shoot first laws

Sulaco · Post by **Sulaco** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:55 pm

I dunno Zuruck, my aunt was jewinsh and was a nice lady... go figure...

Xamindar · Post by **Xamindar** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:18 pm

I'm curious. Why does Diedel post anti-American things? There must be plenty of things to complain about in regards to Germany. Actually, I'm positive there is.

So that's it! I'm gonna move to Japan. It's safe there.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:37 pm

yeah, except earth quakes, tsunami's, and Godzilla.

=Tempest= · Post by **=Tempest=** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:37 pm

The right to bear arms protects the American people from an oppresive regime. The founding fathers realized that if the only people with guns are the police and army, bad things can happen. Since I can't read German, I can't confirm the article's truthfulness. I can say that such cases that you provided are outrageous, but one should not quickly judge what 12 regular people decided until they know the facts.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:47 pm

Coming in a bit late, sorry.

I likeand they have a 9mm version. I wonder if Barry would approve of the manufacturer?

Yeah, Para makes a solid firearm. It's a chopped and bobbed 1911 clone.They come with a two piece guide rods that I strongly suggest changing out to a one piece.The two piece rods will sometimes come unscrewed in the middle of shooting, disabling the weapon.

As far as the weapon of choice for a new shooter-
I wouldn't suggest it. The .45 ACP was designed to be shot in a 5 inch barrel. A short cycle 1911 will have problems feeding/extracting. If you must have that firearm, I strongly suggest you get no less than a 4 inch. That is a 3 inch 1991(short cycle)

The 9mm round is a joke unless it is in a machine gun or a semi auto.

I wouldn't call the 9mm a joke.
It isn't the most effective caliber, but certainly not a joke.

It takes 3 or 4 rounds to knock someone down, where as a 45 - one shot and he is down.

First, let me clear something up. There is absolutely no such thing as a caliber specific one shot stopper in a handgun. It just doesn't happen that way.
There is no guaranty that 1 or 20 shots from any firearm will stop the threat immediately. I've read hundreds, maybe thousands of reports and the only hard and fast rule is- there are no hard and fast rules. I've seen many reports where the subject was shot 1 time with a .22 rimfire and he stopped immediately. I've read reports of subjects who have hit with 7 shots from a .357 mag and the guy chased the shooter a block and a half before he collapsed.
So an actual one shot stop is very, very rare regardless of caliber.

Trauma is the name of the game and a .45 will certainly create more trauma than a 9mm if the projectlile enters the same general area. A .22 rimfire to the heart/lungs is just as effective as a 45 in the same area, dead is dead.

Bullet placement is far more critical than caliber selection. My advice is to a find a reliable, comfy weapon that you shoot well(placing the bullets were you want them). An uncomfy, inaccurate 50 caliber is useless, while an accurate .22 rimfire is deadly.

Too much emphasis is placed on caliber and not enough placed on proficiancy. If you can squeeze the bang switch, it goes boom everytime and you can hit what you're aiming at- THAT is the perfect weapon.

Testi,
Don't let the caliber specific guys tell you that the 9mm is a pansy cartridge.If you have wrist issues a steel framed 9mm is probably a solid choice. Stay away from polymer frames, the felt re-coil is exaggerated by lack of weight. A steel framed, 5inch .45 will actually re-coil quite a bit less than a 3inch, polymer framed 9mm.

Barry B.S(ballistics specialist)

Cuda68 · Post by **Cuda68** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:21 am

Fusion pimp wrote:Coming in a bit late, sorry.

I likeand they have a 9mm version. I wonder if Barry would approve of the manufacturer?
Yeah, Para makes a solid firearm. It's a chopped and bobbed 1911 clone.They come with a two piece guide rods that I strongly suggest changing out to a one piece.The two piece rods will sometimes come unscrewed in the middle of shooting, disabling the weapon.

As far as the weapon of choice for a new shooter-
I wouldn't suggest it. The .45 ACP was designed to be shot in a 5 inch barrel. A short cycle 1911 will have problems feeding/extracting. If you must have that firearm, I strongly suggest you get no less than a 4 inch. That is a 3 inch 1991(short cycle)

The 9mm round is a joke unless it is in a machine gun or a semi auto.
I wouldn't call the 9mm a joke.
It isn't the most effective caliber, but certainly not a joke.

