1000 cell phones?

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Nightshade
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1000 cell phones?

Post by Nightshade »

The EOD team leader didn’t know it was an IED. He was just going to do a BIP (Blow in Place) of ordnance. He returned after the explosion to do a post blast investigation and discovered what is in the picture.
Image

1000 bombs

And more:

From News 4, Tucson

----------------------------

Tucson Police are trying to track down two men of Middle Eastern descent who, reportedly, bought a number of cell phones within a 36-hour period over the weekend at a Tucson Sam's Club.

The incident comes on the heels of other similar incidents across the country.

The incidents have prompted terror investigations because, authorities say, those cell phones can be untraceable and used as detonators.

Tucson Police issued a news Release Tuesday afternoon regarding the incident that occurred three days ago.

-----------------------------

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5280488
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Post by Duper »

I heard something on the news late last week about some guys in Ohio with a bunch of phones. At the time I heard this, no one was suggesting these were to be used as detonators.

Dude. That's insidious and ingenious at the same time.

These Arab dudes were arrested and were found to be carrying a little over 1000 pay cell phones. They were brought up on something like money laundering. This makes a lot more sense.
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Post by Ferno »

OMG the muslims are coming! run!

they have a cell phone! hide!
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Post by Lothar »

I've been hearing about this sort of thing for the past 6 months... people buying up not one or two, but thousands of pre-paid cell phones.

It's doubtful the jihadis are looking to make bombs with them in this country... but it's possible they'll either ship them to other countries to be used as detonators, or are using them to give themselves untraceable contact.

I know there are some legitimate reasons to buy large numbers of prepaid cell phones... but the fact that it's happening on a large scale, very often by middle-eastern men paying cash, and that very often they buy 49 phones per store (since buying 50+ phones sets off some sort of automatic warning)... that all makes it worth investigating.
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Post by DCrazy »

They've been released, as they were buying the phones at WalMart to resell to retail oulets who would re-resell them at a markup.

Nothing to see here, except maybe the scariness of a WalMart Economy separate from our own.
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Post by Duper »

DCrazy wrote:Nothing to see here, except maybe the scariness of a WalMart Economy separate from our own.

...t3h h0RR0R .-_-
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Post by roid »

i'm confused what this thread was supposed to be about.

was it supposed to be a \"argh, terrorists are buying components for bombs!\" thread? Mobile phones have been used to make remote detonation bombs for ages. They are just components, nothing to wet yourself over, sheesh. Do you know how easy it is to buy that black 505 chip on the circuit board there? They routinely come in packs of 5000.

So really... who's scared here? Thunderbunny? Is he even reading this? Is this kindof driveby topic posting tollerated on E&C? It looks like trolling
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Post by Kilarin »

The issue is fear. Fear makes people willing to change. It makes them willing to give things up that otherwise they would hold dear.

The issue is also stupidity. We feel safer if we play \"whack-a-mole\" with the terrorist, even though it doesn't actually HELP anything. We ban box cutters on planes, why? because thats what they used last time. Next time they use something else, so we ban that. Of course, they will NEVER run out of weapons, but we just keep whacking at those moles whenever they pop up. Feel safer? <sigh>

There is enough dangerous material available at any hardware store for a small group of terrorist to do serious damage to our nation. But the damage would not be from the relatively minor physical damage and deaths they would cause. The damage would be from our fear.

We are like a man whose been hit by an arrow. The damage is relatively minor, and if he would just be patient and wait for the surgeon, he would be ok, but the pain is intense so he thrashes around, and the thrashing is what kills him.

It is our fear of the terrorists that does the most damage. YES we need to fight them, yes we need good intelligence work and good border security. But playing terrorist threat \"whack-a-mole\" by attempting to control whatever weapon they used last just plays directly into their hands. If you control cell-phones, they will use digital watches. if you ban digital watches, they will use oven timers. if you eliminate oven timers, they will just use string soaked in mild acid, or candles, or ANYTHING! there are SO many ways to build a timer. <sigh>

It's time to stop playing whack-a-mole and to quit living in fear of the terrorist. Yes they may hit, and yes we'll do our best to stop them, but we should NOT let them WIN by changing our free and open society.
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Post by Zuruck »

