Congress invites Google

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Congress invites Google

Post by ccb056 »

Both companies have been asked to speak before members of Congress in the coming weeks, as part of a broader look at freedom of speech and the Internet in China. Neither firm has indicated what level of cooperation they will provide.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... GUND81.DTL

What do you think about Google's 'censorship'?

I don't think that they are doing anything illegal, Google has the right to run whatever algorithim they want for search queries. By running an algorithim that does not display certain pages, they are not breaking any laws.

Google 'censors' websites all the time, my website is 'censored' from the keyword 'misearable failure'.

Google is'nt performing any censorship, it does not block access to websites. It is still possible to visit websites without using Google.
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Post by fliptw »

Its about doing a searching in china about, say, Tieanmen Square, and having only sites that support the offical government position on that day.

you need to review the definition of censorship, as its obivous you are unclear on it.
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Post by Lothar »

Compare:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tiananmen
http://images.google.cn/images?q=tiananmen

Google most certainly is censoring results (not websites, results) in China by modifying their algorithm to only display websites that match up with the official government position. The chinese government already censors websites, so with google censoring their results (and therefore not showing their cached versions of certain websites) they're providing the other half of what the Chinese government is looking for in terms of control of information.

This is the direction the US government is looking at the question from -- how is the Chinese government cracking down on information? Their question isn't really about google (or Microsoft or any of the other companies doing similar things), it's about China's government.

Now, the question I have for Google -- a company whose motto is \"don't be evil\" -- is what they're trying to accomplish. Do they think this is a good way to make money? Or do they think limited searches are better than no searches at all, so they're pretending to cooperate with the Chinese government in order to sneak just a little info past? If they're doing it for money, they've broken their motto big-time... but if they're doing it in order to spread what little freedom they can, I'm perfectly happy with their solution. If they're trying to slowly erode the information barriers, knowing the Chinese government won't let them do anything more, then good for them. If they're just being greedy, then screw them.
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Post by ccb056 »

Google is not censoring anything. Google is simply a search engine that displays results based on an algorithim.
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Post by Tricord »

They just prefer to \"censor\" themselves instead of having the chinese government impose it on them. It shows respect to the local rules (how inappropriate they may be) and puts both parties on good terms for future development.

Note that Google is doing just the opposite with the US government, i.e. non-compliance.

It really depends on the context, and of course, what's in it for both parties.
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Post by ccb056 »

They are compliant with the United States. The only way Google could be non-compliant with the United States is if Google broke US law in the US.
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Post by Nirvana »

I had this conversation with a co-worker the other day. Who cares if google is censoring stuff for China? THEY ARE RESPECTING THE RULES OF THE COUNTRY THEY ARE SERVING! If China won't allow google unless they censor, google has to honor that or gtfo. If google doesn't take their money, someone else will. The blame of wrongdoing is on China's head, not google's.
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Post by ccb056 »

Exactly, the US government needs to stop dictating to buisnesses on how to conduct buisness.
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Post by Lothar »

ccb056 wrote:Google is not censoring anything. Google is simply a search engine that displays results based on an algorithim.
Right... and they've modified their algorithm in order to censor the information they display so that it matches up with the rules of the Chinese government.
They are compliant with the United States.
Right again. Like I said, the US isn't investigating to see if Google broke the US law; they're investigating to see how the Chinese government is violating human rights, and how Google is interacting with that government.
N-Sheep wrote:The blame of wrongdoing is on China's head, not google's.
China is definitely doing wrong. Google may or may not be, depending on their motivation. And they may or may not be breaking any US or international laws by doing so. "Ethical" and "legal" are different questions.
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Post by Duper »

As a side note searching on that first link, I ran into THIS

I've heard of this from other sources including an Iranian gal who was a nurse when she was there (she's in her late 50's) and told me basically that this article is talking about.

You want to talk "censorship"? Turn on the nightly news. oh, the PC term I guess would be "bias viewpoint".
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Post by fyrephlie »

this is very similar to the way that microsoft censors, removes and dissalows chinese people from 'illegal' speech on their msn blog (spaces i think...) thing... this is what they 'must do' to be allowed in the country they are operating in... why is this a big deal?
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Post by Nirvana »

fyrephlie wrote:this is what they 'must do' to be allowed in the country they are operating in... why is this a big deal?
exactly..
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Post by fliptw »

Nirvana wrote:
fyrephlie wrote:this is what they 'must do' to be allowed in the country they are operating in... why is this a big deal?
exactly..
If its policy in China, how easily will it become policy here?
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Post by fyrephlie »

fliptw wrote:
Nirvana wrote:
fyrephlie wrote:this is what they 'must do' to be allowed in the country they are operating in... why is this a big deal?
exactly..
If its policy in China, how easily will it become policy here?
that statement doesn't really make sense... we are talking about a political policy in a communist country preventing freedom of speech...

