Question?

[Behemoth]

Okay, it has come to my understanding lately that more and more people are questioning things they wouldnt have before, and rightly so (since people like to learn new things) Things like evolution vs. creation, and whether or not jesus existed or not.

So my question is this, if while you are pondering whether a man who did you no harm, but actually said to live right and not mess people over, actually exsted but not only ask but give you're arguments against him as if he was a bad person?

I dont quite understand peoples hostility against the christian faith more than any other faith or religion.

Example, If you ask a satanist who he/she is against he will refer to the God of the bible, NOT buddha, science, music, or anything else... does that mean that he actually believes that God exists and jesus is his son? Apparently so, or at least from where i see it.

But yet again i dont see the hostility called for since the meat and bones shall we say of the christian message is this, \"Love one another as i have loved you\" and thats offending the world??

Please help me understand this

-Beh

[Kilarin]

I dont quite understand peoples hostility against the christian faith more than any other faith or religion.

You live (I presume) in the west, where Christianity is by far the predominant religion. If you lived in an Islamic nation, the anti-religious forces there would be directed against Islam. (Such as "The Satanic Verses" and the violent response it got)

If you ask a satanist who he/she is against he will refer to the God of the bible

Do note that actual, honest to goodness, "I worship Satan" Satanists are very rare. Many of the people who call themselves Satanists are hedonistic Athiests who just want to make it clear they are on the opposite side of Christianity, they do not believe in God OR Satan.

But yet again i dont see the hostility called for since the meat and bones shall we say of the christian message is this, "Love one another as i have loved you" and thats offending the world??

Mt 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me

It certainly offended the people when Christ himself was teaching it.

But it also goes beyond that. Christianity is made up of sinners, and they have hardly lived up to their Masters teachings. You don't have to dig very deep, or even very far back, to find numerous attrocities and injustices commited in the name of Christ.

Of course, this SHOULD have been expected. Belief in ANYTHING is dangerous. Apathetic people are unlikely to start a Crusade to recover the holy land, or to fly airplanes into buildings. Belief is a tool, you have to have it to get anything done, but the better the tool, the more dangerous it is when misused.

Kilarin

[Will Robinson]

People don't like to be judged and that is the impression people get when they encounter the representatives of an organization that tells them they must live according to the rules of an invisible undetectable omnipotent being who can cast them into a pit of fire if they fail to live up to his standards....

Combine that first impression with little to no evidence of his existence and it's pretty easy to adopt a position of denial or disbelief... and if you really don't believe he's there then his followers start to look awfully stupid and pushy.

What would you do if a stupid pushy person told you you had to do as he does or else?
If there is a god he's got a marketing problem.

To paraphrase a comment I saw somewhere:
It's not God they have a problem with...it's his fan club.

[fyrephlie]

My 2 cents:

I don't think this is really a recent upsurge in questioning. You may just be noticing it more...

As to why, humans have a need to have their questions answered.

I don't think that anyone is out to prove that Jesus was evil, but when it comes to Jesus there are a lot of questions that some people want answered.

For some, the words of the Bible ring true, and everything they know and have been taught, everything they feel tells them it is true, and that is the answer for them. They may still have a lot of questions, but as a whole they are at peace with their religous belief.

For others, like me, it does not add up, There are a lot of questions that don't seem to be answered.

A true satanist does by default have no choice but to beleive in God. Keep in mind that other religions refer to a great negative powered being, and that in some cases this being is revered. Part of the issue with Satanism is that they view things a little differently and believe a little (little being a bit of a relative word...) bit differently in regards to WHO Satan really is/was, and what his goal(s) is/are. People still worship Satan because that is where they have found their questions answered.

To try and explain it all would take a lot of work, but in a nutshell, humans have questions, and there is no great big answer book we can all agree on.

As to the Christian Church, there is another big issue I have. Because I don't like the 'Church' as an entity. And I think that is where some of this comes from as well.

Hopefully something in my ramblings will make some sense... if not, sorry.

[roid]

yeah what Kilarin said.

a quick google search and copy-paste:

Satan embodies principles of doubt and curiosity, and the root of the word Satan is \"accuser\" and \"opponent\". Satanists use Satan as an archetype that stands for challenging religious texts and dogma. The wisdom of the world whether it is science or dogma, is harmful if it breeds closed mindedness or falsehoods, therefore everything must be continually questioned. This is the scientific method, not the religious one, one of the reasons why Satanism is sometimes referred to as a philosophy rather than a religion. Some call it the \"unreligion\".

In Satanism, Satan is an archetype, a representation of certain qualities that the Satanist embodies including rational self-interest, avoidance of oppressive mentalities, the questioning of all, and a perseverance towards success and human potential.

