Loose Change 911

[Topher]

In the video, it showed technology to fake voices using just a few samples of someones voice.

No, they said there was such technology. You'd have to show me a working demo that can replicate things like fear and crying without sounding like Stephen Hawking.

3: We KNOW that Osama Bin Laden has admitted he was behind the 911 attacks.

Actually it is very possibe that the video was faked. The video had very poor picture, his voice was different, and he was wearing things forbidden in islam. He is also left handed, but the video showed him right-handed.

Well, that could be said about any of his videos, I don't see the leaders of jihad jumping on the HDTV bandwagon anytime soon.

His voice is different? So we can fake cell phone calls from loved ones in stress in real time as events are happening and fool all of their families, but we can't do it for Osama bin Laden to the point that an amateur video analyst (aka people watching it on Google video) can say that his voice is different?

Is he right or left handed? Was he wearing things forbidden to Islam? Because someone acts different on video, does that mean they're not that person depicted? It's possible, but I think you need more compelling proof than things that are open to interpretation. Things that are forbidden or things that make you left or right handed aren't consistent, you can't show me indisputable proof because someone is writing with their left hand that they're always left handed. Or that what's forbidden by a religion is consistent everywhere (homosexuality is bad! homosexuality is good!, etc).

I'll give you a tip, show everything that's right about the video instead of everything that could be wrong.

[Lobber]

You can't win by trying to discredit me with personal attacks Topher, so give it up. The purpose of the thread was to present another point of view of the terrorist attacks on 9/11. Mission accomplished.

[Ferno]

Actually it is very possibe that the video was faked. The video had very poor picture, his voice was different, and he was wearing things forbidden in islam. He is also left handed, but the video showed him right-handed.

Also, there's the possibility that since none of us speak arabic, it could have been a false transaltion.

[CUDA]

Topher, theres an old saying, never argue with a fool you will just lower yourself to his level and he will beat you with experience

[Jeff250]

Obviously, this video was created by the government to intentionally provide terrible evidence for 9-11 conspiracy theories, which, of course, only further entrenches everyone's idea that that 9-11 was orchestrated by Osama bin Laden. Lobber, then, is also a government collaborator who is purposefully providing vacuous defenses for the video so that readers will be only further lulled into the false sense of security that 9-11 was not orchestrated by Bush.

[Mobius]

Lobber - I can tell you WANT to be a critical thinker, but you don't seem to have the background for it as yet. You will develop this with time. One hopes!

The most important thing to remember abvout conspiracy theories is that it is impossible to keep them hidden. \"Two People can keep a secret - but only if one of them is dead.\"

This is the way you must look at these kinds of ramblings. Occam's Razor ALWAYS applies - there are no exceptions. Usinj JUST Occam (and nothing else) proves you put 12 people on the Moon starting on July 12th 1969, and that a plane did indeed hit the pentagon.

I thoroughly suggest the next thing you read be the book \"Why people believe weird things\" by Michael Schermer, the founder of the Skeptics Society in the USA. He is also a monthly contributor to Scientific American (www.sciam.com) and his monthly features are available free of charge. Suggest you read these too.

Enjoy.

[Dedman]

Guys, you can't argue (debate) with Lobber and hope to win or change his mind. He is a JW. ALL of the JW's I have known are so steadfast in thier beliefs that you couldn't prove to them the sun will come up tomorrow even after it happens. They have no room for any critical thought.

Oh and Lobber, please stop calling it a Jumb Jet. A B757 is not a jumbo jet. It is classified as a narrow body.

Furthermore, so I don't have to repeat it. The following is from: viewtopic.php?t=9378&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Keep in mind that Osama bin Laden IS a structural engineer and knows about shear, buckling, and the other forces that a buildings structure has to withstand. People seem to forget that this was not a rag tag band of ignorant peasants that pulled this off. They were very intelligent, motivated people with plenty of time to plane and rehearse.

Try to remember that a lot of the conspiracy theorists \"evidence\" comes from eye witnesses. Any law enforcement officer will tell you how poor eye witness information tends to be. That is even more apparent when you are talking about things of a technical nature.