Well said Kilarin, but everyone should expect to start hearing more about these kinds of stories. Elections are coming up, the GOP will rattle the fear cages again, the threat levels will start going up, a couple more 'plots' will be foiled. The kicker? It more than likely will work, why, because Americans are still dumb.
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Post by Will Robinson »

Zuruck wrote:Well said Kilarin, but everyone should expect to start hearing more about these kinds of stories. Elections are coming up, the GOP will rattle the fear cages again, the threat levels will start going up, a couple more 'plots' will be foiled. The kicker? It more than likely will work, why, because Americans are still dumb.
It sounds like you want us to believe that the plot to use liquid explosives to take down multiple planes that was just uncovered was really just a fabricated story used by rightwing fear mongers to buttress support for the republican machine.

Do you believe it was all a hoax or are you merely willing to imply it was so you can feed the anti-rightwing meme?
Just how little attention should the airline security personel pay to the reports? Should they ignore people carrying liquids on planes because it probably wasn't a real plot?

At some point you have to accept that there is an ongoing effort by terrorists to kill more of us and each time those attempts bump up against the efforts to stop them the Bush administration is going to be in the right even if being in the right also causes voters to recognize them as having been right on the security issue.

Just how badly do you want to discredit the Bushies? One plane load of people....two plane loads... how many would Zuruck risk to get another anti-Bush soundbite on the air?
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Post by Will Robinson »

Kilarin wrote:...The issue is also stupidity. We feel safer if we play "whack-a-mole" with the terrorist, even though it doesn't actually HELP anything. We ban box cutters on planes, why? because thats what they used last time. Next time they use something else, so we ban that. Of course, they will NEVER run out of weapons, but we just keep whacking at those moles whenever they pop up. Feel safer? <sigh>...
That is bull★■◆●.
Anytime you step up the security and scrutiny on passengers and what they can carry or load on a plane you decrease the odds that one of them will succeed in hijacking or destroying the plane!!
How many El Al (Israeli Airlines) planes have been hijacked or blown up compared to all the rest of the flights in the world?
Now compare their security measures to the rest of the worlds....
Security


On the plane

Around least six undercover agents (formerly two, exact numbers are never given for security purposes) accompany each international El Al flight, sitting amongst passengers with hidden firearms. All El Al pilots are former Israeli Air Force fighter pilots, and all El Al flight crew members are trained in hand to hand combat. In fact, most El Al employees have served in the Israel Defence Force (since national service is compulsory in Israel for most citizens).

El Al airliners have double doors to keep passengers away from the pilots. A code is necessary to access the doors, the second door will only be opened after the first has closed and the person has been identified by the captain or copilot.

There are reinforced steel floors separating the passenger cabin from the baggage hold [1]. This is intended to strengthen the plane in case of an explosion in the hold or vice versa.

The El Al fleet is also the only commercial airline fleet in the world to be equipped with anti-missile countermeasures (the radar-based Flight Guard system). Switzerland has refused El AL flights landing rights because of fears that flares dropped by such an automated system might cause fires on the ground near airports, and other European governments have expressed similar views. El Al for obvious reasons does not comment about the specifications of these systems.


On the ground

Passengers are asked to report three hours before takeoff. In Israel, they are checked at a security barrier on the road to the terminal. Inside, they and their baggage are checked by a trained team. El Al security procedures also require that all passengers be interviewed individually prior to boarding, allowing El Al staff to identify possible security threats with probing questions such as about their origin, goal and occupation. The likelihood of potential terrorists staying cool under such inquisitive probing is considered low. All passengers are classified on a basic 3 tier threat scale: Israelis and Jews are usually classified as the lowest threat, Westerners are usually classified as medium level threats, and Arabs (particularly males) are usually classified as high threat.

At the check-in counter, ground staff scrutinise the passport and the ticket. They won't accept a ticket without a sticker from the security checkers. Once through passport control, where the person's name is checked through a computer, the person and their hand luggage go through rigorous screening, including hand searches. In addition, all luggage must pass through a decompression chamber; this simulates pressures during flight which may be triggers for explosives [2]. El Al is currently the only airline in the world that passes all luggage through such a chamber.


Incidents and accidents

On July 27, 1955 an El Al Lockheed Constellation plane was shot down over Bulgaria. All the crew and passengers were killed.

