Please post the forum rules. To start with..

[WarAdvocat]

I'd like a definition of "Pointless" in regards to Cafe threads.

I'd certainly hate to post something that doesn't match up to someone's exacting standard of sparkling wit or relevance and end up having my topic locked.

viewtopic.php?t=9358

pointless

...This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies...

[Krom]

This is the cafe after all, I thought it was the place for pointless threads.

[WarAdvocat]

\"heh\"

re-opened.

Still no comment from management.

[KoolBear]

lol, really WA, it seems I reopened it and made a comment

HEH

But this one is gone ...

To the Feedback forum where it should have been posted.

[WarAdvocat]

/me nods sagely.

sweep that stuff right under the rug.

[fliptw]

Spam is pointless, regardless of where. All mental masturbation is spam.

Dark wolf got his nicked changed, so he goes off and wants to know who else did it, and let everyone else know he got his nicked changed.

Because the description of the forum as \"or all topics *not* covered in other DBB forums\" doesn't mean the cafe is the waste bin of the board. Im aiming to keep the baseline of content above inanity, like the other cafe mods before me, and starting a post about a simple admin action is pure inanity.

the first thing MD said in that thread was \"spam++\".

If you had an issue with this War, you should've PM'd first, instead, the first thing I read on this is a PM from KB.

[Ferno]

lol. this isn't the first time he's done this.

[Duper]

true ferno, but it works this time as many of us over the years have had to change our name at one point or another. Like me. I used to go by Duperman, but it's too much of a mouthful and most just wound up calling me \"Dupe\" or \"Duper\". I posted about my earlier tradgity whatever.. here on this board in that thread.

You have to admit though, Dark Wolf has come a long way and has gotten much better. : )

[Ferno]

oh i'm not talking about changing names.

and by him, I mean WarAdvocat

[fyrephlie]

congrats flip... you get another hitler face!

[Krom]

Now that really was pointless firefly.

Just because the moderator is a nazi doesn't mean you aren't a spamming idiot.

[MD-2389]

Oh come on already. Enough damn bickering like children. If you have a gripe with a moderator's actions, use the PM function. If the issue isn't resolved, then PM an admin. Thats been board procedure since day one. You of all people should know this bunyip. FFS, quit acting like its a damn nazi death camp around here.

[fyrephlie]

Now that really was pointless firefly.

Just because the moderator is a nazi doesn't mean you aren't a spamming idiot.

spamming idiot? says the number 5 all time poster on the dbb, and self proclaimed 'Net Slacker'.

you don't think there is a point to everyone expressing their opinion about the actions of a moderator? You didn't seem to feel great about it, and posted that you figured since it was the cafe, why did it matter?

i posted that flip was acting like a damn nazi. i just did it without the obligatory long post of 'blah blah blah blah', but my opinion still came through right?

GETTING BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND!

why is the the general practice of the dbb to 'hide' thoughts and opinions through Private Messages?

here is how i see the private message going down:

user: hey man, why did you close that thread, it wasn't hurting anyone?

mod: i didn't like it so i closed it, it's staying clsoed.

user: that's not cool, you are acting like a jerk, it's just a little thread in a place where people converse, it's conversation.

mod: i didn't like it, and now i don't like you, blah blah blah, whatever, blah blah blah.

since it is a public forum, what is wrong with expressing opinions of public actions in a public way, allowing the 'public' to see and contribute.

[Gooberman]

In a community this small, where we have been around for as long as we have, \"board procedures\" belong in the toilet so that they can be repeatidly craped on.

[Ferno]

you guys ever hear the term 'don't crap where you eat'?

same thing applies here.


I mean really, what would you prefer to see? a bunch of posts that we've seen already or a bunch of posts that go 'this mod sucks, that mod sucks, things should be done this way, he's an idiot, he's a nazi' etc.

[Krom]

spamming idiot? says the number 5 all time poster on the dbb, and self proclaimed 'Net Slacker'.

you don't think there is a point to everyone expressing their opinion about the actions of a moderator? You didn't seem to feel great about it, and posted that you figured since it was the cafe, why did it matter?

i posted that flip was acting like a damn nazi. i just did it without the obligatory long post of 'blah blah blah blah', but my opinion still came through right?

