Bible "Discussion" (split by Lothar)

[Duper]

does that make sense.

yup, totally. I've lived without God, or nearly. I know exaclty what you're talking about.

"deal with it." Let me expound on this a bit more as you bring up a good point.

I don't mean "get over yourself" although that IS what it sounds like. (my bad) What I DO mean is that the principle that I explained ~kinda~ is an axiom. There is a lot of new fluffy theolgies out there that want to make God a "Candyman" or Monty Hall. That being a Christain or going to church or just simply being good will make your life a walk in the park. .. or some variation there of. The first 7 chapters of Matthew makes it quite clear that this is NOT the case. It says in the bible that God causes it to rain on the evil and the good. That is to say that all receive blessings in life. (beleive it or not rain is a good thing. )

I also put it that way as I have lost count of the times this same principle has been told to Bettina. Please re-read what I said about "free will" as I wold like to say it again, but don't want to post it again. (heh) It really is the key in this "equation".
also, it you ARE an athiest. .. Stop blaming God. That's just dumb. Tell you Dad, and the church. don't be a flake about your beliefs. If you are afraid, Make sure of what you believe then, don't just fly off the handle.

Frye, thanks for spelling "rhetorical" correctly. lol.. i knew i goofed.

[fyrephlie]

does that make sense.

yup, totally. I've lived without God, or nearly. I know exaclty what you're talking about.

"deal with it." Let me expound on this a bit more as you bring up a good point.

I don't mean "get over yourself" although that IS what it sounds like. (my bad) What I DO mean is that the principle that I explained ~kinda~ is an axiom. There is a lot of new fluffy theolgies out there that want to make God a "Candyman" or Monty Hall. That being a Christain or going to church or just simply being good will make your life a walk in the park. .. or some variation there of. The first 7 chapters of Matthew makes it quite clear that this is NOT the case. It says in the bible that God causes it to rain on the evil and the good. That is to say that all receive blessings in life. (beleive it or not rain is a good thing. )

I also put it that way as I have lost count of the times this same principle has been told to Bettina. Please re-read what I said about "free will" as I wold like to say it again, but don't want to post it again. (heh) It really is the key in this "equation".
also, it you ARE an athiest. .. Stop blaming God. That's just dumb. Tell you Dad, and the church. don't be a flake about your beliefs. If you are afraid, Make sure of what you believe then, don't just fly off the handle.

very true.

blaming god, isn't blaming god though, imho, it's blaming the god that isn't there, even though you are told, taught, and hit in the head with it so much.... just a thought.

Frye, thanks for spelling "rhetorical" correctly. lol.. i knew i goofed.

and then you go and spell fyre wrong...

actually i wasn't trying to pull a mobius, and wouldn't have noticed anyway. (i mis-spell everything all the time with reckless abandon!!)

[Duper]

LOL. it so figures. gah.

I disagree with your opinion. I understand what you're saying, though. If a person truely didn't believe in God, they would not direct thier anger towards God.

So I guess that points to the question.. are there any REAL athiests? The scriptures say that the knowledge of eternity is "hidden" in the hearts of man. So it wold be more fair to say that there are agnostics, not athiests. A true athiest would not take issue with "god" and would automatically chalk bad stuff up as ★■◆● happens. That's the way the chaos cookie crumbles so to speak.

[Repo Man]

wow, you really have not read this thread at all have you? i have already apologized for the initial post, having been made quickly and with some flame intent. i was tired, and that is what came out.

Yes, you apologized, but then you immediately turned around and popped off with something else.

Are you sure you have read this thread?

read the thread have you? hmm... i already mentioned who i was raised by.

I have read and re-read this thread; all I can find from your posts are generic references to church and Sunday school, but no specifics about denomination. If I missed it, then please show me where. Otherwise, I must ask the perennial question?

Are you absolutely sure you have read this thread?


The Flat Earth II

hmm, since i ignored the rest of revelation 7, maybe you skipped 7:1 conveniently, which again points out that there are four corners on this flat flat world of ours. i'm going to thin this out a bit, but the point i was making was to the 'inerracy' [sic] of the bible

OK, let me get this straight. At first you argued that biblical cosmology teaches a round, flat, ??pancake? like? earth. Are you now arguing that it teaches a square, flat, waffle-shaped earth, instead? I wish you would make up your mind. My waffle iron is square, by the way. If you have a round one, then you will have to supply your own simile.

