Microsoft Sidewinder 3D Pro - King of the Ancients

[Sllik]

Howdy. Long post. Forgive me.

It's been an interesting couple of weeks. I decided I'd take the plunge and attempt to find something that would replace the Sidenwinder 3D Pro as my trusted companion in days of old. Rather than either going forward with Grendel's option or building up an old PC with a Soundblaster Live I had sitting in a box collecting dust, I tried the two most loathsome alternatives:

1) Trying my hand as a Descent mouser
2) Finding a new stick

The first option was the most obvious to me, since I'd done (and continue to do) exceedingly well at a great many other FPS games with the mouse. d2x-xl especially makes this nice, as the feature that was built in for mouselook support ramps up the smooth responsiveness. I was most impressed. Then I moved over to D3... and found my ability to interact with the mouse frustrating. It may be that I have a bad mouse + settings configuration, though I've tweaked extensively with the MS optical I'm using. Someone might be able to help me out in this arena with advice. The one thing I haven't tried yet is getting a higher quality 'gamer' mouse that supports 1600 dpi, for example. If this is a route worth taking, let me know. Weirdly enough, I don't seem to have the same problem in D2, so I'm uncertain of the root cause. In the end, I felt like I had better control over my aim than I would with a stick, but couldn't dogfight anywhere near as good. The insane moves I used to be able to do were denied me in a mouse-controlled setting. So I went for option 2...

I spent the majority of the past two weeks doing research, trying out various brands of joysticks, and subsequently returning them. Keep in mind that I hadn't touched my Sidewinder 3D Pro in at LEAST 4 years, so I was under the assumption that such a span of time would mean I was going to have to relearn some of my skills from scratch as it was. I might as well relearn on a new stick that supports USB and is in current circulation, right?

After trying out a Thrustmaster product, two different Logitech options, and 3 different Saitek options (the most recent being the notable X52 system), I had come to the decision that I simply had lost all prowess with a joystick and nothing but hours upon hours of practice would do the trick. Even the X52 still had a bit of a deadzone to deal with, despite its dizzying software configurations. I got it to a point where memory told me that it was almost if not exactly as responsive as the 3D Pro was. I tried adjusting the stick so that it would fit my hand better, but the shape of the stick itself is so off-the-wall and grip-UNcomfortable when constantly using the twist and hat simultaneously that I found I couldn't play for very long. And it still didn't quite do the trick. Something was missing. The hat was badly-placed, compared to what I was used to, and it generally just didn't feel right. I spent hours trying to get to the point where it would feel more natural for me, or I would start learning to compensate for whatever it was I couldn't define. No luck.

So at the end of my two-week stretch of frustration (today), I built up a tertiary box from spare parts with an old Voodoo card and a Soundblaster Live, pulled out the 3D Pro, dusted it off, hooked it up, copied over my d2x-xl folder, and fired it up.

Jeebus H. WTF! Night and day difference. Not a single joystick that I could get my hands on in the 2 weeks of visiting computer stores feels like this stick. Is my brain just so hard-wired to the feel and response of this product that I'm doomed to failure if I try to reclaim my former skill and glory with anything less? Why in the Nine Hells did they stop manufacturing this device?

I spent some time trying to figure out what the difference between the 3D Pro and other sticks was. Most of you would be able to rattle those differences off without thinking, and some of them are obvious. Design / feel / placement of the hat, for example. The almost-nonexistant play in the stick seems to be another. But one that I didn't realize at first until I pulled up the calibration screen for various sticks was a little less obvious. When I move other sticks in the calibration screen, there seems to be a slight ramping of the + placement, whereas the movement of the + for the 3D Pro seems more consistent and very precise with no guesswork (at least for me). Has anyone looked into this further? Is it because it's digital instead of analog? Are there other digital sticks that behave the same currently on the market? I thought I'd post this and ask these questions because I'm betting someone already knows the answer. For all I know, I had these answers at one time and have forgotten them.

Something noteworthy, though... I cannot get the same sense of control out of even the 3D Pro (or the mouse, for that matter) in D3 that I can get in D2. Does anyone know the reason for this? Did I know the reason for this and have just forgotten after all this time? Was this the reason I loved D2 so much more than D3? I can hope that someone gets the opportunity to hack D3 and make it play more like D2 at some point in the future, but the chance of that is slim and would probably alienate the die-hard D3'ers. A shame. D3 is beautiful and smooth and offers seriously fun gamepaly that D2 didn't have... and yet... I can't MOVE and DO what I want in Descent 3 like I can in Descent 1 and 2.

I hope Core Decision's controls and maneuverability are closer to D2, because if not, I will simply have to admit defeat and stay rooted in the glory days of Descent 2 when it comes to 6DoF games. Maybe the Doom 3 mod is another option that will recapture the feel I'm looking for (or at least make mouseplay more viable, since that's the primary input mechanism for the Doom games).

For what it's worth, the memories that have come flooding back to me after firing up d2x with a Sidewinder in my hand have been enough to bring tears to my eyes. So long ago... so much fun... I'm VERY glad at least a few of you are still around to share it with. I posted the following thought a few days back in a new thread and it's stuck in my head on an almost constant basis since then, echoing around in my skull and making me feel better. It rings true with me and gives me a bit of solace.