/me looks in profile: 3.27 posts per day, * looks in firefly's profile: 12.61 posts per day.

Theres a difference between expressing your opinion and just posting a hitler image. If I want to express my opinion I would post: "I disagreed with closing that topic and I think flip is a forum nazi". Only posting some hitler image in a thread that you seem to have no reason to be posting in looks like trolling and sniping at the moderator to earn extra postcount, and that is what makes you a spamming idiot.

[fyrephlie]

spamming idiot? says the number 5 all time poster on the dbb, and self proclaimed 'Net Slacker'.

you don't think there is a point to everyone expressing their opinion about the actions of a moderator? You didn't seem to feel great about it, and posted that you figured since it was the cafe, why did it matter?

i posted that flip was acting like a damn nazi. i just did it without the obligatory long post of 'blah blah blah blah', but my opinion still came through right?

/me looks in profile: 3.27 posts per day, * looks in firefly's profile: 12.61 posts per day.

Theres a difference between expressing your opinion and just posting a hitler image. If I want to express my opinion I would post: "I disagreed with closing that topic and I think flip is a forum nazi". Only posting some hitler image in a thread that you seem to have no reason to be posting in looks like trolling and sniping at the moderator to earn extra postcount, and that is what makes you a spamming idiot.

did you understand what the image represented?

was it really necessary for me to type a lot of words so that my opinion is known?

clearly you got the idea... sorry i am not writing novels for every post, just seems a little superfluous, kinda like when you say "lol" to a funny thread. you could explain exactly what made you laugh, but you don't, do you?

trolling is one thing

spamming is one thing

adding an X2, a LOL, or short response stating your opinion to the matter is another entirely.

[Lothar]

why is the the general practice of the dbb to 'hide' thoughts and opinions through Private Messages?

Imagine we were friends in person, and I heard you say something I didn't like. Would you rather have me bring it up in front of all your friends, or would you rather have me talk to you privately?

When you have a problem with someone else, I think the most respectful and civil thing to do is to start by talking to them. Whether it's a complaint about someone's avatar, the way they moderated a thread, or the way they post, start by dealing directly with them. Only bring other people in to the discussion if the two of you can't work out your disagreement.

It's not a matter of hiding your opinion, but of showing respect for the person your disagreement is with. More than that, IMO, it's respectful to the rest of us to not drag us into a conflict that you could've solved one on one. We don't need to be involved in excessive drama every time there's a disagreement between two people here.

[Krom]

did you understand what the image represented?

I know what you are implying it meant, and it could be used to express that opinion in theory. Just like I could use the following image to sum up this entire post if I didn't I prefer to actually express my opinion with words:


You were trolling, it was obvious. If you had posted it in only one thread and not two, you might have been able to pass it as "expressing your opinion", but you didn't. I highly doubt you were even thinking of your opinion until I caused you to think up a reason to justify yourself. But whatever, it's not like I'm the DBB troll police (I'd have to arrest myself sometimes if I were). I'm just expressing my opinion.

[Gooberman]

Imagine we were friends in person, and I heard you say something I didn't like. Would you rather have me bring it up in front of all your friends, or would you rather have me talk to you privately?

I think I first registered on this board in 99', I was reading it in 98'. It's 2006. I havn't known the members of my current \"click\" for as long as I have known most of your names.

And those friends that I have whom I have known this long, I would much rather in a group have one say \"thats not cool dude,\" right then and there so I can either admit I was wrong--or defend myself to others that may have the same opinion--then have him wait tell after the fact.

There is nothing wrong with always being open. I was thinking the exact same thing as WarAdvocat when I saw that closure, but decided not to post because I've made my opinion known too many times on this type of issue.

[fyrephlie]

We don't need to be involved in excessive drama every time there's a disagreement between two people here.

it's not between two people... it's an open forum. an open topic was closed for no reason, other than the whim of a gung-ho moderator. the thread did not visibly break any rules, and did not seem to be in any way shape or form hurting this forum. it affects EVERYONE here, not the kid that opened it, or any one person here. but everyone.

and, i think it's better to keep everything open.

highly doubt you were even thinking of your opinion until I caused you to think up a reason to justify yourself

no, i knew what i was saying with the post. and you understood it. i posted in the other thread to get my opinion more visible to those here that understood it. since there are only 10 people that even look in the feedback forum where this has been hidden.

i wasn't trolling... i was stating my clear displeasure with the actions of a moderator...

beside that, instead of berating me for what you feel was trolling, you should instead feel outraged at the actions of your 'fellow staff members'.