I skipped Revelation 7:1 because it had nothing to do with the subject, but if you insist upon bringing it up?

The Greek word translated ?corners? in Revelation 7:1 is gonia, which literally means angles, divisions or the extremities. It is customary to divide a map into quadrants as shown by the four cardinal directions. In other words, those angels had all the bases covered. This passage has nothing to do with geography, but the passages I quoted from Job do.

It is doubtful that any religious Jew would ever misunderstand the true meaning of ?four corners.? For nearly 2,000 years, religious Jews have faced the city of Jerusalem three times daily and chanted the following prayer:

Sound the great trumpet for our freedom,
Raise the banner for gathering our exiles,
And gather us together from the four corners of the earth into our own land.

I have demonstrated that the Bible is inerrant with regard to the shape of the earth. The only thing that?s falling flat around here are your lame arguments. Keep digging that functionally-illiterate hole of yours deeper!

i think it's so cute of you to make such a long winded point of it.

Even though I exceeded your short attention span, I am happy I managed to still be so entertaining!


P.S. Pulling the ?four corners? passages from the Old Testament will only serve to dig you even deeper still.


Slavery II

there are actually more passages in the bible that are pro slavery, than against it.= (very much indicitive [sic] of the time when they were written).

in all honesty, the bible is really all over the place with this subject (as it is with many subjects).

I see nothing for or against slavery in the passages you quoted, only ways to govern the institution. However, it is not my job to change how you choose to perceive things. As I said in my previous post,

The other type of slavery, indentured servitude, is not condemned in the Bible. The Bible tolerates slavery of this type and the New Testament has guidelines for relations between slaves and their masters, but toleration cannot be logically equated with acceptance.

You can add the Old Testament to that list of guidelines. You have still failed to demonstrate that the Bible actually promotes slavery.

Are you absolutely, positively sure you have read this thread?

The Mosaic Law lifted the nation of Israel above the moral cesspool of the Bronze Age civilizations surrounding them. Do some research into the practices of the people conquered by Israel and you will see what I mean. Furthermore, the law prepared the way for the Messiah. Today, in Christ, ? there is no {distinction between} Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all? (Colossians 3:11).


Menstruation II

You quote Leviticus 15 and make my point. Thank you. You abilities to cut-and-paste text are noteworthy. Now, do yourself a favor: read the whole chapter and then re-read my thumbnail explanation of it. Or better yet, obtain a few good commentaries on Leviticus and do your own homework.

Are you absolutely, positively, one-hundred percent sure you have read this thread?

Regarding Leviticus 20:18 and Ezekiel 18. Having intercourse with menstruating women promotes disease. Especially since the Hebrew word translated ?menstruation? covers discharges that are disease-born as well. I have already talked about this in my last post. You break the cleanliness laws and promote disease, then you are outta the camp of Israel, pal!

Righteousness = following God?s laws + the added bonus of being protected from disease. Cleanliness is next to godliness.

Women in the Bronze Age were not unclean (both ceremonially and physically) because they menstruated, but they were unclean only when they menstruated. The ancient near east did not have all the fancy sanitation niceties we have today. Do I really, really need to go into detail here? For christsakes, they didn't even have toilet paper back then--which is why they even had cleanliness laws about where you should take a dump (c.f. Deuteronomy 23:12-13).

The National Organization for Women should commend you for carrying their banner on this discussion board, but you have failed to demonstrate how menstruation in the Bible brands the fairer sex as intrinsically unclean.

[NOTE: I messed up the last sentence of my previous post in Menstruation Part I. Please see the edit there. Thank you.]

Seeds II

read the previous posts, we talked about it. talked about all of this already.

Yes, and the final word on it was from you.

Eh? Per textbook answer on the germination of seeds: "Under favorable conditions, the seed begins to germinate, and the embryonic tissues resume growth, developing towards a seedling." But, ok. it dies, I guess.

I corrected your error. Deal with it.

Are you absolutely, positively, one-hundred percent, have-a-note-from-your-mother sure you have read this thread?


Concluding Exchange of Insults

in other words you are too lazy to try and prove this point, and in hoping someone (like Shoku) will read the long post at the end of the thread, will think you know what you are talking about. kudos.

Actually, if you demonstrated the ability to make logically-argued, coherent points, then I might be interested in pursuing it. However, I have better things to do than spoon-feed someone who is obviously too lazy himself to even crack open a Greek Lexicon to look up the meaning of the word ?corners? in the original language. Why then, should I waste my time with you?

i wouldn't mind discussing something with you sometime though. when you aren't being such a condescending a$$.