Some people reported hearing what sounded like a missile flying overhead right before the plane hit the Pentagon. Do those people know what a missile sounds like compared to a commercial airliner flying in cruise configuration and speed? Most people know so little about aircraft that they still believe that explosive decompression will occur if a bullet goes through the side of the fuselage at altitude. I can assure you that it doesn't.

I have heard that the plane crash that happened in that field couldn't have happened because of how little wreckage there was. A lot of people are convinced that is should have looked like the crashes they have seen on the nightly news. Well guess what? Most of those other crashes happened at significantly lower speeds than the one in Penn did. The vast majority of plane crashed happen either at take-off or landing (both roughly 150 mph for a commercial aircraft like a B757 or B767). The plane that crashed in Penn was probably traveling in excess of 500 mph when it hit. I have seen wreckage of a commercial plane that crashed at a high speed into the ground. There wasn't much left to identify it as a plane unless you were right there on the scene and knew what you were looking at. I suspect much the same happened in Penn.

The same thing would apply to the lack of initial damage to the Pentagon. The building would not have had to have been the plane’s first point of contact for there to be that much damage. If the plane hit the ground just in front of the building or the point where the building meets the ground there wouldn’t necessarily be a fuselage shaped hole in the building. The majority of the plane’s structure is aluminum. By comparison to the masonry of the building it is soft, light, and doesn’t have much density. In other words, it will dissipate energy quite quickly. The high strength steel of the landing gear or engines is a different matter all together. For you physics cats out there, how much energy and momentum does a 2000 pound engine (the core of which is high strength steel) with a diameter of roughly 6 feet have when traveling at 500 mpg? Is it enough to punch through a few levels of the Pentagon?

Is this the way it happened? I don’t know. I am merely trying to put some rational thought behind some of the events. Things almost never happen in real life like they do in Hollywood. Most people don’t have an understanding of technology, physics, and the interaction between them. So for most people hearing a loud whooshing sound just before the Pentagon was hit means that it must have been a missile of something else. After all, anyone who has flown knows that an airliner at cruise makes that nice steady rumbling sound of the engines and wind. They are also convinced that if someone were to shoot a hole in the plane, they would be sucked out.

[Xamindar]

Yeah Dedman, you just said what I was about to say. Lobber is a JW, you can't offer him anything that will change his mind no matter how obvious it is.

[Zuruck]

Whilst quite a stretch, how many of you people actually looked into these theories? I'm not saying I believe it all, but it asks quite the question and maybe there was something. Don't be so quick to jump out and say you know, because NONE of us know for certain. Would not be the first time the govt did something against its own laws...

[CUDA]

Whilst quite a stretch, how many of you people actually looked into these theories? I'm not saying I believe it all, but it asks quite the question and maybe there was something. Don't be so quick to jump out and say you know, because NONE of us know for certain. Would not be the first time the govt did something against its own laws...

ya nothing like killing 3000+ people and causing Trillions of dollars in financial damage to a country do get your approval ratings up

[Topher]

Whilst quite a stretch, how many of you people actually looked into these theories? I'm not saying I believe it all, but it asks quite the question and maybe there was something. Don't be so quick to jump out and say you know, because NONE of us know for certain. Would not be the first time the govt did something against its own laws...

You haven't managed to actually say anything. How can we look into a theory if all someone is going to do is say "We can't ever know for certain"? You could use that against any argument.

There's gravity on Jupiter!
We can't know for certain, therefore aliens are still a possibility.

The government is responsible for 9/11!
We can't know for certain, it's probably just terrorists.

Terrorists are responsible for 9/11!
We can't know for certain, stop making personal insults.

Give me a break, tell me why something is for certain instead of pointing out everything that's not and claiming that as a certain theory.

[Zuruck]

Hah, you guys are morons. The second sentence in my post was that I didn't believe all the conspiracy theories, yet I was merely saying that you should ask questions instead of trusting a govt that has a history of lies, murder and deceit. That's all, don't be so quick to react out against those that ask questions.

