Who?

[Bet51987]

I saw this in the comic strip \"Funky Winkerbean\" and thought it was sad.

There is a soldier riding in the back of a vehicle which is patrolling the nightime city. His duty is to prevent the insurgents from harming civilians or blowing something up. He's praying to god that the insurgent doesn't find him first.

The insurgent is in the city and he's praying a lot too. He is praying that the soldier doesn't find him first.

The soldier thinks. \"I wonder how god decides whose prayers he will ignore tonight.\"

Bee

[Xamindar]

"I wonder how god decides whose prayers he will ignore tonight."

Obviously the one doing the wrong thing. Or, maybe dying is a blessing in that sircumstance.

You have a link to the strip?

[Testiculese]

Change the characters.

Billy is 8. He lays dying from Lukemia. He prays every night to get better so his mommy won't cry any more.

Bobby is 14. His mom lays dying from liver cancer. He prays every night that his mom gets better so his daddy will stop crying.

All those involved live good, sincere lives.

I wonder how god decides whose prayers he will ignore tonight.

Obviously the one doing the wrong thing?

Jeff is 32. His back is screwed up from a motorcycle accident. He can barely walk. He prays every night that his back will get better. His doctors are surprised when it does. Billy dies. Bobby's mom dies.

Hmm...

[Xamindar]

Well, or in that case he can help them both. Lol, I don't think he is limited to one wish a night.

[Testiculese]

Well, a god being a god, there is no limit. All three can be answered with a mere 'thought' or wave of the hand, or whatnot.

[Jeff250]

This is the best possible of all worlds. All sorts of extreme pain and misery is allowed in order to provide for some ambiguous greater good like free will.

[Zuruck]

Bee, nice post but will go nowhere. The Zealots will be in soon and throw thousand word count posts at you to confuse you. Good topic, worth a discussion, but not with the likes in here.

Remember, God doesn't like to be tested. So he will never, show his face, appear, disappear, talk, shout, walk, run, or do anything that would prove his existence because you should just believe.

[Kilarin]

The soldier thinks. "I wonder how god decides whose prayers he will ignore tonight."

He doesn't "ignore" either, but He may answer one, or both, with NO.

Parents have to decide between their children all the time. Usually on minor issues, but sometimes on major ones. A GOOD parent sometimes says no, even when the children don't understand that answer. Even when both children think they are right.

All sorts of extreme pain and misery is allowed in order to provide for some ambiguous greater good like free will.

Well, actually, yes.

Does your dad want to protect you from harm? Certainly. But does he let you make many of your own decisions, even if some of them are wrong? Any attempt to protect you so that nothing bad could EVER happen would smother you so that you could never breath free. If your dad loves you, he WILL let you make your own decisions, thats part of love.

God has given man Free Will, and yes, that has resulted in unbelievable evil, pain, horror, and suffering. But the alternative was a world of robots who could not love or care about anything. Just actors playing out a script that was written a long time ago.

Good topic, worth a discussion, but not with the likes in here.

So, are you saying a topic is only worth discussing if everyone you are talking to agrees with you?

[Xamindar]

I wasn't going to bother feeding Zuruck's flames because I think he is pretty much set in his ways but good explaination Kilarin.

Parents have to decide between their children all the time. Usually on minor issues, but sometimes on major ones. A GOOD parent sometimes says no, even when the children don't understand that answer. Even when both children think they are right.

Yeah, God had to do that when he chose between Jesus' plan or Lucifer's plan.

[Top Gun]

Bee, nice post but will go nowhere. The Zealots will be in soon and throw thousand word count posts at you to confuse you. Good topic, worth a discussion, but not with the likes in here.

As alien as the concept may be to you, some topics require more than pithy ten-word statements to fully explain. You know, 'cause we're all adults here, and all. This is one of the most obvious examples of those types of topics. If you don't have the patience to read a measly thousand-word, well-constructed post, maybe you should find a better forum to occupy your time in. I hear that NHB treats "ROFLMAO" as a very acceptable response. Meanwhile, how about letting the rest of us actually have a decent intellectual discussion?