On July 23, 1968, an El Al 707 carrying 10 crew and 38 passengers was the target of the first Arab hijacking of an El Al plane. Three members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) hijacked the plane which was enroute from Rome, Italy to Lydda, Israel and diverted it to Algiers. The negotiations extended over 40 days. Both the hijackers and the 21 Israeli hostages ultimately went free. This was the first and only successful hijacking of an El Al flight.

Israel claimed that the hijackers left from Beirut armed, and with the full consent of the Lebanese authorities. Henceforth, Israel held Lebanon accountable and subsequently retaliated on December 28, 1968 when it raided Beirut, Lebanon's airport and destroyed 13 planes on the ground, most of which belonged to Middle East Airlines.
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Post by Zuruck »

Bush didn't seem to mind wasting 4 planes so yea, 1 or 2 works for me.

will there is no point in arguing with you anymore, you have bought Bush's diatribe since day one. i guarantee you will see more of the same stuff before the elections when it was dead quiet on the color coded death meter for the last few years. anytime bush needs a jump, he has his pal Chertoff run the meter up a level. it worked in 2004 and they think it will work again.
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Post by Zuruck »

Will Robinson wrote:It sounds like you want us to believe that the plot to use liquid explosives to take down multiple planes that was just uncovered was really just a fabricated story used by rightwing fear mongers to buttress support for the republican machine.
Yea that's pretty much it.
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Post by Will Robinson »

Zuruck wrote:Bush didn't seem to mind wasting 4 planes so yea, 1 or 2 works for me....
Are you also implying that the four planes that crashed on 9/11/2001 were not caused by terrorists but instead it was a Bush plot?
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Post by Zuruck »

Nah, I don't think he had a hand in it, but he certainly did nothing to stop it or investigate the brewing situation that many agents and the daily intelligence report was detailing. And of course, sitting on his ass for 13 minutes while Americans were dying didn't hurt him either.
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Post by Kilarin »

Will Robinson wrote:Anytime you step up the security and scrutiny on passengers and what they can carry or load on a plane you decrease the odds that one of them will succeed in hijacking or destroying the plane!!
Baloney.
You can NOT stop me from taking dangerous weapons onto a plane. weapons much more dangerous than a box knife. Not unless you are going to strip me naked. And even then, there are plenty of weapons built into the plane itself, and there are always hands and feet.

Scan for explosives, yeah, of course, but stopping people from taking nail scissors, or even box knives, onto a plane has NOT increased the security of air travel one bit.
Will Robinson wrote:How many El Al (Israeli Airlines) planes have been hijacked or blown up compared to all the rest of the flights in the world?
Not denying that El Al has done a serious job on airplane security, do you honestly want a system that causes that much inconvenience? really? Is any level of inconvenient, invasive security ok if it reduces the risks?

Let's put it into perspective.

US Motor Vehicle Deaths:
1994—40,716
1995—41,817
1996—42,065
1997—42,013
1998—41,501
1999—41,717
2000—41,945
2001—42,196
2002—43,005
2003—42,884
2004—42,636

Now how about deaths due to Terrorism? From a piece by Philip Greenspan:
the FBI has tracked deaths caused by terrorists in the US since 1990. The high mark was reached in 2001, the year of 9/11 with a total of 3,047. The previous high was 1995, the year of the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City, with 169. In no other year did the number exceed six, and in five of those years there were no deaths at all.

We could (and should) make cars safer to drive. But how far are you willing to go? We could cut that number DRASTICALLY by mandating that a breathalizer be built into every vehicle. It won't start unless you've proven you aren't drunk. Of course, there will be ways around that, (just like there are around most of the anti terrorism nonsense) but lets just assume it would work for right now. Would you approve of the government mandating that every car have a built in breathalizer to save lives? It would stop criminals from killing many more people than we do by stopping people from taking nail scissors (or even box cutters) onto airplanes.

911 will never happen again (that way) because if a terrorist attempts to take over an airplane, the people on board will stop them, even if it requires taking the plane down. We've proven that. Taking away the passengers nail scissors is just making it harder for them to stop the terrorists if they ever need to.