Well then... Don?t dish it out if you can?t take it.

End of discussion. Ta, ta, for now?

(See, I?m being cute and angry for you again. Maybe I'll bite your ankles next time. Grrrr.)

[dissent]

Fyre and Repo - sheesh, get a room already!!!

Bettina - And I repeat ...[see dissent post osted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:18 am]

Shoku - Good point about keeping things in historical context. The world was very different even one hundred years ago, let alone thousands.

[Repo Man]

Fyre and Repo - sheesh, get a room already!!!

I'll back off before this thread gets locked.

[fyrephlie]

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeee

Yes, you apologized, but then you immediately turned around and popped off with something else.

Are you sure you have read this thread?

yep... days ago as it was unfolding.

I have read and re-read this thread; all I can find from your posts are generic references to church and Sunday school, but no specifics about denomination. If I missed it, then please show me where. Otherwise, I must ask the perennial question?

Are you absolutely sure you have read this thread?

my apologies... in this thread i haven't said specific denomonations... i thought (and of course... having been posting in several) you might be keeping up on other threads. but if it helps... i was born and baptized catholic... but my mother (especially after leaving my dad) was amd is a devout Baptist.

OK, let me get this straight. At first you argued that biblical cosmology teaches a round, flat, ??pancake? like? earth. Are you now arguing that it teaches a square, flat, waffle-shaped earth, instead?

actually the point is that the biblical cosmology (is that like biblical cosmetology? ) doesn't teach anything, there are references that point in several different directions. even in genesis the earth is more or less described as a stack of pancakes too...

can i reiterate the point that you are bringing up topics that were not the bread and butter of this thread? and to clear things up, i think the world is shaped like a giant taco salad.

as to four corners, it's still used today in most popular media to describe this flat flat world of ours... keep in mind that i am just popping off with tognue in cheek type stuff. just to tick you off and make you post more.

I have demonstrated that the Bible is inerrant with regard to the shape of the earth. The only thing that?s falling flat around here are your lame arguments. Keep digging that functionally-illiterate hole of yours deeper!

i haven't argued any point you've made. nor have i actually said i disagree with you.

I see nothing for or against slavery in the passages you quoted, only ways to govern the institution. However, it is not my job to change how you choose to perceive things. As I said in my previous post,

well, when there are specific passages directing slaves on how to live, and how people should treat their slave... instead of saying something to the effect of you should not be a slave... blah blah ... whatever... i'm too tired to argue... but sure... it doesnt say ... "and the lord saith slavery is the best!"

Seeds II

blah blah blah ... still don't get why you are arguing this point... i really am not arguing the bible as a science text book... er, well, whatever i'm bored with this.

Well then... Don?t dish it out if you can?t take it.

if i didn't have a job, or children, or better things to do that chat with you all day... i would be glad to explain my point of view with you.

but, as i have expressed before... i really don't feel it's worth my time on this forum to deal with it. so ... whatever.



i will close with this. i think that it is important to point out, that most of what you are saying is fairly accurate, and i don't disagree with you on most of your points, i appreciate that you are at least trying to make a coherent arguement, but since i really wasn't trying to persue this topic in the direction you want to take it, i dislike the way you have gone about it. and you are insisting on going back to pre-page 1 points of this thread, i will leave you there. perhaps when i am not feeling so lazy i might be willing to discuss things more. but for now i say. merry day after christmas.

[Repo Man]

I'm bored with it also. In all sincerity, please do have a Happy New Year.

All this talk about pancakes, waffles and taco salad is making me hungry.

[fyrephlie]

I'm bored with it also. In all sincerity, please do have a Happy New Year.

All this talk about pancakes, waffles and taco salad is making me hungry.

you too... and p.s. i'm not as stupid as you want to think i am... i am just really lazy when it comes to forum posting... p.p.s watching this like a hawk you are!

[Kilarin]

Dang, I go on one short vacation and I miss agnostic confession week.

what kind of god was Jessica Lunsford praying to when she went to bed that night.

This is, bar none, the most difficult question of all time. How can God be good and powerful and still let bad things happen? dissent and others tried to answer the question, with good answers. It all comes down to free will. It was not intended that bad things happen in this world, but Adam and Eve were given a choice and chose to live in a world of sin. If God stepped in and stopped all bad things from happening, there could BE no free will. We would just be robots. And the question of whether or not it's better to live God's way or Satan's way would never be answered.

