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Immortal Lobster · Post by **Immortal Lobster** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:33 pm

Turn Aeroglass of and the reqs are about the same as XP

I cant attest to your problem tho, D3 graphically works fine in vista, its the lack of creative sound drivers and lack for legacy joysticks that drove me to madness, so I just play D3 on my other PC

d3jake · Post by **d3jake** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:44 pm

Do you suppose we could have anopther Vista conversation in this thread, or should we split it off? I have some questions\\opinions that I would like reaction\\awnsers to.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:01 pm

Ask away, if it gets too far off of the topic, I can just split the thread when the time comes.

d3jake · Post by **d3jake** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:38 pm

Alright!
My opinion is this: Vista isn't going to go ever as well as MS hopes, it'll be a short while before Vista take off as well as XP did.

What are the main adavantages? rom what I've heard it sucks down system resources like nobodies business, it takes up close to 10GB of HDD space.
Why does D3 not like to run on it? Is MS trying to phase older programs out my making the newest most popular OS not support them? Are we going to have to find an emulator\\hack\\whatever to get D3 running on OSs after this one?

That's all I can think of for now...

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:38 pm

Vindicator · Post by **Vindicator** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:40 pm

Its a beta... nuff said.

d3jake · Post by **d3jake** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:43 pm

LOL! I did make a post, but I think we posted within the same 5 seconds!

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:43 pm

Immortal Lobster · Post by **Immortal Lobster** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:07 pm

Ive been running Vista since its release, so its been what...1 months now? Outside of nVidias crappy drivers, I took a large performance hit with em, ATi Users arent as badly affected, and Creatives complete lack of driver support, Vistas been quite a charm to use. (It should be noted im not necassarily a pro-microsoft or anti-microsoft user, Ive used many OSes in the past)

Anyway, It was frustrating getting used to the new layout, but now I find XP hard to use, becuase the flow in Vista seems better off.

Lack of drivers at this stage are not M$s fault, remember, beta

As to your firefox issue...seems quite fast on my PC, still much faster then IE7...dont know why yours is acting slow.

as to ongoing problems with vista...understandable, but Vista is far more stable then XP was, I ws even able to drop the voltage in my CPU a .25volt, still stable (nuff said

)

It should also be noted, the beta is slower then the real thing, as Beta2 is running debug mode, so everything is taking a few steps longer then normal. So i anticipate Vista to sell very well, many people at other forums I frequent, includiung myself are already awaiting its release. I consider it a solid OS, even in Beta, all it needs is more drivers from the other manufacturers, then its all set to go.

d3jake · Post by **d3jake** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:18 pm

Oh... that makes sense, it's Beta for a reason... THough I still think it won't take off due to teh rather large system requirements... THen again I might be biased becuase I still play D3 on a 500 MHz box, and own a Pentium II...

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:00 am

having spent an inordinate amount of time installing betas(nforce raid, what a ★■◆●), beta2 lasted less than a day on my machine.

im waiting for RC2, and hopefully more drivers(like ones that work from creative).

the stability situation should be reviewed when more drivers become availible.

Immortal Lobster · Post by **Immortal Lobster** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:03 am

heh, yeah, nVidias Driver support for Vista is lacking, ironically, it was that same lacking of drivers that killed ATi's Rep when XP went Beta.

As soon as Creative and nVidia get their asses in gear, Ill be golden. until then, Ill just use crippled sound and video, even though crippled, my machine can still hang with the best of em =)

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:43 pm

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:52 pm

All I know is that Vista's requirements are above my current hardware's capabilities, so unless I get a new system between now and then, I'm not going to be upgrading any time soon.

Admiral LSD · Post by **Admiral LSD** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:28 am

Spooky wrote:I have tried this trick with the installation disk that came with my Nvidia GeForce FX 5200 card and lo and behold Vista loaded the driver, complete with 3D.

I'm surprised that worked actually. What it found was most likely the XP driver and while XP drivers appear to work for most things (I was able to use XP drivers for both my nForce 2 APU and Connexant Winmodem) Vista users a newer driver model for video drivers, the LDDM (for Longhorn Display Driver Model). Presumably, this is part of the Aero Glass and WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) business. It also (I believe) enables the neat trick of not requiring a reboot to install/upgrade graphics. Perhaps there's some kind of backwards compatibility framework in there to provide some wiggle-room for manufacturers not yet releasing LDDM driver yet...

edit: The most basic requirement for a video card to run Vista is DirectX 9 support. This is why you're starting to see a large number of laptops with only the basic Intel 945GM graphics sporting "Vista capable" stickers.

Immortal Lobster · Post by **Immortal Lobster** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:24 am

the directx9 requirement is for Aeroglass, not Vista, so many people get the two mixed up. while Aeroglass is nice, its not a required portion of the OS

and many people forget that in the case of vista, its not just the OS thats new. Microsoft has also set up a driver requirement, Ive fogoten the name of it, but there are now written requirements for drivers, the expectations that are supposed to be met, etc etc....all I have to say about that one is, its about ★■◆●ing time!

Admiral LSD · Post by **Admiral LSD** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:25 am

Immortal Lobster wrote:and many people forget that in the case of vista, its not just the OS thats new. Microsoft has also set up a driver requirement, Ive fogoten the name of it, but there are now written requirements for drivers, the expectations that are supposed to be met, etc etc....all I have to say about that one is, its about **** time!

How is that different from the current WHQL signing system (which never really meant a damn thing)?

Immortal Lobster · Post by **Immortal Lobster** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:28 am

Ill-reread the literature after I get out of class, but its actually really in depth, and its only applicable for Vista Premium or greater, kind of offered as a service.