We need reasonable security measures. We don't need to be playing whack-a-mole. It not only doesn't help, it actually hurts.
Zuruck wrote:he certainly did nothing to stop it or investigate the brewing situation that many agents and the daily intelligence report was detailing.
Neither did anyone else. Yes, Bush is an idiot, but it's not fair to blame him for ignoring the incoming 911 threat when everyone else in the government (dem and rep) were ignoring it as well.
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Post by Will Robinson »

Zuruck wrote:Nah, I don't think he had a hand in it, but he certainly did nothing to stop it or investigate the brewing situation that many agents and the daily intelligence report was detailing. And of course, sitting on his ass for 13 minutes while Americans were dying didn't hurt him either.
Yea right! That would be the report that detailed exactly what? The one that said planes might be used as weapons...period!
You whine about invasive methods like tracking al queda finances or phone calls and yet you think armed with what you so conveniently called "detailed" info that was actually extremely vague info that Bush could have stopped the 9/11 attack?!?
Riiggghhhtttt!
So he reads the report and stops air travel altogether or demands El Al type measures, is that what you think he failed to do Zuruck? You would be all in favor of that right? :roll: Heh!
If not please quote the report and then lay out your proposal for what he should have done! Even with the benefit of hindsight you wont have a decent answer to that challenge so just stick to unsubstantiated whining ok?
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Post by Will Robinson »

Kilarin wrote:Baloney.
You can NOT stop me from taking dangerous weapons onto a plane. weapons much more dangerous than a box knife. Not unless you are going to strip me naked. And even then, there are plenty of weapons built into the plane itself, and there are always hands and feet.

Scan for explosives, yeah, of course, but stopping people from taking nail scissors, or even box knives, onto a plane has NOT increased the security of air travel one bit....
Yes it has! It was boxcutters that were used on 9/11 and it's quite obvious that without them things would have been much different. so it stands to reason that it is now much harder to hijack a plane by way of stopping people from carrying those items on board! The Israeli example proves my point. Go try to bring one of those weapons on an El Al flight that you think are so easy to carry on!

Debating whether or not you are willing to go through more stringent security measures does not change the fact that implimenting more stringent security measures does dramatically decrease the odds of an armed hijacking!
Therefore the increased security does work and the whack-a-mole theory only plays out in the context in which John McCain offered it, in the wide world of attacking some terrorists here but not attacking them there....in securing one part of Iraq by moving troops out of a region that was secure thus leaving it unsecure and up pop the terrorists in the vacated location...
That is whack-a-mole! At least get your soundbites in perspective and understand them if your going to use them as the foundation for your opinions.

In the contained enviroment of a sealed aircraft higher scrutiny and more rigorous control of passenger carry on and checked baggage is an absolute improvement of overall security.
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Post by Flabby Chick »

Kilarin wrote: do you honestly want a system that causes that much inconvenience?
It doesn't.
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Post by Will Robinson »

Flabby...good to see you're alive! Hope all is relatively well for you and yours....
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Post by Zuruck »

Hmmm...El Al has roughly how many flights per day compared to the just O'Hare?? I'm sure O'Hare puts out more flights in a half day than El Al does all day long, and that's just one American airport.

Yea that'd be the report. Tied into the one that questioned why young Arab men were only interested in taking instructions on flying (not landing) commercial airliners. I'm not sure how tracking the financial records and phone calls of millions of HARMLESS Americans would have stopped 9/11.

People like you are the reason this country is falling behind everyone else. You still believe the best method for solving problems is a good ass kicking. It's not, 99% of the world has figured that out and is moving along, but here America is, in a hole that it has no chance of climbing out of. The root of the problem is not Islam, it's not our western culture, it's people like you that have poisoned our country.
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Post by Kilarin »

Kilarin:stopping people from taking nail scissors, or even box knives, onto a plane has NOT increased the security of air travel one bit....
Will Robinson:Yes it has! It was box cutters that were used on 9/11 and it's quite obvious that without them things would have been much different.
WITH them made no difference at all once the people on the plane understood what was going on and decided to stop it. Without them, they would have just used something else. Weapons are all around us.

Check out this article by Schneier:

None of the airplane security measures implemented because of 9/11 -- no-fly lists, secondary screening, prohibitions against pocket knives and corkscrews -- had anything to do with last week's arrests. And they wouldn't have prevented the planned attacks, had the terrorists not been arrested. A national ID card wouldn't have made a difference, either.
Instead, the arrests are a victory for old-fashioned intelligence and investigation.