[Bet51987]

Zuruck behave. That was not nice and the rest of you behave too. This is not a test. It was a sad representation of war in a comic strip with two people praying to god for different reasons. In the eyes of the participants each is right and the other is wrong but they pray to the same god for help.

And, as far as the "thousand word post" goes, I have always believed that the length of a post is always inversely proportional to an answer.

It was a sad comic strip.

Bee

Edit...

But the alternative was a world of robots who could not love or care about anything. Just actors playing out a script that was written a long time ago.

Who wrote the script?

[Will Robinson]

Zuruck you sure have an awful lot of problems with something you think doesn't even exist! Someone merely references people praying in a hypothetical situation and you get your panties all in a twist!
You weren't molested as a choirboy or something were you?
Maybe it's puppy love for Lothar, you know, like when the fourth grade boys pull the pretty girls pigtails

[Lothar]

*giggle* I get to be the pretty girl with the pigtails!

[TigerRaptor]

*giggle* I get to be the pretty girl with the pigtails!

That can be easy arranged.

[Kilarin]

Who wrote the script?

If God had created us without free will, then it would have been His script, and we would not actually exist. there would just be figures following through the motions, no actual "People" as we define them. But God chose to give us free will, so our actions are NOT prescripted. We have choice, and are responsible for our own choices.

*giggle* I get to be the pretty girl with the pigtails!

Must... Gouge... Out... Eyes!

[Jeff250]

I'm itching to legitimately respond to this one, but I don't know if I want to do two of these at once.

[Bet51987]

I've kept that comic strip because it powerfully reflects on just what the human brain is allowed to believe. The soldier, for example, is there because he was ordered there and he's been trained to stop the insurgent or kill him. He also knows the insurgent is the enemy of the people who want to live in peace, be free to choose, go to school, and work. The soldier only prays to his god for self protection, an end to the nightmare, and the hopes of seeing his family again. thats all.

The insurgent, however, is fighting for a religion. He fights to change the countrys lifestyle of free choice to a religious one. He kills teachers, policemen, firemen, women, and children. He targets them especially and he prays to his god that the bomb strapped to his waist goes off. He truly believes without any doubt that his god approves this and will enter heaven and sit with his god. So much so, that he will kill himself willingly.

There is a big difference between the two fighters. The soldier could have easily been an atheist, and if so, wouldn't think any differently. The insurgent, however, would not fare so well because he would no longer have a purpose. His fighting would have no meaning.

I posted it because the strip was potent and sad and although I'm atheist and unlike Zuruck I have no problem with theists explaining to me why they believe as long as they don't try shoving it down my throat. I see good people every Sunday.

I found a copy here btw...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/fun/funky ... e=20060514

Bee

[Duper]

The insurgent is in the city and he's praying a lot too. He is praying that the soldier doesn't find him first.

I sincerely doubt that insurgents pray this. Most of the those fighting our troops are from other countries. They came there with the intent of killing us and anyone that sides with us, or gets in the way. They blow themselves up. I really don't think that they are worried about being found by our troops in the field.

And as I said, insurgents really don't care who they kill as long as they scare someone.

[Bet51987]

The insurgent is in the city and he's praying a lot too. He is praying that the soldier doesn't find him first.

I sincerely doubt that insurgents pray this. Most of the those fighting our troops are from other countries. They came there with the intent of killing us and anyone that sides with us, or gets in the way. They blow themselves up. I really don't think that they are worried about being found by our troops in the field.

And as I said, insurgents really don't care who they kill as long as they scare someone.

But the reasons they do this is based on religion. It is their core.

Bee

[Shadowfury333]

Have any of you considered that God may answer both prayers with a 'YES'. I mean, the prayer is just that they aren't taken by surprise and killed, but that doesn't mean that their continued lives are mutually exclusive. They aren't praying to kill the other, they are praying to not be killed.

[Xamindar]

*giggle* I get to be the pretty girl with the pigtails!

LoL, man Lothar, your posts lately have been cracking me up! Right on!

[Kilarin]

But the reasons they do this is based on religion. It is their core.

yes, people who believe in something are DANGEROUS. Apathetic people are safer, but also quite useless.