Oh and btw, we do know there is gravity on Jupiter. It's been observed by spacecraft AND computation.

[Top Gun]

'Nuff said.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who actually buys into these \"theories\" is either completely self-delusional or a total idiot. Tens of millions of people saw the second plane hit the WTC on live TV feed. There is even clear video of the first plane hitting the towers. There are dozens of pictures of clearly-identified aircraft wreckage on the lawn of the Pentagon, including many by independent journalists. Hundreds of family members received hundreds of cell phone calls from people on the planes or in the WTC. There are mountains of indisputable scientific and physical data supporting what we all know happened. And yet people still buy into this ****? People honestly think that the government would make thousands of innocents \"disappear\" and completely erase the existence of four commercial jetliners, just to fulfill some self-promoting motive? If this is honestly the way humanity is heading, we're all boned.

(And no, I didn't watch the video. I'm not going to waste an hour of my time hearing the same old bull**** \"arguments\" played out yet again.)

[Dedman]

Forgetting the actual “facts” and other evidence of this case for a moment, consider this. Our Government, as most big bureaucratic organizations are, is fairly inefficient and incompetent in a lot of ways. Do you really think that it could design, implement, and maintain such an elaborate lie? Our government couldn’t even get drinking water to Katrina victims for nearly a week.

[Topher]

Forgetting the actual “facts” and other evidence of this case for a moment, consider this. Our Government, as most big bureaucratic organizations are, is fairly inefficient and incompetent in a lot of ways. Do you really think that it could design, implement, and maintain such an elaborate lie? Our government couldn’t even get drinking water to Katrina victims for nearly a week.

It was too busy causing the hurricane! Idiots...

[Dedman]

You're right. I don't know what I was thinkin

[Xamindar]

LoL. You know, I think he gave up guys.

[Kilarin]

Do you really think that it could design, implement, and maintain such an elaborate lie?

Exactly. You KNOW Bush didn't want his NSA phone tapping info coming out, but too many people knew the secret and someone finally leaked it. Was it a guilty conscience, politica agenda, accident, or just a shortfall of cash? who knows.

The point is that this was the NSA, No Such Agency. I'm offended by the wiretapping, but come on, it's not even in the same ballpark of evil as deliberatly faking a terrorist attack and killing thousands of people. If the NSA can't keep a secret about something as comparatively minor as a questionable wiretapping program, how on EARTH do you think the government could keep the wraps on a project that required the coordination of hundreds of agents who were given the task of murdering thousands of our own citizens.

Bush's own generals have retired and come out complaining about how the Iraqi invasion was run. Which branch of the military do you think is loyal enough to murder our own people without any guilt?

I don't like Bush. But he just does NOT have the ability to pull off something like this and keep it secret.

[Testiculese]

It would require the cooperation and coordination of a LOT of government agents with no morals whatsoever

I.R.S.

There are several thousand right there! They've kept the fact of illegal income tax hidden for over 40 years so far.

[Dedman]

They've kept the fact of illegal income tax hidden for over 40 years so far.

If you know about it, it isn't hidden.

[Skyalmian]

[Dedman]

Chris rock said it best. You don’t PAY taxes. They TAKE taxes. When you get your check, the money is already gone. That’s not a payment, that’s a JACK!

[Kilarin]

I.R.S.

Ok, you got me there.

[Zuruck]

You know it's weird...go on a mountaintop in rural Colorado and you wont' get any cell phone reception at 12,000 ft...yet at 40,000 ft...everyone had crystal clear cell phone calls. I don't know....kinda strikes me the wrong way as even in Chicago sometimes the connection is choppy.

[Testiculese]

Cell transmission is FOV-based. Straight up, there're no obstacles.

[Topher]

You know it's weird...go on a mountaintop in rural Colorado and you wont' get any cell phone reception at 12,000 ft...yet at 40,000 ft...everyone had crystal clear cell phone calls. I don't know....kinda strikes me the wrong way as even in Chicago sometimes the connection is choppy.

There are phones on an airplane.