Playing whack-a-mole with last weeks attack weapon doesn't increase security because the terrorist just switch to a different weapon that slips through the current list. To beat the terrorist you need EFFECTIVE counter measures. Banning nail clippers isn't effective.

Especially when knives and guns get THROUGH our screening process over half the time. article

Profiling based on characteristics is bad security. Not "mean" or "unfair", BAD as in it doesn't work very well. Profiling based on behavior is GOOD security, it WORKS. We are FINALLY beginning to recognize that.

You might find Schneier's Movie Plot Terrorist Threat Contest amusing and informative. Our government keeps trying to defend against specific "movie plot" style threats. It is IMPOSSIBLE to defend against all of them as specific threats because there are just too many. Whichever ones you think of, you will be left open to one you didn't consider or defend against. BUT, good intelligence work can improve your security against ALL of these threats, because it works no matter what the individual threat is. It's EFFECTIVE and general security instead of specific threat whack-a-mole.
Kilarin wrote: do you honestly want a system that causes that much inconvenience?
Flabby Chick wrote: It doesn't.
You know, I thought for a second you were trying to tell me that you had a breathalizer installed in your car. :D

You live in Israel, right? Glad Hezbollah hasn't managed to hit you yet. Has it quieted down any at all?
Zuruck wrote:People like you are the reason this country is falling behind everyone else. You still believe the best method for solving problems is a good ass kicking. It's not, 99% of the world has figured that out and is moving along
Oh the fun, I get to disagree with BOTH sides. :)
Sometimes violence IS the only rational and moral solution. If someone is shooting at you, you have to STOP them. Terrorists should NOT be handled with kid gloves. But we can kill them without destroying our own society. When we give up freedom for security we hand the terrorists the win because thats what they WANTED.
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Post by Testiculese »

Ya know, if only 15% of the passengers were armed with knives/guns or whatever, 9/11 would have never happened. Stripping the people of defenses makes them sheep.

Nail clippers? You can't bring NAIL CLIPPERS on a plane? How pathetic. No wait, I bet I could hijack a plane with that. Enough Americans are soft and weak enough. Pretty sad. \"Govnmt! Protect me!\". Losers.
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Post by Zuruck »

sorry Testi, I don't trust that 15% and don't want my life to hang in the balance of some nutjob like Will carrying a gun.
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Post by Testiculese »

Will isn't a nutjob with a weapon. He's really not even over-eager militarily. Little bit, yes. But given what our illustrious leaders have done to those countries in the past to warrant us being a target, about all we have is military action. Once again, our illustrious leaders prove complete morons in execution. Military action, yes, guided by the government and the 'public', no.

I wouldn't trust YOU with a weapon, that's for sure. I'd trust Will in heartbeat. He's had training, for one (like everyone should have, really), and he's...what? Never had to use it? Not even for fun, using any excuse?

I call BS on you, buddy :)
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Post by Zuruck »

Yeah some training...they have classes on that? Turning an average human mind into garbage? Must be a southern thing...Testi you honestly think letting everyone carry weapons is a smart thing? Usually the people to trust WITH guns are the ones WITHOUT them...
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Post by Flabby Chick »

EnC used to be better than this guys, regardless of left or right, regardless of the book you read.....helloooo!!!!? Talk to each other!!!
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Post by Will Robinson »

Zuruck wrote:Hmmm...El Al has roughly how many flights per day compared to the just O'Hare?? I'm sure O'Hare puts out more flights in a half day than El Al does all day long, and that's just one American airport.

Yea that'd be the report. Tied into the one that questioned why young Arab men were only interested in taking instructions on flying (not landing) commercial airliners. I'm not sure how tracking the financial records and phone calls of millions of HARMLESS Americans would have stopped 9/11.

People like you are the reason this country is falling behind everyone else. You still believe the best method for solving problems is a good ass kicking. It's not, 99% of the world has figured that out and is moving along, but here America is, in a hole that it has no chance of climbing out of. The root of the problem is not Islam, it's not our western culture, it's people like you that have poisoned our country.
Zuruck your whole post shows just how shallow your thinking is, no logic, all emotion. The israeli's are the biggest target, by far for arab/persian/islamic fundamentalist terrorists.
Yet they only suffered one hijacking then put an end to it. How did they do that, by moving on or tightening security measures? It's truely sad to see you try to deny such an obvious truth because your afraid acknowledgment of facts will somehow validate Bush. That is a pathetic abandonment of common sense. Of course I'm assuming that at your core you really are intelligent enough to muster common sense.