Satan is the Archetype, among others who take the Adversary form throughout the centuries, the Satanist chooses to name this force, because of its characteristics - Many see the force as willing us to follow our nature - some may misconstrue that as \"tempting\" to sin if they view our nature as \"sinful.\"

they don't hate Jesus, they just see a greater potential without him. It's not so much that they hate christians, as much as they purposefully channel christians' hate towards them (and then put the smack down). trolling

It's been a while since i've read into Satanism, i never realised how much of an influence it had on me - reading through this stuff is almost like reading my own thoughts .

[Bet51987]

Okay, it has come to my understanding lately that more and more people are questioning things they wouldnt have before, and rightly so (since people like to learn new things) Things like evolution vs. creation, and whether or not jesus existed or not.

So my question is this, if while you are pondering whether a man who did you no harm, but actually said to live right and not mess people over, actually exsted but not only ask but give you're arguments against him as if he was a bad person?

I dont quite understand peoples hostility against the christian faith more than any other faith or religion.

Example, If you ask a satanist who he/she is against he will refer to the God of the bible, NOT buddha, science, music, or anything else... does that mean that he actually believes that God exists and jesus is his son? Apparently so, or at least from where i see it.

But yet again i dont see the hostility called for since the meat and bones shall we say of the christian message is this, "Love one another as i have loved you" and thats offending the world??

Please help me understand this

-Beh

Personally, I never had a problem with Jesus Christ. I still believe he actually did good things but I don't believe he raised the dead or did miracles. I think he was a person of love, who, when crucified, belived he was dying for me. But thats the best I can do.

I don't believe in the trinity or any of it and Jesus was not god. He was just someone I would have liked to have met. The rest is just nothing.

Bettina

[Behemoth]

Very nice replies, thank you all and please continue to help me be enlightened with you're opinions on this matter.

[Duper]

But yet again i dont see the hostility called for since the meat and bones shall we say of the christian message is this, "Love one another as i have loved you" and thats offending the world??

The "problem" is that you CAN'T distill it out like that. Scripture also tells us that God instucted that He is the One True God and there will be no other gods before (or rather in place) of Him.

"[21]. Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. [22]. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Needless to say, most everyone else doesn't want to here this. We're right and you're wrong. It's really that simple. the nature of man is evil and it likes darkness (John 3:19&20)

I was wondering the same thing a couple months back when I witnessed an explosion of hostility toward Christianity. And like I've said elsewhere.. it's going to get worse before it gets better. (Trichord can do his happy dance now )

[Zuruck]

People don't like to be judged and that is the impression people get when they encounter the representatives of an organization that tells them they must live according to the rules of an invisible undetectable omnipotent being who can cast them into a pit of fire if they fail to live up to his standards....

Combine that first impression with little to no evidence of his existence and it's pretty easy to adopt a position of denial or disbelief... and if you really don't believe he's there then his followers start to look awfully stupid and pushy.

What would you do if a stupid pushy person told you you had to do as he does or else?
If there is a god he's got a marketing problem.

To paraphrase a comment I saw somewhere:
It's not God they have a problem with...it's his fan club.

I'm aghast....this is exactly what I would have said...only better. kudos.

[Will Robinson]

People don't like to be judged and that is the impression people get when they encounter the representatives of an organization that tells them they must live according to the rules of an invisible undetectable omnipotent being who can cast them into a pit of fire if they fail to live up to his standards....

Combine that first impression with little to no evidence of his existence and it's pretty easy to adopt a position of denial or disbelief... and if you really don't believe he's there then his followers start to look awfully stupid and pushy.

What would you do if a stupid pushy person told you you had to do as he does or else?
If there is a god he's got a marketing problem.

To paraphrase a comment I saw somewhere:
It's not God they have a problem with...it's his fan club.

I'm aghast....this is exactly what I would have said...only better. kudos.

Well don't get too happy with me because my personal perspective gets a lot more confusing because I'm not even close to sure that I'm right!
If it was just a good fairy tale logic tells me it wouldn't still be going so strong after all these years....Or, to put it another way, if I am right, where are all the people who still pray to Zeus? He had an even better fairy tale.....

[Duper]

I know of a guy that still prays to Odin. o_0

[Diedel]

I dont quite understand peoples hostility against the christian faith more than any other faith or religion.

Two reasons.

#1 Actually, God demands great radicality and humility, because the base of Christianity is the declaration of being a total failure in the eyes and according to the standards of God, rightfully making you a death candidate, and that you totally depend on God's grace (undeserved favor) to save you from that.

This simply provokes the pride of many people, who cannot stand such a confrontation. Those who humbly bow to this however will experience that it is even God who will change them - if they let him.

#2 The behaviour of some Christians is provoking people, rather than attracting them. Patronizing others, or slapping them with the 'truth' is not exactly a display of the friendliness of God.

I don't know many Christians of that kind though. #1 is the true reason for rejection and persecution of Christianity. Ppl love or hate its radicality.