[Ferno]

this 'gung-ho' moderator you speak of Flie has been here for about ten years. he's seen the changes happen, he's been through eveything. no one's had any complaints about him until now.

We've always had the policy of when you disagree with what a mod does, you take it to PM. even though you may know everyone in a group.

I see it like this. the new group doesn't like what the old group does and tries to make a huge scene about it in front of everyone, essentially making themselves look foolish in the process.

just because one person doesn't like how things are going on doesn't mean everyone else will just bend over backwards for them.

[MD-2389]

Not to sound like a me-tooer here, but you completely miss the point of the \"take it to PM\" guideline firephlie. The whole point is that if you have a dispute, that you take it directly to the moderator in question and hash it out privately. That way, its just you, and the mod, and no peanut gallery/lynch mob getting in the way. Public issue or not, things like this should be handled privately. Otherwise its nothing more than a \"Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!\" dribble fest. Now I'm not going to say whether or not what flip did was the right or wrong thing to do. Thats not my place to voice such things in public. However, going by the current guidelines fliptw is well within his right to close such threads. In this case, he was over-ruled by Koolbear.

This isn't about keeping things \"hush, hush\". Its about having the decency to actually talk to the person you have a gripe with rather than screaming like your mommy gave you a good spanking in the middle of a grocery store like you're being abused. If you have an issue with the way flip moderates, you talk to HIM DIRECTLY. If you can't resolve the issue, then you take it to an admin. Its called a chain of command for a reason.

[fyrephlie]

just because one person doesn't like how things are going

The whole point is that if you have a dispute

no... the whole point is that it isn't just me, or WarAdvocat... it's that many of the people here are frustrated by closing threads no matter how 'meaningless' they are. this is a good case in point.

and coming after me and my thoughts on the matter doesn't change a thing. WA started this thread because he thought this was yet another act of forum over-moderating. he was not alone. althogh there havent been a lot of posts here about it, people are angry about it.

PM is great if i wanna hear flip spout off about how right he is and how great he is. the ONLY way you folks can be held accountable is in a public forum, and that is why you are all so afraid of public threads in response to your actions.

it is rediculous that the ONLY people who are upset about a public thread like this are moderators.

DBB Inner Circle-jerk be damned... if you don't like public responses to the things you are doing, don't be jack-asses and you won't have to worrry about it.

Thank you for your open-mindedness in this matter.

Its called a chain of command for a reason

Chain of command? Wow, that's just sad.

it's a community where people are supposed to talk and have fun and enjoy their time, express their thoughts and feelings about things.

You seem to be under the impression that this is some sort of military institution. How sad.

[*JBOMB*]

[WarAdvocat]

This thread is still going? Don't you people have anything better to do

As to why I went \"public\" instead of \"PM\":

That kind of moderation is anti-facilitative of, and not conducive to the flow of discussion. It's an ongoing problem here. I've repeatedly seen mods shut down ongoing discussions with extremely flimsy justification that boils down to nothing more than whim.

And yes, I have a problem with that.


On a side note, I find myself agreeing with fyre, and I have problem with that too

[Krom]

\"outraged\" at the actions of my fellow staff members? I fail to see a reason why I should be outraged at anything the staff on the DBB does. Is it so outrageous that flip would close a thread he saw as pointless spamming? *cough* viewtopic.php?t=9324 *cough*

Outraged is far too strong to describe my reaction to pratically anything that happens on the DBB.

[KoolBear]

This whole conversation is ridiculous. I agree we have some issues that need to be addressed, but you guys won't allow time to address these issues. I think there's pet peeves that are played out here, and have begun working with some to resolve these issues, they will take time.

The problem with society in general today is a basic lack of respect of others, hell you don't have to respect a person but you should always respect the position they hold.