Do note that the belief does NOT have to be religious in nature. The atrocities in Atheist Russia and China confirm that. Belief is dangerous, but without it, we don't acomplish anything.

[Palzon]

This is the best possible of all worlds. All sorts of extreme pain and misery is allowed in order to provide for some ambiguous greater good like free will.

well said, Dr. Pangloss.

Also, I've always been struck by the fact that the whole concept of grace is rendered paradoxical and meaningless by the notion of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present god. Though human actions would not have to be scripted per se, god would have a priori knowledge of all prayer. therefore, god could not be moved by prayer. god would then be incapable experiencing the prayer as novel gesture on man's part. it's old hat to him. and he already knows who will be saved and who will not.

If god is all-powerful, etc, it kind of makes a mockery of the whole freewill thing.

[Bess]

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
Who is to say who is right or wrong? In both man's eyes they are both right, but herein lies the problem.
To enforce your will upon any other person is a dictatorship and that is wrong in our democratic society. Yet, God gave us a free will to choose as we see fit to choose; but that still does not give us the right to dictate.

[Palzon]

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
Who is to say who is right or wrong? In both man's eyes they are both right, but herein lies the problem.
To enforce your will upon any other person is a dictatorship and that is wrong in our democratic society. Yet, God gave us a free will to choose as we see fit to choose; but that still does not give us the right to dictate.

Rights are abrogated by law in every conceivable realm of our democratic society. But that does not make this a dictatorship. There are laws against murder, theft, and exceeding the speed limit. These laws restrict my "freedom". Enforcement of these laws does not require a dictator. In theory, the laws embody the will of the people. In best practice, a law will at least serve the general good even if the people don't support it. but we're not a dictatorship even if a particular law fails to serve the general good. bad laws can be repealed/ammended. bad lawmakers can be voted out of office.

I see the point you're trying to make. I just think you're painting with too broad a brush. Still, on a personal level, some people deserve to be smacked down for doing what they're doing, even though it may be an expression of their freedom to choose. that's not dictatorial - that's just keepin' it real

[Dakatsu]

Those stories are why I am an athiest, and how I don't hate religious people, I just feel sorry for them.

Especially the soldiers fighting. They believe so much in their god, and believe that their god can help them. The other side believes in a god too, and believes that their god will help them. I find it sad that they both may die because it is a false hope.

My girlfriend prayed for her grandmother to not die. She had cancer and was going to die soon. The sad thing is, she died the next day, after her prayer she gave while crying. I feel sorry for both of them. Her grandmother for trusting in god to save her, and my girlfriend, for believing that it would help. My girlfriend is barely religious anymore, since of how many times she has prayed, and how bad things just happen. Yet it is sad she still partially believes that her god may help her.

*giggle* I get to be the pretty girl with the pigtails!

Pretty girls don't wear pigtails!!!

[Zuruck]

The insurgent is in the city and he's praying a lot too. He is praying that the soldier doesn't find him first.

I sincerely doubt that insurgents pray this. Most of the those fighting our troops are from other countries. They came there with the intent of killing us and anyone that sides with us, or gets in the way. They blow themselves up. I really don't think that they are worried about being found by our troops in the field.

And as I said, insurgents really don't care who they kill as long as they scare someone.

Duper, insurgents view us the same way we view them, as the enemy. They pray to their God to kill us the same way you pray for more of them to die every night. We believe what we're doing is right and that our God is on our side, they believe the exact opposite.

Dakatsu, you're girlfriend is figuring out the answer, finally. Praying will not help anybody, if cancer wants to kill, it will kill. God does not control it, or anything for that matter. The sooner people learn that, the better, the clouds will lift and see that this world is only what we make it, and that it shouldn't be left to people basing their entire lives on an ideal.

[Jeff250]

It's clear to me how \"free will\" might justify God allowing a murder. It's not clear to me how free will might justify God allowing somebody to die from cancer.

[Stryker]

Personally, I find it trite that people pray for something physical and expect to be answered in proportion with the sincerity of their prayer.

If God is a simple dispenser of blessings, such as miraculous healings or protection from an enemy, he bust be a downright sadistic God. However, this is NOT what God's purpose is.