But the answer falls short for us. It works on an intellectual level, but emotionally, we are left unsatisfied. At first it seems fine, let adults make their own mistakes, yes, we can buy that idea, but then you run into the story of some child who was horribly abused and murdered... And suddenly free will seems to expensive, how can it be worth the price?

Have you ever read the book of Job? It has become one of my favorite books of the Bible. All of these terrible things happen to Job, including his children all being killed. And he can't understand why. His friends tell him that it must be his own fault, he did something wrong that made him deserve this evil. He knows, of course, that this isn't true. And even if he had done something wrong, how could that explain his children's deaths? And, here is the important part, Job gets MAD. VERY mad. At God. He screams out his outrage:

Job 16:6-9
Yet if I speak, my pain is not relieved;
and if I refrain, it does not go away.
Surely, O God, you have worn me out;
you have devastated my entire household.
You have bound me and it has become a witness;
my gauntness rises up and testifies against me.
God assails me and tears me in his anger
and gnashes his teeth at me;

Job 19:7
Though I cry, I've been wronged! I get no response;
though I call for help, there is no justice.

Job 21:7-15
Why do the wicked live on,
growing old and increasing in power?
They see their children established around them,
their offspring before their eyes.
Their homes are safe and free from fear;
the rod of God is not upon them.
...
They spend their years in prosperity
and go down to the grave in peace.
Yet they say to God, Leave us alone!
We have no desire to know your ways.
Who is the Almighty, that we should serve him?
What would we gain by praying to him??

Job 21:19-26
It is said, God stores up a man's punishment for his sons.
Let him repay the man himself, so that he will know it!
Let his own eyes see his destruction;
let him drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
For what does he care about the family he leaves behind
when his allotted months come to an end?
Can anyone teach knowledge to God,
since he judges even the highest?
One man dies in full vigor,
completely secure and at ease,
his body well nourished,
his bones rich with marrow.
Another man dies in bitterness of soul,
never having enjoyed anything good.
Side by side they lie in the dust,
and worms cover them both.

Job 30:20-23
I cry out to you, O God, but you do not answer;
I stand up, but you merely look at me.
You turn on me ruthlessly;
with the might of your hand you attack me.
You snatch me up and drive me before the wind;
you toss me about in the storm.
I know you will bring me down to death,
to the place appointed for all the living.

Now, after a WHOLE LOT of this, God finally shows up and enters into the conversation. Of course, you are expecting one of two responses: Either God gives Job answers to all of his questions, or God smashes Job into oblivion for daring to question his justice.

Interestingly enough, we get neither. God tells him (with some absolutely beautiful imagery), "I'm the boss, I created everything, including you, and you just don't have the capacity to understand the full answer". He doesn't answer any of Job's questions. And then, to everyone's surprise, he turns to Job's friends, the ones who told Job he must have deserved it, the ones who have been DEFENDING God all this time and says:

Job 42:7
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Say what?!? But yes, it's right there. God says that Job was RIGHT to be angry at all of the injustice, and that Job's friends were WRONG to try and say that anyone who has bad things happen to them is being punished by God and deserves it. It's a VERY strange answer. Apparently God EXPECTS us to get mad when we see the bad things going on in this world, He just asks that we bring that anger to Him.

I think I really started appreciating this book after I had a kid of my own. (That's him in my Avatar) My son had a problem with a Lazy Eye. One eye was weaker than the other and would start turning in and pointing at his nose. The Doctor explained that if we didn't fix this, and soon, his vision would be permanently affected. The first step in the treatment was eye patches. Every day, for several hours, my son had to wear a special eye-patch bandage over the strong eye, so that the weak eye would have to work harder and grow stronger. Ever try to explain future benefits to a toddler who only has a vocabulary of a few words? My son wasn't stupid, and he, in his toddler wisdom, knew that sight was GOOD, and every day his daddy was taking away part of his sight for several hours. It was very simple logic that what was happening to him was VERY BAD and there was nothing daddy could do to explain it to him otherwise. And believe me, I TRIED. But he just couldn't understand. It's not that I didn't want to explain, just that he didn't have the CAPACITY to understand. It finally came down to: "I'm your dad, you KNOW that I love you, you are just going to have to trust me."