[Bet51987]

#2 The behaviour of some Christians is provoking people, rather than attracting them. Patronizing others, or slapping them with the 'truth' is not exactly a display of the friendliness of God.

Geez...you got that exactly right and I can show you the scars I have. Remember that religious instructor of mine?

Bettina

[Diedel]

Bettina,

looks like you have only read #2, don't you?

if you have scars inflicted to you by religious ppl, I have had such ppl chop my limbs off.

I am a very loyal person, and I have been doing a lot of work in churches (cleaning the washrooms for years, setting up the congregation hall, interpreting foreign speakers, worship team, house group leader, intercession team, counseling, doing some preaching, you name it). I don't hide my opinion though, and I will keep an independant mind. Most (christian) leaders cannot take being criticized, not even by someone they are calling a friend. I have even been accused of having an independant mind in church, can you believe that!

Result: I am done with church. Not with God and Christ, though (well sometimes you should rather say God is not done with me ), and not all churches are bad. I am just really tired of it. I have fellowship with good friends whom I really trust, and I still pray and praise. And who knows what the future will bring.

Bettina, don't trust ppl, trust friends. And God is a friend indeed.

Personally, I believe that most ppl using religion to oppress and bind others are either dumb, or full of fear (or both). The latter category needs strict guidelines for their lives to feel secure. They just cannot act differently. Avoid them if you can, or tolerate and ignore them, if you have too. Life may have more nasty surprises for you - learn to deal with them. And learn to understand such ppl, while not judging them. I got very impressed by such ppl when I was younger, but I have learned my lesson. Actually such ppl are a nice target for making fun of them (if they're not around ).

I am telling you a secret - there is an 11th commandment, and it goes: \"Don't let yourself be baffled.\"

Hehe.

[CUDA]

ok I'll reveal alittle thing about myself that will probably get my in trouble with a few people on this board, and its probably deserved. as I have not always acted in a proper manner here (forgivness) I am an Elder in my Church, granted its a small Baptist Congregation with limited numbers thats probaly why I was nominated and elected I did not run for this position in my time on this board I've had to deal with ALOT of challenging issues with my members from a church split to infidelity to a current church merger to a recent member that criticized me personally. I've found that in those dealings that if the people involved would have asked themselves 3 things before they acted most of thier problems would never have occured.

1. Am I being pridefull
2. How does this effect the unity of the body
3. How am I glorifying God by my actions

I have a tendency to be opinionated on this board, and trying to relay your true feelings to people in a chat room is almost impossible, they cannot see your mannerisms or your actions, plus I get defensive immediately because you know that you will get flamed by some here just because you are a Christian. I also sometimes let my mouth get in the way of my actions. Duper has met me several times he would probably tell you I am not what he thought I would be the first time we met.

Christ and Gods word are infalable. Christianinty is not. as Will said

It's not God they have a problem with...it's his fan club.

nothing could be more true do not throw away you relationship with God because of his fan club, study for your self, and do not forsake the gathering of the bretheren, we all need a support mechanism

[Duper]

Cuda, we both have our rough edges and probably will have the rest of our lives. I bear you no grudge in that light, as you know, I don't always hold to what I profess and it drives me nuts. I often bang my head on a wall later. (more often recently than the past)

It's a horrible cliche', but that old bumper sticker that says \"I'm not perfect, just forgiven\" contains a truth about our existance and walk. Paul even said that perfection couldn't be attained in this life (yea, that's a paraphase) but we are to stive for that goal. It's one of the reasons that gaming and net activity is on it's way out of my life. 10 years wasted is too much and there aren't many years left ahead.

[Zuruck]

Quick question.


Everyone here knows Jeffry Dahlmer. If he accepted Christ just before his head was crushed in a bathroom stall, is he in heaven? Consider what he did, or anyone else for that matter. Is Eric Rudolph going to heaven for what he did?

Seems to me that this topic is going in a different direction. My take on why Christianity is taking a bum rap lately is the push for it to be front and center. I have no problem with what people do on their own time, if they want to build a shrine and pray everyday, so be it. I don't want to do it, I don't want my everyday life to be saturated with religious ideals. Keep it out of public life and I think it would quiet down a bit. Is there anything wrong with that? Religion does not provide any sort of backbone for this country, nor any sort of moral fiber.

Moral of the story is this, if you want to pray to God...so be it...do it at home, church, in your car, wherever. But leave the people that don't want to alone, this means leave it out of the public. This country will survive, in fact, it will probably do better.