As to the prevention of 9/11 by Bush based on the vague report that planes could be used as weapons, and even throw in this alleged report that Bush was told arabs were trying to learn to fly but not take off or land, what precisely should he have done at that point? you won't even let him listen in on conversations from known al Queda operatives!!! You won't even let him legally track their finances without screaming that he's going too far!!!!

So how just exactly what was he supposed to do?

Let's assume that he even believed that terrorists were definitely planning to use planes as missiles. Not just that in 1999 the intelligence community had heard vague chatter about that tactic without any specific threat or timetable ascribed to it and then when Bush was president they referenced that initial report with no new data added in a daily briefing early 2001, but lets go ahead and say that Bush really thought they were going to use planes for sure!
And we'll throw in the story you tell of at least one arab person tried to learn to fly with no concern for learning to land or take off!!! We won't question your source or the context or that Bush ever heard about it himself! We'll just believe you on your word!!!
Go ahead smart guy, give us the details of how he could have stopped the 9/11 attack with that information without abusing what is, in your perception, the rights and freedoms al Queda and americans have?!?
I'm waiting with baited breath!

After all, you've had no trouble of accusing Bush of being the reason those four planes full of people went down, and according to your indictment, by way of that failure to act, he's also the reason all those in the Pentagon and in the two towers died as well!
So if you can know that then you would have to know what it was he failed to do to prevent it! right?!?!?
So tell us, exactly what action should he have taken?


For those following along, here's an article that details the report Zuruck is talking about. Actually it was a series of reports and/or comments on the subject that date back at least two years before Sept. 11 2001 (note that this means Bush wasn't president then but we won't let that stop the witch hunt or even mention the name of he president who was in charge because as Zuruck will be sure to tell us, that president couldn't possibly be reposnsible and he in fact pees ginger ale and doesn't even fart)

Here's a relevant excerpt:
*********************************
'White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said that while President Bush was told last summer that bin Laden's al Qaeda network might hijack planes, "until the attack took place, I think it's fair to say that no one envisioned that [using planes as suicide bombs] as a possibility."

However, a federal report issued exactly two years before the Sept. 11 attacks contrasts with that statement.

The report, entitled the "Sociology and Psychology of Terrorism: Who Becomes a Terrorist and Why?," warned the executive branch that bin Laden's terrorists might hijack an airliner and dive bomb it into the Pentagon or other government building.

It described the suicide hijacking as one of several possible retribution attacks al Qaeda might seek for the 1998 U.S. airstrike against bin Laden's camps in Afghanistan.

"Suicide bomber(s) belonging to al Qaeda's Martyrdom Battalion could crash-land an aircraft packed with high explosives (C-4 and semtex) into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or the White House," the September 1999 report said.
"
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Post by Dedman »

Testiculese wrote:Nail clippers? You can't bring NAIL CLIPPERS on a plane? How pathetic. No wait, I bet I could hijack a plane with that.
Aaaaaaaaand now you're on a TSA/FBI/CIA/NSA/MI5 watchlist :P
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Post by Will Robinson »

Sorry for the lack of civility Flabby but I'm waging a personal jihad against pop culture's intellectual dishonesty in this debate and sometimes in a war of this nature the innocent idiots get mowed down. ;)
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Post by Lothar »

We need reasonable security measures. We don't need to be playing whack-a-mole.
What's the difference? Lay it out in a sensible manner; don't just criticize the programs you don't like as \"whack-a-mole\" and the programs you do like as \"sensible security measures\".

You (and Zuruck) seem to be incredibly impressed by the fact that last week's plot wasn't foiled by a certain set of security measures (in your purple Schneier quote.) Are you suggesting the only valid security measures are the ones that DID foil last week's plot? Should we dump every OTHER security measure just because it wasn't involved in stopping this particular plot?