Gooberman mentioned that he would prefer having his ass jumped in public if he was with friends. That's all fine and dandy but it isn't the boys club members only here. The DBB has people here that don't know any of you from Joe Blow. So a little personal courtesy is indeed in order.

The chain of command was used not in the literal sense. People will always disagree, and those disagreements should be handled privately. If you can't work an issue out with a moderator then you need to contact an admin and get one of us involved, not to follow this simple proveedure shows a lack of respect to all of us.

The amount of theatrics here is staggering and uncalled for.

WA's thread was moved where it belonged, here in the DBB Feedback forum or is that out of line too?

Let me see ...

For questions, special requests, or any complaints concerning the Descent BB. Please DON'T test your user logo and or signatures here.

When you have a new moderator it's in everyone’s best interest to work out issues with them, it's a lot easier for a man to back down in private than it is in public, allow a man an out or a way to save face and if he really is a man he'll take it every time. but corner him and provide no options then you best expect him to come out with fangs bearing ill intent!

Public display’s do very little to further ones cause, usually it'll just end up making them look the fool.

It's your choice really, the guidelines for PM'ing a moderator are there for a reason, to prevent flame wars that pull the innocent bystanders down.

So treat others the way you want them to treat you, respect others and they will respect you.

But getting mad and throwing a temper tantrum never solves a problem but only makes it worse.

Oh and there is no inner circle.

[fyrephlie]

I'm going to try this one more time.

I enjoy the DBB. I enjoy the people here, and the things that are discussed. It is a fun place to come and 'hang-out'

KoolBear, Mike, I like you. I admire how hard you are trying to keep your moral compass and the dbb.net pointed in the right direction. I understand that you are looking to set a high standard. I cannot say that I agree with all the decisions you have ever made, but I know you are doing the best you can. I appreciate that quite a bit.

However, this is a situtation that mirrors others that have been at the very least, frustrating. I don't think think that this really is a huge problem. I agree with your moving WarAdvocat's thread the Feedback, honestly, it is where it belongs.

I can't say that I agree with the idea of Private Messaging moderators over disgreements with their methods and decisions. There is no reason that anyone here should feel the need to help an over-bearing moderator 'save face', especially knowing full well, that unless you are someone that means something around here, that mod will just shrug you off, feeling that there is nothing you can do to 'stop them' from doing these things, they will just claim their superiority and continue on their way. In a public forum, when these things are hashed out by the people who make up this community, changes can be made.

Again, if you don't want these things to be made public, don't do anything that needs to be publicized. Are there drawbacks to publicly hashing these things out? Of course, but it still allows a level of accountability that can't be had in a private forum.

As to respect. Let's talk about similar things. Political office for example, are you okay with out politicians sneaking around in clandestine operations, doing something 'wrong' and then slithering away? If soemthing happens, don't you want people to know, don't you want the perpetrator held accountable for their actions? I have no problem with showing respect to 'the position', held by another guy sitting in front of a computer, that has been around here actively longer than I have. I don't respect the actions taken by that person, or the idea of everyone 'hiding' in private messages.

You seem to view it as some sort of honorable thing, it is not, it is wrong to feel that talking publicly is a bad thing, perhaps you should head off to someplace like China, where free speech, and public speaking against the powers that be are actually punishable by death and imprisonment. Obviously that is an extreme example, but it is honestly all I am hearing right now.

Now, for the more personal attacks you are levying:

Theatrics. No, that is an almost silly way of putting it. I am trying to discuss things openly, you are shying away.

Public displays making someone to look the fool. Perhaps you feel I look foolish speaking out against this type of mentality, but understand that your point of view is from a 'position of power', imagine the regular users who don't know about these things, or are just plain afraid to talk here, because they may not have a 'worthy' discussion.

Getting mad and throwing a temper tantrum? No. Being frustrated and voicing an opinion? Yes.

I'm sorry that you feel, backed into a corner KB, but the truth of the matter is that I (and others here) feel that the actions of the 'elite' need to be addressed.


(BTW, Krom, yeah it made sense to close that thread. It was funny, but served its purpose. It is really nothing like the thread that we are discussing.)