And suddenly the book of Job started making a whole lot of sense. My grandmother died slowly from Alzheimers, in pieces. It's not a pretty way to go. After the brain degenerates beyond recognition, the body starts failing part by part. By the end I was praying that she would just go ahead and DIE so the misery would be over. That didn't seem much to ask for, not even a miraculous healing, just a painless death. And yet it dragged on and on and on before it finally, thankfully, ended. I had a similar experience with my grandfather who died of cancer, slowly. Now I know, I KNOW intellectually, that there are good reasons why God can't step in and interfere every time I want Him to. I have completely rational reasons to trust God and to believe that he has my best interest at heart. Rationally, I understand about free will and choices and sin. But emotionally, I'm just like my son. All I see is that something bad is happening, and it would be SO easy for God to fix it, so why doesn't He? Can free will really be that important? Is it really worth it?

And His answer is the same that He gave to Job, and the same that I gave to my Son. We have rational reasons to trust him, even on some points that we don't fully understand.

So what kind of god was Jessica Lunsford praying to? The same God who cried at the tomb of Lazarus. The same God who tried to comfort Mary as she watched her Son tortured to death. He's a God who cares, but does not always interfere in the way we think He should, BECAUSE he cares. Just like a parent.

Will this make you feel any better about your loss? I doubt it. But you should know that many of us here feel for you, and some of us are praying for you. (don't be offended, it can't hurt!)

Kilarin

[Repo Man]

you too... and p.s. i'm not as stupid as you want to think i am... i am just really lazy when it comes to forum posting... p.p.s watching this like a hawk you are!

I never thought you were stupid. I think you are wrong, but being wrong does not necessarily equate with being stupid.

You have posted 697 times on this board in the 42 days since becoming a member here. That?s a frequency of 16.6 posts per day. Here are the names and posting frequencies of the top ten posters on this board (in posts / day):

1. MD-2389 @ 0.90
2. JMEaT @ 3.72
3. Lothar @ 0.70
4. KoolBear @ 0.67
5. Krom @ 3.25
6. DCrazy @ 3.77
7. Ferno @ 3.06
8. Tetrad @ 0.58
9. Mobius @ 4.33
10. CDN_Merlin @ 0.50

Your rate is almost four-times that of Mobius! Duuuuude, you are a freaking one-man posting machine!!

Gimme an ever-loving break.

[Bet51987]

Dang, I go on one short vacation and I miss agnostic confession week.

what kind of god was Jessica Lunsford praying to when she went to bed that night.

This is, bar none, the most difficult question of all time. How can God be good and powerful and still let bad things happen? dissent and others tried to answer the question, with good answers. It all comes down to free will. It was not intended that bad things happen in this world, but Adam and Eve were given a choice and chose to live in a world of sin. If God stepped in and stopped all bad things from happening, there could BE no free will. We would just be robots. And the question of whether or not it's better to live God's way or Satan's way would never be answered.

But the answer falls short for us. It works on an intellectual level, but emotionally, we are left unsatisfied. At first it seems fine, let adults make their own mistakes, yes, we can buy that idea, but then you run into the story of some child who was horribly abused and murdered... And suddenly free will seems to expensive, how can it be worth the price?

Have you ever read the book of Job? It has become one of my favorite books of the Bible. All of these terrible things happen to Job, including his children all being killed. And he can't understand why. His friends tell him that it must be his own fault, he did something wrong that made him deserve this evil. He knows, of course, that this isn't true. And even if he had done something wrong, how could that explain his children's deaths? And, here is the important part, Job gets MAD. VERY mad. At God. He screams out his outrage:

Job 16:6-9
Yet if I speak, my pain is not relieved;
and if I refrain, it does not go away.
Surely, O God, you have worn me out;
you have devastated my entire household.
You have bound me and it has become a witness;
my gauntness rises up and testifies against me.
God assails me and tears me in his anger
and gnashes his teeth at me;

Job 19:7
Though I cry, I've been wronged! I get no response;
though I call for help, there is no justice.

Job 21:7-15
Why do the wicked live on,
growing old and increasing in power?
They see their children established around them,
their offspring before their eyes.
Their homes are safe and free from fear;
the rod of God is not upon them.
...
They spend their years in prosperity
and go down to the grave in peace.
Yet they say to God, Leave us alone!
We have no desire to know your ways.
Who is the Almighty, that we should serve him?
What would we gain by praying to him??