It takes 3 or 4 rounds to knock someone down, where as a 45 - one shot and he is down.
First, let me clear something up. There is absolutely no such thing as a caliber specific one shot stopper in a handgun. It just doesn't happen that way.
There is no guaranty that 1 or 20 shots from any firearm will stop the threat immediately. I've read hundreds, maybe thousands of reports and the only hard and fast rule is- there are no hard and fast rules. I've seen many reports where the subject was shot 1 time with a .22 rimfire and he stopped immediately. I've read reports of subjects who have hit with 7 shots from a .357 mag and the guy chased the shooter a block and a half before he collapsed.
So an actual one shot stop is very, very rare regardless of caliber.

Trauma is the name of the game and a .45 will certainly create more trauma than a 9mm if the projectlile enters the same general area. A .22 rimfire to the heart/lungs is just as effective as a 45 in the same area, dead is dead.

Bullet placement is far more critical than caliber selection. My advice is to a find a reliable, comfy weapon that you shoot well(placing the bullets were you want them). An uncomfy, inaccurate 50 caliber is useless, while an accurate .22 rimfire is deadly.

Too much emphasis is placed on caliber and not enough placed on proficiancy. If you can squeeze the bang switch, it goes boom everytime and you can hit what you're aiming at- THAT is the perfect weapon.

Testi,
Don't let the caliber specific guys tell you that the 9mm is a pansy cartridge.If you have wrist issues a steel framed 9mm is probably a solid choice. Stay away from polymer frames, the felt re-coil is exaggerated by lack of weight. A steel framed, 5inch .45 will actually re-coil quite a bit less than a 3inch, polymer framed 9mm.

Barry B.S(ballistics specialist)

I don't know where to begin. Should we talk about deflection with a small caliber vrs a large caliber as any hunter would know or where you call the .50 round inaccurate or just walk away from this laughing. You must be thinking of a smooth bore muzzle load on the .50 cal because our military is nailing targets with .50 cals at ranges up to 2 miles away with extreme accuracy.

Of course caliber makes a difference, hit them with a baseball bat or a well placed twig?

Don't get me wrong if he has something wrong with his wrist then a lighter caliber is a wiser choic but I would reccomend a .380 auto over a 22 in that case.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:37 am

Cuda68 wrote:I don't know where to begin. Should we talk about deflection with a small caliber vrs a large caliber as any hunter would know or where you call the .50 round inaccurate or just walk away from this laughing. You must be thinking of a smooth bore muzzle load on the .50 cal because our military is nailing targets with .50 cals at ranges up to 2 miles away with extreme accuracy.

I understood him to mean that the .50 would be inacurate if the shooter couldn't handle the size of the weapon.
The recoil and the flinch factor that surely comes from firing a weapon that is too heavy and powerful for ones ability makes it inacurate regardless of the intrinsic acuracy of the firearm.

Sure a trained soldier can put a .50 round right between the eyes of an enemy at a very long range but when someone asks about self defence on the street a .50 sniper rifle doesn't really come into play! With a threat at two miles distance you don't need a self defense weapon of any kind, you merely need to know you shouldn't travel the two miles into his nieghborhood!

Cuda68 · Post by **Cuda68** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:40 am

I kinda understood that to because the topic is about home defence, but he also sounded like a DFL'R to me. It was the DFL's that took the M1 - M4 rifles away from us in nam and gave us the M15 and M16 series. We are running around the jungle full of vines, tree's and shrubs with friggin high powered 22 rifles and then some jerk comes up with full metal jacket ammo because soft points not civalized bullets. I am getting off topic here so I am letting this go after this post.

The point is Caliber does make a big difference in knock down power and damage. You can't wait around for someone to give you that nice shot for the 22 to take them out. Shooting someone is about death not wounding them.

And for the young folks here, if you find you are in the position of having to shoot someone make sure you understand what death means and the long term effect it will have on you and other people - its a heavy price no matter how right you think you are or where. Lots of bad pics remain in your head. If you have the choice to run take it, there is no shame in not killing someone if you don't have to.