I take a broader approach: we need security on multiple levels. We need security that comes in the form of developing intel on terrorists and their current plots, and on catching them before they can succeed. We also need to respond to their plots (shoe bombs, liquid bombs, etc.) as they are developed -- we don't want a second group of terrorists being able to implement the first group's plot uninhibited. At the very least, make them work at developing the next plot -- make it so they have to discuss it, train for it, develop it, and buy our intelligence services time to catch them because they can't just reuse the last plot. And we need security that comes from limiting people's ability to bring hazardous materials onboard aircraft -- not to completely disarm everyone, but to make it so we're all fighting with the same weapons. (Yeah, someone who's well-trained with their hands and feet can take someone who isn't... but they can't take down 10 people piling on them from all sides..)

If the moles keep popping up, you have to whack them. You're not going to whack all of them, of course, but whack the ones that are currently a problem. Along with this, continue to work on intel -- continue taking out the specific threatening parties, as well as responding to the specific threatening strategies. You can't defend against every movie plot, but you can defend against the most credible threats -- the movie plots your intel says are actively being pursued.

The same goes for profiling -- you use both the behavior AND the characteristics that are relevant, not just one or the other. You look at the whole picture. If most terrorists are middle eastern males between the ages of 17 and 40, then giving people who fit that description a little more attention is the right response. Giving them 100% of the attention is the wrong response. The key is to find the balance -- figure out how much attention you should give to different behaviors and different characteristics at different points in the process. If racial/religious/ethnic profiling is worthwhile for locating terrorist groups through intel operations, but not worthwhile for identifying threats at the airport itself, then use it in the one situation and not the other.

Use all the tools at your disposal.
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Post by roid »

so Will, what do you think should be done about this mobile phone problem?
Will Robinson wrote:I'm waging a personal jihad
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Post by Dakatsu »

What I find funny is even though it was the British who found the terrorists, we are taking the credit.
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Post by Duper »

Dakatsu wrote:What I find funny is even though it was the British who found the terrorists, we are taking the credit.
The Paki's were involved too. The brits nailed them but they knew they were coming. We and the Brits were informed by the Paki's but yeah. our media is pretty lame that way.
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Post by TIGERassault »

Dakatsu wrote:What I find funny is even though it was the British who found the terrorists, we are taking the credit.
Anyone else not suprised by this?
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Post by Will Robinson »

roid wrote:so Will, what do you think should be done about this mobile phone problem?
Will Robinson wrote:I'm waging a personal jihad
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As far as I can tell there is no mobile phone problem. That's why I never mentioned the mobile phones or the people who allegedly bought them for whatever purpose! I focused my attention on the fallacious arguments that were being raised....

For me the phone situation is pretty easily dealt with:
*If* the authorities think they bought them to use as detonators or as wire tap free communications then start watching them...
*If* the authorities think they bought them to resell at a profit then check to see that they have the proper license to engage in that form of commerce....

And on that note, in N.C. a Hezbollah group was raising money for their cause by buying ciggarettes cheap from the indian reservations tax free and reselling them. The funds were sent back to Hezbollah in the middle east...if reselling mobile phones is that lucrative then this might be why they fit the profile and were buying one less than the number that triggers reporting to the authorities.

What do you think roid, does limiting the items one can carry on a plane reduce the possibility that one can sucessfully hijack the plane?
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Post by Flabby Chick »

Slightly off topic. The guys that came back from up north were saying that Hizbullah had equipment (wonder who from?) to track signals and listen to conversations fom phones. The only way to cut it out was by removing the battery, which everyone did in the second week of the conflict. Didn't know that it could be done to be honest...not being mr techie 2006 n all.
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Post by Kilarin »

Kilarin wrote:We need reasonable security measures. We don't need to be playing whack-a-mole.
Lothar wrote:What's the difference? Lay it out in a sensible manner; don't just criticize the programs you don't like as "whack-a-mole" and the programs you do like as "sensible security measures".
Sensible security measures take into account the cost benefit ratio, and attempt to solve general problems instead of specific ones. For example, insisting on special "shoe" security because of the shoe bomber is NOT good security. It's just as easy to hide explosives in your belt or belt buckle, or under a hat. The rational approach is improved overall security for discovering explosives being slipped in through ANY channel.
Lothar wrote:You (and Zuruck) seem to be incredibly impressed by the fact that last week's plot wasn't foiled by a certain set of security measures (in your purple Schneier quote.) Are you suggesting the only valid security measures are the ones that DID foil last week's plot?
Can you point to any case where forbidding box-knives or nail clippers has prevented a hijacking? We know that improved intelligence WORKS. It works no matter what the threat. Preventing me from carrying my pocket knife onto a plane only inconveniences me and in no way improves security. Actually, it LOWERS it.