[Ferno]

what the hell is this 'moral compass' crap, anyways?

one thread is closed by a person who has been here forever and all of a sudden it's 'OMG HE'S A NAZI! WE MUST REVOLT!'

How come I don't see any complaints about what Krom did? or anyone else?

\"no... the whole point is that it isn't just me, or WarAdvocat... it's that many of the people here are frustrated by closing threads no matter how 'meaningless' they are. this is a good case in point.\"

I would agree if he was closing threads left and right that are authored by one user or two, but this is hardly like that. But in this case it's just been a few users bitching. If there actually was a problem we'd be hearing the older members saying something. But we don't, do we.

Don't you people have something bigger to complain about? this isn't china or whatever.

[Kilarin]

There is no reason that anyone here should feel the need to help an over-bearing moderator 'save face',

How about a compromise? It seems to me perfectly reasonable to give the moderators the benefit of the doubt. When they do something you don't like, approach them first in a PM. There may be reasons you were not aware of, or things going on that you did not know about.

THEN, if you aren't happy with the answer, it might be time to take the issue public. Doing a PM first at least gives the moderators a CHANCE to explain things. It implies that we assume there IS an answer, as opposed to a public post, which implies the opposite.

[Lothar]

this is a situtation that mirrors others that have been at the very least, frustrating.

The guidelines for closing threads, etc. need worked out in general. That's been an ongoing discussion, and it's likely to keep going for a while.

If you want to have a discussion about the philosophy of moderation, in general, let's do that. If you want to talk about how you think fewer threads should be closed, let's do that. And if you want to talk about how some particular moderator has closed way too many threads and brushed you off despite repeated PM's, we can do that. That's what this forum is here for.

But that's not the situation we have here. The situation we have here is that a single moderator closed one and only one thread, and as far as I can tell, NOBODY approached him asking for an explanation.

I can't say that I agree with the idea of Private Messaging moderators over disgreements with their methods and decisions.... knowing full well, that unless you are someone that means something around here, that mod will just shrug you off

IF they shrug you off, then you take the discussion a step further. Otherwise, it's unnecessary drama, and it's disrespectful to him.

You're sitting here talking about holding people accountable, and so on. If a moderator is *consistantly* causing problems, I agree, there needs to be a public discussion to hold them accountable. But you don't "hold someone accountable" because you had one disagreement with them one time and never even asked them about it.

The way you describe the mod in question is just plain ridiculous. You're talking about how he'll just shrug you off, he's an overbearing Nazi, he needs to be held accountable because he's unreasonable in private, and so on. All after he closed *one* thread for being "pointless", and all without anyone (as far as I can tell) asking him for an explanation or requesting that he change his mind. How can you tell he's going to brush you off if you've never tried talking to him? How can you tell he's going to be unreasonable if you didn't try reasoning with him?

We may or may not have mods here who fit the above description. But I don't think it's even remotely fair to *assume* a new mod is going to fit that description based on his closing one thread. I'm going to modify what Kilarin said slightly: it's perfectly reasonable to give each moderator the benefit of the doubt until they give you reason to think otherwise. Start by assuming you can reason with one another like a normal human being. Only bring the rest of us in to the discussion if it turns out you can't.

[Ferno]

A Lotharburger has just been served with the usual side of ownage.

[Krom]

Say that thread I closed in the tech forum, if thewolfe PMed me and asked me politely to open the thread so he could ask some more questions I would open it for him.

I will respond to any reasonable polite request I get in a PM, I think any other moderator or administrator here will also if you try. But if someone comes and posts some thread calling me a nazi and ranting about how I close everything, I'll probably just send it to the feedback forum and ignore them.