[CUDA]

re: Dahlmer, if he truly accepted Christ then yes, I'm always a bit leary of those death bed confesions tho. I geuss I'll find out when I get there

for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, \"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.\"

as for Christianinty being front and center, the \"right wing\" Christians are just now starting to fight back against orginizations like the ACLU. regardless of what anyone says they are trying to remove ALL forms of Christianity from society, not Judism, or Islam, just Christianity. there was a case recently where the ACLU represented a father who was seeking to have his Daughters Marrage annuled because she got married in a church and he was an athiest. also you have the case of Michael Newdow who again is being represented by the ACLU. there was also a case in Tennessee wher the School board is being sued by the ACLU because a \"student\" offered a prayer over the PA system before a basketball game, this prayer was not know about before hand by the school district ( I guess they forgot about the freedom of speach ) granted there is an extreme element on both side of the debate, but when 80% of American identify themselves as Christian, we MUST keep in mind that to let ANY organization tread on anyones free speach rights is shamefull. but thats ok because I try to look at like throught this perspective

1 Peter 4:14
If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

[Kilarin]

Keep it out of public life and I think it would quiet down a bit. Is there anything wrong with that?

Depends on how you mean that. Keep religion out of the government, absolutely 100% behind you. But I should no more have to keep my religion out of my "private" public life then you should have to hide your disdane for it. If I wanna carry my Bible down the street, that's my right. If I ask the government to put up the ten commandments on a bulding paid for by the tax payers, then I've stepped over the line.

The School board is being sued by the ACLU because a "student" offered a prayer over the PA system before a basketball game

As they SHOULD be in my opinion. All students have a right to participate in a public schools sports program, and to attend that sports programs events without being forced to listen to religious statements or prayers over the loudspeaker, even if those statements or prayers are being offered on a voluntary basis. This isn't a club meeting where everyone can choose to attend, or not, its an official school function where team members HAVE to attend, for credit.

What if one of the students was a Vodun (Voodoo) worshiper and they wished to have a turn to offer the prayer over the loud speaker. Would you, as a Christian, feel comfortable with that? I wouldn't

Free speech means I have the right to say whatever I want, it does NOT mean I have the right to force anyone to listen at taxpayers expense. If you want your kids to have public prayers in school, send them to private school. I do.

If Zuruch is saying I must keep my relgion quiet, then I disagree with him SHARPLY. But I also feel that my religion is SAFEST when the government doesn't try to sponsor it or force it on anyone else. Because then next time around they'll be forcing someting on ME.

Kilarin

[Diedel]

Zuruck,

you seem to have no clue of the concept of divine forgiveness as the bible describes it. Even Hitler would have been forgiven, had he honestly been seeking forgiveness. It is your nature to reject this, not God's.

It is also absolutely ridiculous to claim that Christianity wouldn't provide a moral and ethical backbone to a country. Actually, most of the ideals of western civilization(s) are rooted in a Christian view of life, and in Christian ethics. If you deny that, you have no clue of (your) history either.

Human morale only exists where the existance of let's call it \"a higher instance\" is believed holding you responsible for your deeds one day. I can see this decaying even in my wife's family members who do not believe in anything but themselves and satisfaction of their own needs and desires. There is nothing holding them back from lying and deceiving as long as they can get what they want.

You don't want your every day life to be saturated with religious ideals? Oh well, then you maybe can imagine that Christians do not want their everyday lives saturated with all the non-christian, self-centered, actually anti-human crap around them!

You are the typical non christian who is so upset about the (usually rather spurious) contacts he has with Christianity, but doesn't waste a single thought on the bombardment with objectionable ideas and lifestyles Christians are exposed to.

How about abortion, a very controversial topic? I tell you what this whole discussion really is about: It's about a truly hellish selfishness that is crying to heaven against the idea of being responsible for your actions and for protecting the life you have created, accidentally or not. I am not at all against contraception, but if young women abort under the motto \"my belly is mine\" all I can say is \"right, your belly, but not what's inside of it!\"

You look like the protagonist of selfishness to me right now.

Now are you going to tell me what a good person you are next? Visiting prisoners? Helping some poor people or so?

[Zuruck]

Kilarin, what you just said is exactly what I meant by it. YOU can do whatever YOU want with your religion. Carry your bible, put a cross in your front yard, whatever YOU want to do is fine, but don't try to push it on me. I see no use to religion, it's completely delusional, but that's MY opinion, doesn't mean that you can't pray...do as you wish.

[Diedel]

Zuruck,

did it ever dawn on you that there is a difference between cleary expressing one's (christian) views, and pressing them on somebody?

Has Kilarin being around where you live recently, looking fiercely at everybody around, wielding a big gun, asking for your name and address?

Or what's your problem?

If you don't pray, don't do it, but don't deny their right to speak out what they believe is true to Christians.

[Zuruck]

Eh Diedel, I would respond, but I'm not hijacking this thread...I'm trying to keep that to a minimum. But in one sentence, you didn't say one thing that carries any weight.

What's wrong with gay people wanting to get married?

[Diedel]

But in one sentence, you didn't say one thing that carries any weight.