\"Old Descenters never die. They just moth into new challenges.\"

- sLLiK

[Grendel]

I better get a few more converter going ..

[Xamindar]

Very nice read. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[BUBBALOU]

that coverter makes the 3d pro rock in D3 as long as you kill the deadzone, otherwise it is just Sloppy

[Top Gun]

that coverter makes the 3d pro rock in D3 as long as you kill the deadzone, otherwise it is just Sloppy

To tell you the truth, I tried it with Grendel's suggested deadzone fix, and I actually found that I prefer the feel of it without it. Since my stick's several years old, it has some natural slack in the middle, and killing all of the deadzone made the thing incredibly sensitive to the slightest motions of my hand. I like to have that little bit of give there.

That's a great story, Sllik. Over the few years I've been in this community, I've seen so many examples of people who just couldn't stay away from this game. It's a very heartening feeling.

[zbriggs]

I hope Core Decision's controls and maneuverability are closer to D2, because if not, I will simply have to admit defeat and stay rooted in the glory days of Descent 2 when it comes to 6DoF games.

We designed the game to be more like D1/2 not like D3.

[Grendel]

To tell you the truth, I tried it with Grendel's suggested deadzone fix, and I actually found that I prefer the feel of it without it. Since my stick's several years old, it has some natural slack in the middle, and killing all of the deadzone made the thing incredibly sensitive to the slightest motions of my hand. I like to have that little bit of give there.

I would suggest to go ahead and use the deadzone fix to get rid of the default DirectInput DZ. After that use the -deadzone commandline switch to have D3 apply a more controlled DZ

[Sirius]

Microsoft's hardware is consistently better than their software... :(

[CDN_Merlin]

Microsoft's hardware is consistently better than their software...

I have to agree. I've had a few 3D Pros and I own 2 of thier Sidewinder Wheels, one FF and the other not. They both rock compared to the other wheels out there.

[Top Gun]

To tell you the truth, I tried it with Grendel's suggested deadzone fix, and I actually found that I prefer the feel of it without it. Since my stick's several years old, it has some natural slack in the middle, and killing all of the deadzone made the thing incredibly sensitive to the slightest motions of my hand. I like to have that little bit of give there.

I would suggest to go ahead and use the deadzone fix to get rid of the default DirectInput DZ. After that use the -deadzone commandline switch to have D3 apply a more controlled DZ

You know, I was thinking that that was what I should probably have done, but at the moment I was too lazy to bother with guessing-and-checking to get the right value.

[PUFFER1]

well im using my 3d pro still on my new sytem.im using the soundblaster audigy zs and it works fine

[bobo]

Well I just purchased my first 3D Pro off of ebay, new in box. I'm hoping that it replace my Logitech Wingman Extreme as the my stick of choice.

[dixonh2]

Hey, old pros in this thread...

I'm just getting my new Sidewinder 3D Pro configered. Had a few easy questions for anyone willing to help.

1 The slider rotator at the left base of the joystick: what does it do? Does not seem to have any effct on anything. But it does respond in the CPanel\\Game Controller Slider configuration.

2 When I twist the stick the ship rotates on the front-rear axis like I was doing barrel-rolls in an airplane. I had thought twisting the joy right or left would do a quick 180 snap-turn to the rear so I could fire at what's behind me as needed. It responds OK in the CPanel\\Game Controller configuration and setup as the Z-Rotation.

TIA

[catch22]

Hey, old pros in this thread...

I'm just getting my new Sidewinder 3D Pro configered. Had a few easy questions for anyone willing to help.

1 The slider rotator at the left base of the joystick: what does it do? Does not seem to have any effct on anything. But it does respond in the CPanel\\Game Controller Slider configuration.

2 When I twist the stick the ship rotates on the front-rear axis like I was doing barrel-rolls in an airplane. I had thought twisting the joy right or left would do a quick 180 snap-turn to the rear so I could fire at what's behind me as needed. It responds OK in the CPanel\\Game Controller configuration and setup as the Z-Rotation.

TIA

1. I'm assuming you're talking about the throttle. It works depending on the game. Never had to use it in Descent so I'm unsure if it works in it, but ...

2. In your joystick control setup. Towards the bottom is a listing of all your axis, and their corresponding control. This is where you set what joystick axis controls what ship axis. To do so, you select the axis, hit enter, then move the joystick axis you wish to use. So if the throttle does work, you can find out by following the instructions above.

Also, if the joystick is automatically set to use the "twist" as your pitch controls, you may have the switch on the bottom of the joystick set to the wrong position. If your setting up the joy as a Microsoft 3dpro in Windows, that switch needs to be set to 1 (one dot). If your setting it up as a Thrustmaster Flight Control System, that switch needs to be set to 2 (two dots). If you venture to set it up as a CH Flightstick Pro, you need to use 1, but you'll only be able to use one button at a time.

[Top Gun]

The throttle should work fine in all three of the Descent games.