Job 21:19-26
It is said, God stores up a man's punishment for his sons.
Let him repay the man himself, so that he will know it!
Let his own eyes see his destruction;
let him drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
For what does he care about the family he leaves behind
when his allotted months come to an end?
Can anyone teach knowledge to God,
since he judges even the highest?
One man dies in full vigor,
completely secure and at ease,
his body well nourished,
his bones rich with marrow.
Another man dies in bitterness of soul,
never having enjoyed anything good.
Side by side they lie in the dust,
and worms cover them both.

Job 30:20-23
I cry out to you, O God, but you do not answer;
I stand up, but you merely look at me.
You turn on me ruthlessly;
with the might of your hand you attack me.
You snatch me up and drive me before the wind;
you toss me about in the storm.
I know you will bring me down to death,
to the place appointed for all the living.

Now, after a WHOLE LOT of this, God finally shows up and enters into the conversation. Of course, you are expecting one of two responses: Either God gives Job answers to all of his questions, or God smashes Job into oblivion for daring to question his justice.

Interestingly enough, we get neither. God tells him (with some absolutely beautiful imagery), "I'm the boss, I created everything, including you, and you just do

I've read this before, but decided to read it again. The problem I always had with it was that eventually god spoke to job, forgave him for being mad, and gave him a new family, power, and wealth. Job lived happily till 140 years old and was blessed with grandchildren because he accepted what god had done to his family.

The part I can't deal with is that what happened to jobs original family. God never brought them back from death. He just gave job another family but then he needed to be pleased by a sacrifice of burning seven bulls and seven goats on an altar in gods honor.

This does not cut it for me. Jessica was killed and god didn't save her. He can come back and give her father another daughter and a million dollars and in time the father will forget about her....but I don't forgive. I don't know what this god and satan have planned, but I will never honor the god of the bible or believe in him. Geez.....what is there to honor?

Kilarin, I want to thank you for trying to help and being nice about it....but I just can't love and respect a god who inflicts pain and requires sacrifices to please him. I just can't...

Bettina

[Bet51987]

(Kilarin, I tried to answer last time but it didn't take, so I'm trying it without quotes this time.)

I've read this before, but decided to read it again. The problem I always had with it was that eventually god spoke to job, forgave him for being mad, and gave him a new family, power, and wealth. Job lived happily till 140 years old and was blessed with grandchildren because he accepted what god had done to his family. Unfortunately, God hasn't spoken to any of the parents who had kids murdered.

The part I can't deal with is what happened to jobs original family. God never brought them back from death. He just gave job another family and in return wanted a sacrifice of burning seven bulls and seven goats on an altar in gods honor.

This doesn't cut it for me. Jessica was killed and god didn't save her. He can come back and give her father another daughter and a million dollars and in time the father will forget about her....but I don't forgive. I don't know what this god and satan have planned, but I will never honor the god of the bible or believe in him. Geez.....what is there to honor?

Kilarin, Your really kind and I want to thank you for trying to help and being nice about it....but I just can't love and respect a god who inflicts pain on humans and animals. I just can't...

Bettina

[Kilarin]

Just a two or three more posts and we'll be down to a single character column. This topic has some REALLY strange formatting problems.

Job lived happily till 140 years old and was blessed with grandchildren because he accepted what god had done to his family.

God didn't "do" it, but he certainly did allow it, so I won't quibble over that distinction.
But I don't think that Job ever "accepted" what happened to his family. What Job accepted was that he wasn't going to get any answer to the "why" question in this world. (Which happens to be a problem *I* have a lot of difficulty accepting)

The part I can't deal with is what happened to jobs original family. God never brought them back from death.

From God's perspective, we were meant for eternity. Job will be reunited with his family, and after a few million years together, that 140 years of separation will look like an eye blink. Which, I freely admit, is poor comfort right now. We are like the little children who throw fits because Mommy and Daddy are going away and leaving them with a baby sitter for a few hours. The parents know that the separation will be short, but to the kid, a few hours is FOREVER.

Your really kind and I want to thank you for trying to help and being nice about it....but I just can't love and respect a god who inflicts pain on humans and animals. I just can't...

Actually, it was quite kind of you to go to the bother of reading all that. It's obvious you've been through a LOT of pain in this area, and I appreciate your willingness to listen when it obviously re-opens old wounds.

IF you feel like discussing it further sometime, I'm more than willing to continue the topic. Until then we'll keep you in our thoughts and prayers.

Kilarin