'here' is a country where a man can stand up and scream obscenities toward passerbys in the name of such freedoms.

also, do you really think that google, a huge multi-national corporation taht makes money based solely on advertising through their vast search engine, will in anyway 'censor' their results if they don't have to?

no... let them operate in china. all you have there are farmers running *nix boxes provided cheap by intel...
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Post by MD-2389 »

What he's talking about is google bowing to the government in control instead of telling it as it is. What's to stop google from censoring results to just pro-conservative or pro-liberal media? Who cares if thats what they \"had to do\" to keep from being blocked by China's internet SS dogma. Its the ABUSE that what concerns us.
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Post by Lothar »

fyrephlie wrote:this is what they 'must do' to be allowed in the country they are operating in... why is this a big deal?
Two points:
1) I think censorship in China, in general, is a big deal for the US government regardless of what you think of Google's involvement. The fact that the US government is calling Google to testify doesn't particularly mean anything for Google except that they're a witness to Chinese censorship.

2) It *is* a big deal if Google, who has the corporate motto "don't be evil", has decided to cooperate with evil in the name of money. It's not a big deal if they've decided to fake cooperation in order to sneak a little bit of freedom past the Chinese government censors. Their motivations are tremendously important. But they can't exactly admit "we did it to sneak stuff past the Chinese government" without getting their access cut off.
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Post by fyrephlie »

Lothar wrote:
fyrephlie wrote:this is what they 'must do' to be allowed in the country they are operating in... why is this a big deal?
Two points:
1) I think censorship in China, in general, is a big deal for the US government regardless of what you think of Google's involvement. The fact that the US government is calling Google to testify doesn't particularly mean anything for Google except that they're a witness to Chinese censorship.

2) It *is* a big deal if Google, who has the corporate motto "don't be evil", has decided to cooperate with evil in the name of money. It's not a big deal if they've decided to fakecooperation in order to sneak a little bit of freedom past the Chinese government censors. Their motivations are tremendously important. But they can't exactly admit "we did it to sneak stuff past the Chinese government" without getting their access cut off.
1. yep

2. depends on what you really think evil is. they are out to make money, not save the planet from communism. they are not, nor will they ever be capable of 'fixing' china... i don't think that by 'censoring' anti-government pages from their services they are joining up with the chinese government to promote evil.

i am not saying that i agree with the idea of them doing what they are doing to operate in china. but they are...

the problem is that it is hard to balance business with morality.
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Post by roid »

This is all a question of Morals, Comprimise, and Motivations.

Should ALL companys boycott China because of their differing standards? Tons of companys do business in China for the sole REASON that their different laws allow for things like cheap sweatshop labour (that are illegal in the USA). So we're obviously not talking about illegality here, this is solely about MORALS (and maybe also Lothar's suggestion of Google being able to give congresses inside info on how China's policys work)

So USA's local censorship laws are not part of the issue here. But those laws are based on liberalist ideals that made USA what it is today - a 1st world free (no jokes pls) nation. iirc it was America who historically was at the forefront of pushing the boundarys and furthering the goal of liberalism. Even if that isn't true (honestly, i don't know), Americans are culturally very proud of this \"FREEDOM! YAAAR!\" pioneering heritage, and good on em :).

I've always thought of Google as one such company who holds it's ideals close to it's heart. Many internet startup companys are run by idealistic Geeks who often have similar humanistic goals, so it's no surprise. One of these cultural american ideals - Freedom of Speech - seems to be one thing that Google has always stood for.

Google obviously desperately wanted access to the Chinese market. But as Lothar said: what is their motivation?. I'd also like to add in another question which i think is important: What does this action of theirs say about their true ideals?

Google's latest refusal to comply with the government anti-porn-thingy may actually be similar to this China issue. On many fronts Google has resisted bending to the government's demands for disclosure of information, on the grounds of preserving the privacy of it's users. But this has obviously been at the expense of law enforcement - Google's actions to save the privacy of it's users actually make it easier for many people to DO HARM - child pornography for example - Google, in protecting ALL it's users, is also protecting child pornography.

So it seems that Google's policy of \"doing no harm\" does not extend out as far as taking an active effort to \"curb/combat\" harm within it's own Google borders. It seems to rather be liberally complacent to the harm that other people can do using it's technology - it wants to keep it free for all even if that means being complacent to the harm which is indirectly done. It's freedom/liberalism at all costs, taking the good with the bad. That's what i think it reveals about the true nature of their ideals. The \"Do No Harm\" policy must not refer to indirect harm. Doctors still operate on convicted murders, even thought they are well aware that their actions may indirectly lead to more deaths - does the Doctor's compliance mean that he is indirectly guilty of the murderer's subsequent murders? What are the doctor's motivations for operating on the murderer?