[MD-2389]

And another thing, you people think we're forum nazis? You don't even know the meaning of the term. I've dealt with the real thing in the past, much to my dismay. Thats the very reason I refuse to post on HLP anymore. I posted a thread in their \"off-topic\" forum that contained a smiley. That smiley was basically a \"Star Trek vs. Star Wars\" joke. Both would \"ignite\" lightsabers, and both would make their blade bigger. Right when the other smiley made his the larger of the two, the other one shot him with a \"phaser\" which turned him into a pile of ash ala looney tunes. I made a joke about it being a \"fight\" between me and Thunder (one of the admins there, whom later changed his handle to \"Kalfeih\"). That son of a ★■◆● actually threatened to ban me just because of that. He was going on a damn crusade to \"purify\" the board there. That happened about three years ago or so. The only time I had logged in since was when that ★■◆● with Derek Smart happened. I haven't logged in since. I'd dig up the thread for you all to view if gamespy had a pipe worth a damn.

edit (1-31-06): This is the smiley that almost got me banned from HLP:

http://www.midasarray.com/vb/images/smilies/phaser.gif

[*JBOMB*]

Hmm MD...wonder if thats one of the reasons you turned around and then did the same thing to me not too long after that. (power trip nsht)

I love how this thread degraded in true DBB fashion.
What lothar said is correct \"Nobody came to a mod in pm to talk about it\"

Now go read the thread starters post again...He's merely asking at what point is a thread \"pointless\"...That way he doesnt post anything \"pointless\" and get his thread closed..

In other words...hes basically \"calling out\" flip for pretending to know what is and isnt relevant to people who frequent this place...

So what if said poster is a mini ace combat to you guys...if he hangs out here enough and reads all of your dribble cant you skip over his now and again?

Yet you guys turn it into another mods vs the people that make up your community war...I love it...

[Ferno]

JB, flip's been a mod for ages here. no one has complained about what he's done up until now.

You're makin it out to be like this is world war two or something.


This is starting to look like the new crew doesn't like what the old crew does and the new crew is gonna cry about it in front of the biggest audience possible.

yay for drama!

[MD-2389]

Hmm MD...wonder if thats one of the reasons you turned around and then did the same thing to me not too long after that. (power trip nsht)

Power trip my ass.

Now go read the thread starters post again...He's merely asking at what point is a thread "pointless"...That way he doesnt post anything "pointless" and get his thread closed..

Yes, but if you bothered to read the rest of the thread, thats exactly what should've been handled via PM instead of posting something like this knowing damn well it'd start a "help help! I'm being repressed!" me-tooing crapfest.

In other words...hes basically "calling out" flip for pretending to know what is and isnt relevant to people who frequent this place...

Which should've been handled privately. See Lothar's posts.

Yet you guys turn it into another mods vs the people that make up your community war...I love it...

And who are you, the knight in shining armor coming to slay the oppressive dragons keeping everyone locked up in chains?

[Lothar]

He's merely asking at what point is a thread "pointless"...

He's not "merely asking" so he knows how not to post pointless stuff, he's posting an accusation / complaint in the form of a question he doesn't want answered. As you said, he's "calling out" flip, not "merely asking". He's making a public challenge to flip without having ever asked the question privately. To pretend the mods are turning this into a fight, as if WA's post was completely non-provocative, is incredibly dishonest.

As I said before, I think a lot of the moderating issues on this board need discussed. But this is not the right way to go about calling attention to it. Calling a guy out for having judgement that differs from yours, and asking for an exact definition for something you *know* is a judgement call, especially having never asked him personally about it, is lame. If you have a problem with flip, talk to flip. If you have a problem with MD, talk to MD. If you have a problem with me, talk to me. If, after talking, you don't get anywhere, *then* talk to an admin or bring up the issue here. And if you have a problem with the general philosophy of how the boards should be moderated, start a discussion about general ideas of moderation without the accusations veiled in bogus questions.

If you're just here to start a fight, I'm not interested in hearing it. If you're here to call out a particular mod, I'll tell you just what I tell my students -- don't talk to me, talk to the person you've got a problem with. But if you have a serious suggestion for how we as a whole should moderate differently, please, share it in a civil manner, and we'll exercise our judgement accordingly.

[*JBOMB*]

whatever...keep trying to keep your members \"in check\"...

Now can someone just answer the original question?
Whats the formula currently being used for determining a \"pointless\" post...Just curious..

*EDIT*: Lothar beat me to the punch...and uh..i hate confrontations with him cause he usually right...and even if i dont agree with him hes always way too cool headed and nice to talk trash to..

So anyway...no i dont want a fight...i just think its retarded how posts like this get all turned around and people focus on one thing instead of looking at the big picture (this one was the PM thing)...

my 2 cents that im sure most of you will ignore
~