[Dedman]

Plus, I imagine that the eastern sea board has a lot more cell towers than some remote mountain top in Colorado.

[Topher]

Plus 12,000 isn't really a mountain in Colorado, 14-ers all the way.

[Diedel]

Say what you want, the clip points out a lot of contradictions in what's officially being told about 9/11.

I found the part about the engineering of the twin towers and the probability a fire could make them collapse very interesting.

And why did building #7 collapse w/o severely damaging the surroundings?

The Pentagon video footage isn't that bad that you couldn't see well enough that the hole in the building nowhere has the dimensions a huge airplane would cause. You also can't deny the facts about the debris that was to be expected after such a crash.

The sad thing is that too many Americans agree with the Bush administration's plans for aggression and world domination. You fail to notice that presenting an external enemy was at all times the means of the rulers to detract ppl from the domestic misery.

Your administration is ruining your country's finances, whacking around the poor - and you excuse it all with that everybody is responsible for himself.

Hey, I can hear Cain speaking here, denying that he is his brother's keeper.

Go America, kill some more, steal some more. You are the 600 pound Gorilla in the cage, taking whatever he wants. Well, if the ethics of a Gorilla are sufficient for you ... The christians among you should be aware that you are begging for God's judgement this way, like it or not.

Yo, and in case you want to remind me of Germany's past: Germany had received judgement, and it had deserved it.

I know I will probably get flamed for this again by those of you who cannot stand any kind of criticism (because it would hurt if they'd listen like only the truth can hurt), but oh well.

[Dedman]

The sad thing is that too many Americans agree with the Bush administration's plans for aggression and world domination. You fail to notice that presenting an external enemy was at all times the means of the rulers to detract ppl from the domestic misery.

Your administration is ruining your country's finances, whacking around the poor - and you excuse it all with that everybody is responsible for himself.

I tend to agree with you on these two points.

[SuperSheep]

Diedel,

Could you please provide specific instances where America has swung it's 600lb Gorilla weight around?

I hardly see comparing what the Germans did in WW2 even remotely comparable to America now. Does the holocaust really compare to anything we've done, including Iraq? Although perhaps with your line of reasoning about America, you think that the Jews may have done something to deserve that as well?

Having thousands of innocent people killed on 9/11 is not some kind of karmic retribution or an act of God. It was an atrocity that anyone should be ashamed that the human race is even capable of that kind of thing.

Begging for God's judgement? Perhaps if you look at the death tolls, you'll see that few people died at the Pentagon as that section was being renovated where as a majority of the people that died were innocent people on the planes and WTC's. The whole God's judgement is a crock anyway. This is the same belief the hijackers, Germany, and countless civilisations have used to justify their actions throughout history.

God has nothing to do with the acts of men! God gave men free will and his judgement comes when men die.

[Diedel]

I did by no means intend to compare the U.S. to Nazi Germany. I only wanted to prevent ppl jumping on me because of Nazi Germany.

I am also not begging for God's judgment on the U.S. Imo the U.S. does that themselves. I also definitely did not say 9/11 was God's judgement over the U.S. I said that the U.S. is begging for it with their actions, imo. I wouldn't need to put it that way if I thought that judgement had already come.

The U.S. actions in Iraq are a prime example of the 600 pound Gorilla behaviour. Halliburton anybody? Saddam was only an excuse, as were the WMDs.

Do you want me to name all the tyrants that were helped to power by the U.S. with the only purpose to give the U.S. economy what they wanted?

Nicaragua? Chile? Iran?

Unfortunately I find only very few military engagements of the U.S. after WW2 that do not seem to have a hidden economic and political agenda.

What about the Bush administration having ruined the U.S. finances? How about the shameful treatment of veteran soldiers, cutting pensions and medical care for those who gave their health for their country, as they were made to believe?

I just cannot understand that despite it is so very obvious that the Bush administration has constantly been lying to the American people, so many of them still applaud them.