Basically how it works, there are two types ofDevices now, and Device Drivers, basic and premium. Basic provides basic funtionality, whereas premium will be the cream of the crop. the premium drivers are supposed to be uploaded by the manufacturer to windows update, so that when the system updates, you also get the latest drivers. there are also requirements on those drivers, certain functions they have to perform, if a bad driver is uploaded, the manufacturer of that driver is red flagged, and have a certain ammount of time before they can repair it, otherwise, to my understanding, theres a penalty involved, the hardware is no longer deemed ok by the logo program, so OEMs cant advertise the PC as Vista capable, etc etc. other technical jargon can be found amoungst these pages

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winlogo/VistaLogoFAQ.mspx

More on the Driver Qualiy Rating here
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060614-7054.html

The DQR system relies on scores to indicate a driver's quality level, and it derives those scores from user-submitted crash reports. Microsoft's Online Crash Analysis Team will analyze crash reports to determine the ratio of crashing systems to non-crashing systems. Drivers that rarely cause crashes will be rated \"Green,\" while moderately problematic drivers will be rated \"Yellow.\" The horrid stuff gets a big, fat \"Red\" rating.

The consequences of failure, while not dire, are considerable. Only drivers with a \"Green\" status can be used in computers that are Windows-logo certified, meaning that OEMs will have to be careful in choosing which hardware to include in their offerings. Furthermore, because \"Green\" hardware can be re-rated as \"Yellow\" or \"Red\" in the event that problems arise, OEMs and device manufacturers will need to look after systems even after they have shipped.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:42 pm

MS really wants to give away vista to OEMs, cause I can't see how, with DQR, and the added cost of extra support, they'd want to pay for it.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:06 pm

I don't understand how helpful that this DQR system can be. Is there really a significant group of people out there who are informed enough to look out for \"Microsoft Windows Vista Logo Certification\" (or whatever) before buying a PC but not informed enough to look at the hardware specs for themselves? I'd wager that 99% of people either fall on one side of the line or the other, most people being in the clueless category of course. Let's face it--if you're making a 30 second Dell commercial, Now has Microsoft Windows Vista Logo Certification isn't exactly an effective soundbite.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:19 pm

See that case badge on OEM machines? You don't get one of those (nor the right to advertise your machine as Vista-compatible) if you don't qualify for the logo program.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:05 pm

Yes, the case badge, the ultimate selling point of any PC. I think that whether or not the machine comes with Vista pre-installed will dwarf \"Vista-Capable\" badging by comparison, unless they're going to go as far as not let manufacturers install it.

Immortal Lobster · Post by **Immortal Lobster** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:16 pm

I believe thats the point

to clarify, this doesnt put the pressure on the OEMs, it puts it on the suppliers of their parts, nVidia, ATi, Intel, AMD, Creative etc etc. becuase an OEm is not gonna have each individual PC certified, its going to certify an entire series. so If the certification becomes void due to a part, its not the OEM thats going to change anything, other then perhaps its supplier. see how that works yet =)

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:36 pm

Immortal Lobster wrote:I believe thats the point

to clarify, this doesnt put the pressure on the OEMs, it puts it on the suppliers of their parts, nVidia, ATi, Intel, AMD, Creative etc etc. becuase an OEm is not gonna have each individual PC certified, its going to certify an entire series. so If the certification becomes void due to a part, its not the OEM thats going to change anything, other then perhaps its supplier. see how that works yet =)

No, this just increases cost on OEMs. OEM aren't going to change suppliers based on DQR - DQR doesn't rate hardware, it rates their drivers, and nearly all major OEMs supply their own branded drivers.

If Dell has a series of bad drivers for their printers, they have to fix it - not whoever is making their printers.

I also don't think MS would supply nvidia refernce drivers for dell machines if DQR is going to mean anything.

Immortal Lobster · Post by **Immortal Lobster** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:52 pm

Your not looking far enough down that road. using the printer idea, sure dell names the printer, and supplies the drivers, but who made the drivers? most likely the company that built the physical hardware. so if Dell gets yellow, or red flagged, the pressure is on them to put the pressure on the actual supplier. its a simple flow of pressure.

Dell may 'supply' ATi Drivers, but it didnt make them. so if its line is in jeapordy becuase ATi made a bad driver, then Dell is gonna push their muscle around, and threaten to discontinue use of ATi, or what have you. Dell has to fix it yes, but their actual work involved isnt much, its all a matter of a few business transactions.

that little sticker, as small and cheap as it is, has great power, god knows why, but it does.

in a financial sense, the cost would only increase on the physical supplier to the OEM, if they fubared a driver, then they have to make up for it. since a driver must be in use and in evaluation for 120days prior to a rating, it forces the supplier of that driver to actually make sure it works, and hopefully fix it sooner.

Creative had 2 years between driver revisions, thats two years without fixing a damned thing. Hopefully a program like this will apply some pressure on their lazy asses in the future.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:14 pm

You are assuming that there isn't a OEM QA process for their drivers.

Bad DELL drivers means that something got past DELL's QA. A lot of suppliers go out of their way not to support parts that come from OEM's for that reason.

You are also making the assumption that there isn't distinct differences between hardware supplied to OEMs and that supplied to retail channels.

Immortal Lobster · Post by **Immortal Lobster** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:22 pm

fliptw wrote:You are assuming that there isn't a OEM QA process for their drivers.

Bad DELL drivers means that something got past DELL's QA. A lot of suppliers go out of their way not to support parts that come from OEM's for that reason.

thats why a lot of OEMs use drivers that are 3 or more revisions old.

fliptw wrote: You are also making the assumption that there isn't distinct differences between hardware supplied to OEMs and that supplied to retail channels.

in most cases there isnt a distinct difference. =P