God as an entity set the world in motion and created it in his perfection. He also gave his creatures free will--and that included the ability to do evil things. When evil things were done by his first people, the world decreased from God's perfection. Since it was no longer perfect, it no longer held protection from pain, suffering, and death to its inhabitants.

God has allowed us a way out of eternal death, but it is a futile gesture to ask him to save us from something that was put into place through our own stubbornness and free will.

Not only this, but you must consider from where your idea of \"right\" and \"wrong\" came. Obviously you think it \"wrong\" that God would let someone die whom he had the power to heal--and yet what from what point of view is it wrong? To which law or standard are you referring when you say that God's actions are wrong?

Who is to say whether \"wrong\" is even bad outside of an absolute law by which things are to be judged? And if this law holds such importance as to be held over all humanity to judge whether something is \"right\" or \"wrong\", who or what must have instituted this law? Obviously something much greater than a human.

[Jeff250]

The argument is that the existence of an all-powerful, all-intelligent, and all-good God is inconsistent with the existence of evil or to the extent of it in the world. Not that what God does is ethically wrong. Only that the aforementioned conception of God is inconsistent with facts of the matter and does not exist.

Besides, I think that it is presumptuous to think that atheists derive their sense of right and wrong from God. Not that it even matters in this context.

[Stryker]

The argument is that the existence of an all-powerful, all-intelligent, and all-good God is inconsistent with the existence of evil or to the extent of it in the world. Not that what God does is ethically wrong. Only that the aforementioned conception of God is inconsistent with facts of the matter and does not exist.

I'm already a step or two ahead of you. My point in the body of my post is that God is NOT responsible for evil, and cannot be held to be responsible for evil any more than a pair of perfect, loving parents can be held responsible when their child goes on a shooting rampage.

If it is presumptuous to think that atheists derive their sense of right and wrong from God, would an atheist deign to pose to me exactly where they DO acquire their sense of right and wrong?

[Jeff250]

I think I understand your argument now. Essentially: If God is all-good, then everything that God does is, by definition, all-good, and therefore not even suspect to question? Before I comment on it, I'd like confirmation that I understand it correctly.

If it is presumptuous to think that atheists derive their sense of right and wrong from God, would an atheist deign to pose to me exactly where they DO acquire their sense of right and wrong?

The question concerning the source of true ethical values is broad. It is the principal question of the study of metaethics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-ethics
However, a person may not believe that true ethical values exist and take up the position of ethical skepticism (or ethical nihilism):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_skepticism
The metaethical view that ethical values come from what God commands is known as the divine command theory (or theological voluntarism):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_command_theory

However, while metaethics concerns where true ethical values come from (if anywhere), the question concerning where people, in practice, learn their ethical beliefs (whether they are true or false or even apt for truth or falsity) is a study of anthropology and other soft sciences. I'm not familiar with the subject, but I'd speculate that family, society, psychology, and religion all contribute in forming what ethical beliefs that we, in practice, take up.

[Bet51987]

I derive my right and wrong from what I see in the world. The soldier, for example, is trying to keep the peace... thats a right. The terrorist is trying to get the bomb wrapped around his waist to a supermarket or an Israeli schoolbus, so he can kill as many civilians as he can.... thats a wrong. There is a big difference between culture/beliefs/customs, and just plain evil. I don't need a god to determine it.

\"free will\" to me is just an easy explanation the church uses to explain away... well, just about everything. Its the top of my list of things not to believe. My priest never uses it. He just says \"I don't know why this or that happened but its not part of gods plan\". Him I respect.

Bee

[Kilarin]

"free will" to me is just an easy explanation the church uses to explain away... well, just about everything. Its the top of my list of things not to believe. My priest never uses it. He just says "I don't know why this or that happened but its not part of gods plan". Him I respect.

Both are true.
According to Christian theory, we are in enemy occupied territory. It was NOT part of God's plan that this world rebelled. It WAS part of God's plan that we be given the choice.

Does your father want you to learn to make your own decisions? Even if you make some of the wrong ones? Will he leave you FREE to make those decisions?

Love that compels is not love.