For me 9/11 was a welcome opportunity for the powers behind Bush to realize their twofold strategy of furthering the American political influence in the world by military means and pre-emptive wars (which btw. have been invented by Nazi Germany, and are against international law - which the U.S. give a flying f* about, obviously), and to intimidate and control the American people by putting them in a sense of constant fear and threat, allowing them to implement laws that clearly are against your constitution and impairs civil freedom.

[Zuruck]

Thanks Topher, I grew up in Colorado, I know how tall the mountains are. Airphones work through the transmission of the airplanes, hence, no interference. Cell phones really don't work at altitude, besides, how many cell phones are there in rural Penn?? I'm not saying 9/11 was caused by the govt, I'm saying as an American you HAVE TO ASK QUESTIONS!!

Diedel is right, there is nothing this govt does anymore without ulterior motives. His post was dead-on correct and saddening.

[Diedel]

Who said this:

\"Those who are sacrificing a little freedom for a little security, deserve neither and will lose both.\"

?

(Hint: It was one of the great sons of your nation.)

[Dedman]

I believe it was Franklin, and I agree with him.

[Diedel]

Yes, indeed, it was Benjamin Franklin.

[Dedman]

Yeah, I'm more scared of my Government than I am of terrorists.

[Kilarin]

Say what you want, the clip points out a lot of contradictions in what's officially being told about 9/11.

But lets make an important distinction here.

I think the US has done a LOT of stupid things. We BUILT many of the dictatorships in the middle east that later caused us so many problems. The current administration has done everything BACKWARDS from where I think it should have gone.

BUT, there is a BIG difference in convincing US soldiers and operatives to attack foreigners, and convincing them to blow up our own buildings full of innocent US citizens.

Just listen to people talk in the US, its EASY to find people who believe we should simply nuke every middle eastern country and then shoot the arabs when they glow in the dark. So if Bush wants to find excuses to invade a middle eastern country, no, I don't think he'd have any problems finding agents and soldiers who would cooperate, with little or no conscience about how many Muslims died in the process. Please note, I am NOT saying he DID that, or that he didn't, just that, from a resource perspective, he could have gotten people to do it.

BUT, deliberately blowing up the twin towers is a whole nuther ball of wax. And that is what the conspiracy theorists are implying Bush did. That he faked the entire terrorist attack just to get himself more power. This requires that Bush be able to gather enough resources to make this entire scheme work. He has to have agents who will gather and murder everyone on the flights, women and children included. He has to have agents in the flight control systems who won't balk at the bloodshed they are causing. He has to have agents who will plant the explosives to destroy buildings full of people without blinking an eye thinking about the body count of Policemen and Firemen who were inside, let alone the regular citizens. He has to have agents who don't mind blowing up fellow government workers when they fake the attack on the Pentagon. And he has to have agents to orchestrate this entire complicated attack and cover-up. And not ONE of those ice hearted agents can turn around and change their minds before, during, or after, or the entire house of cards comes crumbling down.

I DON'T LIKE GEORGE BUSH. But this scenario is just not reasonable. He's bad enough all on his own without us having to make up nonsense about him. Especially when, even had he WANTED to do something so horrible, he could have just cracked open one cannister of nerve gas. Then he only needs one or two agents, and the evidence points right back at Iraq, which is where he presumably WANTED it to point. And he could have arranged to be doing something noble when the attack happened instead of being in the middle of a publicity visit at a school.

When those of us on the anti-bush side push this kind of nonsense, we lose all credibility. Try to point out that Bush had pushed the torture line much further than it should ever have gone, and you will hear back, "yeah, yeah, and he faked 911, right? Pull the other leg now!" We don't help our cause with this, we just make ourselves look unreliable and ridiculous.

I'm more scared of my Government than I am of terrorists.

On this point, we are in complete agreement.

[Diedel]

I think G.Bush is just a willful marionet. I mean, just look at him.

I wish the American people that they manage to get their country back from the hands of those abusing it.

[Testiculese]

I wonder how many people actually think Bush is running...anything?

Diedel, it's not just the gov., and not even half. Corporate America has done far more damage than the governmenet, both inside and outside our borders.