Thank you. That's what you think, however, and obviously you simply can't take being pointed back to yourself.

Stop trying to avoid a substantial discussion (because that's all you're doing right now with a pretty lame excuse), and to play verbal Judo with me: Lets talk about abortion first, homosexual marriage next, alright?

[Kilarin]

YOU can do whatever YOU want with your religion. Carry your bible, put a cross in your front yard, whatever YOU want to do is fine, but don't try to push it on me.

Ah, good, that's what I HOPED you meant.

The Church does not NEED the governments help, and is much better off without it. I will protect your rights to act as a hedonistic Atheist and you will protect MY right to be a conservative Christian. Both of us think the other one is nuts, but we CAN work together.

Lets talk about abortion first, homosexual marriage next, alright?

Valid point, only one live hand grenade on the field at a time.

Kilarin

[Will Robinson]

A couple of random thoughts on the current public image of religion in general:

If Bush wasn't a professed christian there would be less public scrutiny of anything related to christianity that can be construed as activist.
Sure something like Robertsons comments would still be ridiculed as the ramblings of a loon, but if it had been Clinton instead of Bush who suggested a faith based initiative - as in churches would be a good medium for distributing community service to the citizens - at best the criticism would have been a few republicans suggesting he was just pandering. But no one would have suggested he was actually trying to change our government into a theocracy!! Certainly the mainstream press wouldn't have let those kind of assertions live, not even on the editorial pages!!

So without the current political climate I see the church bashing retreating to a normal level.

Also, in the wake of the islamikazi airplane attack on 9/11/2001 and the subsequent fight against radical islamofascists everywhere people are hyper-sensitive to religion and it's vocal supporters, especially where they comingle with political leadership.
It's actually considered cool to denounce religion now if you can subtly tie it to radicalism in your indictment. Yet it wasn't that long ago when John Lennon was practically publically lynched simply for being misunderstood when he lamented that kids were more prone to worshiping his band than Christ! So we had come a long way toward tolerance to and from the church since then until bin Ladden and his boys decided to go all jihad on our a.ss!

Again remove the current political climate and the church goes back to floating somewhere just under the radar in most secular based countries.

[roid]

Zurick and CUDA you guys both seem so mellow
Diedel seems to have taken up the energy now.

so many good things said in this thread.
i yearn for a time when religion has evolved to be truly tollerant and embracing to one another. we may say we are, but it so often feels like a war, with polarised opposites sworn to fight one another.

thesedays in politics i sometimes notice an incling of a climate of recognition and appreciation for the various advantages of the polar opposites. I know that even though i'm no conservative - i do appreciate their influence.

In our modern GLOBAL village if eventually we can get to the same the same place in regard to religion, that would be wonderful. If we could hear someone say a prayer over the loudspeaker and it not make us feel like someone was tipping the ballance. Because in the current religious climate that's what it feels like - a struggle. It will take time...

Conservatism came in around 1870 as the first counterculture (in opposition to Modernism which had always been the norm). It took 100 years to settle to the point where another 2nd counterculture came in (1970s). Where we are now is 35 years into re-settling again, the polarised groups are still at eachothers throats mostly but i think it is settling.
Perhaps in another 70years or so we'll be at peace.

[Kilarin]

i yearn for a time when religion has evolved to be truly tollerant and embracing to one another. we may say we are, but it so often feels like a war, with polarised opposites sworn to fight one another.

But both conditions should be true. I should be tollerant of the Voodoo priests right to worship as he pleases, justice and the golden rule both demand that since I want the right to worship as *I* please, I must grant it to others (So long as they do not harm others)

At the same time, the Voodoo priest and I ARE at war. We are, in my opinion, and probably his, on opposite sides of a spirtual battle. And my granting him the right to worship as he pleases, no, I'll go much further than that, I'm willing to lay my life on the line to defend the right of the Vodun to worship as he pleases. BUT, in no way will I PARTICIPATE in his worship.

Kilarin

[roid]

perhaps in time it won't be considered much of a stretch from celebrating christmas.

[Diedel]

I am willing to allow a Voodoo priest to worship his \"gods\" (demons, as far as I am concerned) as much as I am willing to allow a pedophile to abuse children: Not at all.

From a Christian point of view, God as well as evil immaterial beings do exist and can influence the world we live in. Usually, they influence ppl to do what they want them to do (God tries that, too, but my experience is that his intentions are beneficial for the human race and human individuals). So if ppl worship another \"power\" than God, they are opening up for demonic influence. Ofc non christians will be upset about what I am writing here, but that's the Christian perspective: If you're not with God, your basically against him - maybe not even by deliberate choice, but because even passivity is already chosing a side and giving way to other powers to act. If ppl open up for demonic influence, they will sooner or later affect their families, their neighborhoods and finally the whole village, town or city they live in.