The doctor operates on the murderer because he has taken a (hypocratic) oath to only see the smaller picture. His oath is to operate on everyone without judgement, and take comfort by telling themselves that if harm is done indirectly - that it still conforms to the \"do no harm\" portion of their hypocratic oath.
Perhaps Google's ideal is on similar grounds, that they are dedicated to providing their services no matter what. Perhaps as Lothar suggests: they are hopeful of better times in the future, and believe that this action of theirs will help to work towards that goal. And then excuse their actions by claiming that the harm done is indirect.

But the China thing, this is looking to be Google actually directly complying and ACTIVELY involving itself in China's censorship scheme - a scheme which undeniably DOES HARM by limiting information to people. Google's involvement in this seems to be at the level where they are themselves ACTIVELY DOING HARM by writing code which indeed \"does harm\" by censoring information.

The only way i can think of for them to morally defend themselves is for them to be able to prove that it was all China's doing - with China writing the code, offering it to Google who then integrated the code into Google.cn to comply with local law. Google's choice being to either comply or face explusion from China - they chose to comply. A form of \"entrapment\".

But i don't really think that's what happened. If you ask me, what really happened is that Google was sick of the threats to ban them from China, so Google themselves wrote the code and OFFERED it to China. I think Google is an ACTIVE participant in this \"harm doing\". Therefore they can't get outof it by crying that China engaged in \"entrapment\".

This could perhaps be similar to IBM and the Holocaust.

As Lothar said: What is their motivation?
- If they are in it for the money, then they suck.
- If they are in it for the power - saying that \"by having our foot in the door like this, we will be in a better position to change things for the better\". It's comprimising your goals NOW so that you have a better position of power and influence in the FUTURE. It's morally dubious to comprimise your ideals like that for a future goal - most of us know that comprimise after comprimise is what eventaully turns good idealistic politicians BAD.

Also, the fact remains that a lot of people see Google's actions as not only immoral, but inherently UNAMERICAN, they see them as aiding the enemy. To those people i say this: the very concept of \"nations\" is slowly becomming an archaic concept. We are moving towards a single global village. International corporations may grow until they replace nations in the power they weild. And the internet looks to be the emerging socialism to counteract their power.
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Post by Zuruck »

Please, the US govt is THE MODEL for how all business should be run, we all know that.
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Post by Kilarin »

roid wrote:Google, in protecting ALL it's users, is also protecting child pornography.
Yes, just as our bill of rights protects drug dealers by forbidding warrantless searches.

The price of freedom is a little less security. It is a price worth paying in my opinion.
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Post by Lothar »

roid wrote:It's comprimising your goals NOW so that you have a better position of power and influence in the FUTURE.
I wouldn't phrase it that way at all.

I'd phrase it as "taking a small step toward your eventual goal". Pre-google, freedom of speech in China was excessively limited. With google involved, it's still limited to the same degree; nothing has changed. But this does possibly open the door for Google to push, ever so slightly, on the Chinese government.

In other words, one thing they *may* be doing (but certainly can't admit to) is making the situation in China slightly better because that's the best thing they think they can do with the limited power they have. They're not going to make it better overnight, but maybe their motivation is to take everything the Chinese government will let them get away with.

Of course, they could also just be in it for the money and not care one bit about the people of China.
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Post by roid »

Kilarin wrote:
roid wrote:Google, in protecting ALL it's users, is also protecting child pornography.
Yes, just as our bill of rights protects drug dealers by forbidding warrantless searches.

The price of freedom is a little less security. It is a price worth paying in my opinion.
i agree, with both Google's anti-porn resistance and the illegitamacy of warrantless searches. I see Google as a force of nature. I don't think it should be the lawmaker's perogative to control the very laws of physics of our world. Google should remain as pure from censorship and bias as it can. It's not for Google to take sides here, they should be a part of the battlefield this war is fought on, they should not take sides but provide services for all sides freely. "...your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." :P
Whoever can control the landscape itself would have unbelievable power, it is not upto man to weild this power and be the Judge. For "man dominates man to his injury".

i can't believe i just used the Bible of all things to justify my stance on libertarianism :lol:. "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews" eh :P

Lothar i hope you're right, coz i've always liked Google as a company
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Post by Kilarin »

roid wrote:i can't believe i just used the Bible of all things to justify my stance on libertarianism Laughing.
Ha! But the quote WAS highly appropriate. :)
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