at the same time being accepted, I probably would still be a Catholic however the idea that \"blind faith\" was required not suggested did turn me away.

this is one reason why I disagree with alot of the Catholic faith. now do not miss interperate what I'm saying. I am not saying that it is a bad faith, just that I disagree with some of thier practices. I come from a Baptist backround, and in my church, I have and would not hesitate again to challenge the Pastor on his teachings if I dont agree with them. what this does is spurs debate and I get an expanded education. now this does not mean that I will agree with him afterwards but it will give me a different aspect that I might not have considered. because when you get down to it there is only one absolute required in the Christian faith.

that Christ is God in human form and that he died and was resurected for my sins.

there is alot of room for interpretation in scriptures. that probably causes more problems for \"RELIGION\" than any thing. but it doesnt make religion bad of phony. blind faith is never a good thing, but true faith is never a bad thing.