So you will not catch me in the trap of false tolerance!

But - here comes the big \"but\": The question is how to fight demon worship (btw, worshipping a hedonistic, self-centered lifestyle lacking responsibility is a way of \"idolatry\", too)? The bible is very clear about this: A Christian's fight is not against flesh and blood, but against the \"powers and principalities\" in the \"air\" (i.e. the immaterial, yet existant beings around), and this fight is fought with prayer, worshipping God and exercising the divine virtue of altruistic love. From a Christian point of view doing such things is comparable to unfolding a \"force field\" or \"aura\" that negative \"spiritual forces\" cannot bear.

I hope this makes it somewhat understandable for non Christians to whom this is totally new.

Now, if you start of mocking at this way of seeing the world, calling it just a form of superstition and childish beliefs, let me ask you why the Voodoo priest obviously does not qualify for the same, but enjoys your protection? This is pretty illogical, imho.

Let me point you back to what I said above: If you're not for God, you're against him. Or do you like to hear that your way of life and thinking is so horribly bad in the eyes of God that he has decreed you deserve death for it? What feelings arise in you if you hear next that God in his immeasurable grace sacrificed himself to generously save from you the death penalty, although you deserved his offer in no way? Makes you feel great, huh?

You need quite some humility to accept that, plus the insight that it is actually true (which only God can give you, btw).

Its this radicality that upsets ppl about Christianity: It's the only 'religion' where you cannot save yourself by your own efforts, and many ppl don't like that. It provokes their pride (in a negative sense), nothing else. They just don't like to hear that they're not as good as they'd like to believe.

Personally, I tell you something: It's alright if you chose to live that way. But there is no way you will forbid a Christian to issue his/her opinions. Saying they would press their faith system on you is ridiculous (unless some Christian tries to force you to convert by putting a gun against your head). Actually, it's the non Christians pressing their way of life on the Christians, e.g. by forbidding prayer in schools. The proper way to handle this would have been to make participance in school prayer a matter of personal choice, but not forbid it altogether, because now you are taking the freedom to pray where they want to from those who want it.

It also doesn't seem to occur to you that non-, if not to say anti-Christian belief systems are attacking Christian faith 24/7. So it is alright for you to silence Christians, but Christians must bear your views and beliefs? Haha.

[Kilarin]

So it is alright for you to silence Christians

Actually, so far, everyone (Even Zuruch) has said that Christians should be able to worship as they please, even in public, as long as the government isn't involved. Roid would like all religions to melt into one sloppy lump, but no forcing is involved.

The proper way to handle this would have been to make participance in school prayer a matter of personal choice, but not forbid it altogether

There have been a few radical exceptions where the law attempted to prevent private prayer in public schools. In those cases, I'm with you, it was a silly attempt to supress Christianity where it should not have been done. But in most cases, all that has been forbidden is prayers going over the loudspeaker or said in front of the classroom. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing.
Lets look at it for a moment, suppose we allow the teachers to have a brief, non-denominational prayer in the mornings, and students can leave the room if they wish. Well, leaving aside the problems of forcing the kids who don't want to participate to leave, what exactly is meant by non-denominational? Are we going to make our prayer satisfactory to both protestants and Catholics, that can be done, but we have to make some rules about not mentioning Mary. What about Jehovah's witnesses, other Arian based "Christain" churches, and Jews? They won't want the prayer directed at Jesus, but only at God, if we include them in our "non-denominational" pool, then we need some more rules about the prayer. Unitarian Universalists?, might need a few more rules there. Are we going to try and stretch this beyond Christianity much further? We MIGHT be able to make the prayer satisfactory to Moslems if we mow out some more content and come up with a compromise on the name of God. Perhaps we can bring in the Hindu's and Budhists with some more work and a bigger axe. Now what about that Voodoo priest, does he get a chance to have some input?, and what is left of our "prayer" is a sad and scary thing that will not satisfy God OR Man.

When we allow the government to stick it's nose into religion, the biggest danger is to religion. If a Christian chooses to send their child to public school, they need to accept that one of the prices is that there will be no public prayer in front of the classroom. Have worship in the morning and pray with your child before they go to school. (that is REALLY a good idea anyway) Let your child join a club that prays outside before class starts (Yes, that SHOULD be legal). And if those solutions are not adequate, send your kid to private school instead of trying to force government involvement. Inviting the government to participate in religion in ANY way is like asking the fox to watch over the hen house. Or, for an analogy that might work REALLY well with my fellow conservative Christians, It's like asking Bill Clinton to babysit your teenage daughter. VERY like that.

Kilarin

[Diedel]

Kilarin,

alright then regarding school prayer. There would be enough other examples though (how about "faithless music", to put it short?)

i yearn for a time when religion has evolved to be truly tollerant and embracing to one another. we may say we are, but it so often feels like a war, with polarised opposites sworn to fight one another.