On 911, the ONLY security method that SUCCEEDED in stopping a plane from hitting a building was when the passengers attacked and overwhelmed the terrorists. So, what is our immediate response? More security to disarm the passengers. Huh?!?
Lothar wrote:I take a broader approach: we need security on multiple levels.
Yes, it DOES have to be multi-leveled, I'm not saying we shouldn't have chemical sniffers or bomb dogs. I'm saying that approaches such as having a special shoe search instead of a generalized bomb search is not only pointless, but counter productive. It blinds the searchers to other paths of attack. Forbidding me to carry my nail clippers onto a plane has NOT prevented any hijackings. It's a method that has costs, but no benefits.
Lothar wrote:If the moles keep popping up, you have to whack them.
NOT if you come up with approaches that deal with the mole problem in general. Instead of watching the hole they last came out of, gas the entire den.

And this is NOT a "bash Bush" attack. At least not from me. Yes, I think Bush is an idiot about security, but so is almost EVERYONE. Security is a complicated subject, it's NOT intuitive, and that's why so many computer security systems fail. People spend a lot of time and money puting in complex measures that actually decrease the overall security of their system. The same thing happens with physical security on airplanes. Bush doesn't understand this, but then neither do most other politicians, or the vast majority of the people in the public. Heck, I wouldn't even say for certain Bush doesn't understand it. The people DEMAND these STUPID "security" measures, politicians respond with what the people want instead of what they need. The problem crosses all political boundaries. Clinton is the one who gelded the CIA so that it wouldn't have the intelligence on the ground that might have figured out 911 was coming.
Will Robinson wrote:As far as I can tell there is no mobile phone problem.
And that is the point. YES, mobile phones ARE used as detonation devices for bombs. But that does not mean we should suddenly start taking massive security measures around mobile phones. The security measures would have high cost and almost no benefit whatsoever. Banning box knives, pocket knives and nail clippers on planes is exactly the same situation.
Flabby Chick wrote:Hizbullah had equipment (wonder who from?) to track signals and listen to conversations fom phones
It all depends on which phone. There are some VERY frightening things that can be done with cell phones, especially if the local phone company is cooperating. Some phones can even be turned on remotely without ringing, in which case your phone (sitting in your pocket or purse) suddenly starts transmitting and you never know it.

And almost ANY phone broadcasts its position to the network. Many do this even when they are supposedly "turned off". Thus the need for removing the batteries.
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Post by DCrazy »

Every phone in the U.S. must broadcast its position to comply with E-911 -- though this feature might only be enabled when placing an emergency call. Additionally, all cell phones are constantly transmitting and receiving to determine what hexagonal-shaped cell they are in; this is an important part of how cell coverage actually works. If the phone is within range of three towers, its position can be triangulated based on the delay between the tower and the phone. If it is only within range of two towers, a cone (or is a frustrum?) of possible positions can be determined.

So we're kinda out of luck on that one.
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Post by Will Robinson »

Kilarin wrote:...And that is the point. YES, mobile phones ARE used as detonation devices for bombs. But that does not mean we should suddenly start taking massive security measures around mobile phones. The security measures would have high cost and almost no benefit whatsoever. Banning box knives, pocket knives and nail clippers on planes is exactly the same situation...
That is a most illogical statement! Adding scissors and knives etc. to the ban list is not a high cost change in security measures! You already have them screening for guns and hand grenades so just how expensive is it to add knives to the list?!? You are really being silly here!
If we didn't add the box cutters to the list the liquid explosive plan wouldn't have ever been tried instead it would have simply been round two of the box cutter plan!

You are apparantly willing to abandon logic in search of support for your assertion that screening for knives etc is not effective. Go ask all those experts you quoted if they think allowing boxcutters on board again is a good idea, an idea that they would promote. :roll:

Just because any one aspect of the screening process isn't a cure and would be ineffective as a sole measure by no means does it mean it's ineffective or counter productive when its part of the larger effort as you want us to believe!
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