If you had understood the core of the Christian faith you'd know that this is utterly impossible if you wouldn't want to sacrifice exactly that core.

The central message of Christianity is:

• There is a perfect and holy God (divine trinity, the exact nature of which to explain is beyond human capabilities)
• Man is bad (and proves it every day since the beginning of history)
• Man therefore has deserved the death penalty (loss of eternal life) plus punishment (eternal pain)
• Out of love, God has taken the punishment on himself
• The only way to receive God's forgiveness is to accept that sacrifice and start a true heart-to-heart relationship with Jesus Christ
• Every force, idea, thought system, etc. opposing these statements cannot but be anti-God

How in all the earth do you want to merge this with the muslim faith, where you are measured by your deeds, or buddhism, where you will reincarnate until you have learned to live a perfect live and will dissolve in the everything and nothing (it makes me wonder how all the western people who are so fond of their individuality can strive for something like that anyway)? It's impossible.

Christianity is (should be) very tolerant towards people though. It's absolutely 'intolerant' towards ('incompatible with' is a better choice of words) ideas basically opposing it.

[Kilarin]

There would be enough other examples though (how about "faithless music", to put it short?)

Sorry, I'm being dense this morning, but I don't understand what you mean that "faithless music" would be an example of. Or exactly what "faithless music" is, secular music? Or music that specifically denegrates Christianity? or something else?

Kilarin

[Zuruck]

Diedel, I think you're missing something. America is about freedom, freedom to choose what you want to do. It's obvious to me, that if you had the chance, you would only allow Christianity in this country because you feel it's the only religion holding its beans. You maintain that you are on this high road when it comes to decisions like that...not a smart thing, arrogant as well.

Kilarin said what I basically wanted about school prayer. Pray before school in your car, but don't mandate it on those that don't want it. Not everyone shares your delusional belief in a mystical being up in the clouds.

Faithless music? You ever listened to Christian rock? DC Talk, that sort of thing? It's terrible, I'm sorry, I'll listen to my LSD based Pink Floyd over that crap any day. Peace.

[Kilarin]

t's obvious to me, that if you had the chance, you would only allow Christianity in this country because you feel it's the only religion holding its beans.

But Diedel specifically said that the battle between Christianity and other religions was a spiritual battle, not a physical one. Unless I misunderstood him, he was NOT advocating that we stop anyone from worshiping the way they see best.

I think there is much more agreement here than we realize, the two sides are just so used to disagreeing that they aren't certain how to handle it.

I'm sorry, I'll listen to my LSD based Pink Floyd over that crap any day.

I'll stick with Tchaikovsky and Dvorak myself.

Kilarin

[Zuruck]

I am willing to allow a Voodoo priest to worship his "gods" (demons, as far as I am concerned) as much as I am willing to allow a pedophile to abuse children: Not at all.

One of the things this country used to be about was that even if it offended someone else, you could still do it because their preference did not supercede your own. Diedel does not feel this way.

[Diedel]

If reading a post of more than 10 lines cannot be asked from you (giving you some insight on how a Christian should \"fight\" a Voodoo priest), you should at least ponder on the difference between \"offend\" and \"harm\" for a while, Zuruck. Maybe a little bell will start to ring inside your head after a while.

So far you haven't posted anything substantial here, only veiled accusations.

[Kilarin]

I am willing to allow a Voodoo priest to worship his "gods" (demons, as far as I am concerned) as much as I am willing to allow a pedophile to abuse children:

One of the things this country used to be about was that even if it offended someone else, you could still do it because their preference did not supercede your own.

The phrasing here is initially misleading, I realize, but Diedle does expain what he meant further down.

The difference between a Voodoo priest worshiping as he pleases and a child abuser is obvious physical harm to others. The Vodun (that IS what you call a voodoo follower, isn't it?) has a right to worship as he pleases. He even has a right to teach his religion to his children, and to anyone else who will listen. Just so long as he doesn't step over the line and hurt anyone. Our rights end where others begin.

Now technically, yes, I would consider teaching voodoo to kids harmful, but that is a clearly different kind of thing from a child molester. If we were to try and stop anyone from teaching kids a religion we didn't agree with, who would decide which religions were good and which were bad? Dawkins says that teaching Christianity to kids is child abuse, I certainly don't want to give HIM the right to tell me what I can and can not teach my kid. So when we say that you may worship as you please, just so long as you do not harm anyone, we are talking about the kinds of harm that everyone can agree upon, not spiritual issues.

Kilarin

[Zuruck]

Hmmm...haven't accused anybody of anything, merely stating my opinion.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/p ... 7985.shtml

It's interesting that in the middle of a discussion like this, an article like that pops up. Diedel, why is it, that people in the article above, and probably yourself, refuse to believe in other people having freedom of expression? You know, I don't call T.V. stations asking for Pat Robertson or Joel Osteen to be banned, I probably should, they incite more violence than anyone else. If I'm offended by something, which I never really am, I CHANGE THE CHANNEL. I don't start a movement, why, because someone else might like that program and it's NOT MY RIGHT to tell them what they can and cannot like. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why otherwise intelligent people come up short on this topic. You could be a genius Diedel, I wouldn't know, but you blindly follow something so stupid.

[Birdseye]

I am willing to allow a Voodoo priest to worship his "gods" (demons, as far as I am concerned) as much as I am willing to allow a pedophile to abuse children: Not at all.

Eh, to me the Voodoo priest is just as deluded and confused about the world as you are -- he can't prove any of his beliefs and bases his philosophical viewpoint on unprovable dogma.

From a Christian point of view, God as well as evil immaterial beings do exist and can influence the world we live in.

Based off of no evidence at all... but it's fun and ties life into neat little packages for everything bad to be 'the devil's' fault and everything Good to be related to God. All you've demonstrated is a human's desperate grasping to understand what is seemingly illogical.

If you're not with God, your basically against him

...! ...! Sorry, but I don't think the "being" who created the world would be so stupid as to have the mentality of George Bush. This is absolutely rediculous.

So you will not catch me in the trap of false tolerance!

Ahh, another Bushism: Say it enough and perhaps people will believe you, despite all evidence to the contrary! This is getting scary.

But - here comes the big "but": The question is how to fight demon worship (btw, worshipping a hedonistic, self-centered lifestyle lacking responsibility is a way of "idolatry", too)? The bible is very clear about this: A Christian's fight is not against flesh and blood, but against the "powers and principalities" in the "air" (i.e. the immaterial, yet existant beings around), and this fight is fought with prayer, worshipping God and exercising the divine virtue of altruistic love. From a Christian point of view doing such things is comparable to unfolding a "force field" or "aura" that negative "spiritual forces" cannot bear.

I hope this makes it somewhat understandable for non Christians to whom this is totally new.

I think you are off your rocker, but I understand why you believe it.

Now, if you start of mocking at this way of seeing the world, calling it just a form of superstition and childish beliefs, let me ask you why the Voodoo priest obviously does not qualify for the same, but enjoys your protection? This is pretty illogical, imho.

Hey, you are both childishly simplistic in your world view, and I think you guys should be protected equally. As far as I can tell you are the only one biased against the voodoo guy here. I also think you, like many non-christians do to you, are grossly oversimplifying Voodoo which is something you probably haven't spent much time genuinely trying to understand.

Let me point you back to what I said above: If you're not for God, you're against him.

Wow, you're really winning me over here with your impenatrable logic. I shall convert to Christianity and Bush at once!

Or do you like to hear that your way of life and thinking is so horribly bad in the eyes of God that he has decreed you deserve death for it? What feelings arise in you if you hear next that God in his immeasurable grace sacrificed himself to generously save from you the death penalty, although you deserved his offer in no way? Makes you feel great, huh?

I might be worried about this stuff if you could actually prove it and weren't just making it up. Go ahead, prove it.

Its this radicality that upsets ppl about Christianity: It's the only 'religion' where you cannot save yourself by your own efforts, and many ppl don't like that.

Nah, you are totally wrong. What upsets people is that you believe a made up story so forcefully that you begin spouting that you 'know' what god wants and thinks, although with absolutely no evidence to back your claims up.

It provokes their pride (in a negative sense), nothing else. They just don't like to hear that they're not as good as they'd like to believe.

Personally, I tell you something: It's alright if you chose to live that way. But there is no way you will forbid a Christian to issue his/her opinions.

I think you have every right to be totally off your rocker! GO you!

Have you ever considered your pride is coming out when you talk about Christianity? Think about it honestly for a second: You were smart enought to 'figure it out', right?

Saying they would press their faith system on you is ridiculous (unless some Christian tries to force you to convert by putting a gun against your head). Actually, it's the non Christians pressing their way of life on the Christians, e.g. by forbidding prayer in schools. The proper way to handle this would have been to make participance in school prayer a matter of personal choice, but not forbid it altogether, because now you are taking the freedom to pray where they want to from those who want it.

I think it's OK to pray at school on your own personal time, but it should not be an involved school activity. It's a complete waste of time from my perspective, better served teaching something educational than revelling in delusional, unprovable (hence the word Faith) doctrine.

It also doesn't seem to occur to you that non-, if not to say anti-Christian belief systems are attacking Christian faith 24/7. So it is alright for you to silence Christians, but Christians must bear your views and beliefs? Haha.

I don't think anyone is saying you should bear non Christian beliefs or be silenced. Speak in your church and in your household or community, but your faith has no place in centers of education.