Edit - Mod, if you feel I am over the top here go ahead and edit or delete. Personally I think this should go NHB soon.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:52 pm

Cuda,

I think you did miss the entire meaning of my post.
In no way am I saying that a smaller caliber is more effective. Of course a larger caliber is more effective- if you can shoot it proficiantly.

Let's face it, the average firearm owner makes it to the range once a year, maybe. People need to be realisitic with their needs. A 90 year old 4ft 11inch female is much better served with a lighter caliber weapon. Testi is better served with a lighter caliber weapon. What good is a canon that you cannot control?

Speaking of realistic, a 45acp does not drop people with one shot. My weapon of choice is a 1911 and I know that cartridge like the back of my hand. It's probably the best handgun cartridge ever made for self defense.I've seen what it does to the human body- I can tell you with complete confidence that a 45 acp is a not a magic one shot stopper. There is no such thing.
I will defend that cartridge to the day I die, but I'm also realistic.

You're welcome to walk away laughing if you wish, Cuda. I know modern firearms and cartridges very, very well and I know where each one shines and what their limitations are.You're arguing with the wrong guy.

Cuda68 · Post by **Cuda68** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:16 pm

What I found laughable was your remarks regarding the .50 cal being inacurate and clumsy and then going to a well placed 22 shot being just as good as any large caliber weapon, I still find it laughable. You went from one extreme to another - The rest of what you said was very accurate though and good info.

And I will argue or discuss anything I want, I am an old fat man with nothing else to do

- how you handle it is your business.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:07 pm

Cuda68 wrote:What I found laughable was your remarks regarding the .50 cal being inacurate and clumsy and then going to a well placed 22 shot being just as good as any large caliber weapon, I still find it laughable.

Reread what he said:

An uncomfy, inaccurate 50 caliber is useless, while an accurate .22 rimfire is deadly.

He wasn't saying "all 50 calibers are inaccurate" or "all .22's are always deadly"... he's saying, if you personally can't hit with a 50 cal it's useless, and if you can hit exactly where you want with a smaller caliber you should go with it.

This is, of course, opposed to the philosophy that you should always choose the biggest gun you can get.

BTW, this is hilarious:

NEW YORK (AP) -- Margaret Johnson might have looked like an easy target.

But when a mugger tried to grab a chain off her neck Friday, the 56-year-old Johnson, while riding in her wheelchair, pulled out her licensed .357 pistol and shot him, police said.

Yep.

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:42 pm

But when a mugger tried to grab a chain off her neck Friday, the 56-year-old Johnson, while riding in her wheelchair, pulled out her licensed .357 pistol and shot him, police said.

Gotta LOVE those armed grannies!

My grandfather, at well over 80, went to his doctor to complain about his hands shaking. He told the doc that the shaking was so bad he had actually missed a squirrel he was shooting at. The doctor threw a fit. He said, \"You are 85 and your hands shake like a leaf! You should NOT be shooting a rifle!\" My grandfather shook his head and said, \"I guess you're right. I got the first 25 squirrels with one shot each, but that last one, I just winged him\"

It really was incredible watching him shoot. His hands would shake like crazy until he pulled a bead on something, then suddenly they were rock steady until he pulled the trigger.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:17 am

Reminds me of watching my Grandpa in his early 70's knock a pop can off a fence post at 60 some feet with a slingshot. 0_o

Technically it was a wrist-rocket.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:40 am

You must be thinking of a smooth bore muzzle load on the .50 cal because our military is nailing targets with .50 cals at ranges up to 2 miles away with extreme accuracy.

I missed this- Okay, listen. our military is not successful using .50's \"2 miles away\". While the .50 is inherently accurate, it's accurate for a bit less than 2000 yards. It was designed as an anti-personel weapon and does a great job, but it's not making a 10,560 foot journey, more like 6000 feet. As far as \"extreme accuracy\", I guess that depends on what you consider extremely accurate. They hit Jeep's and vehicles at 2000 yards, not small targets.The longest recorded sniper shot was made with a .50 BMG @2657 yards by Rob Furlong. It was an incredible shot, no doubt, but not one that happens every day.
I'm far more impressed with Carlos Hathcock- he used an -06 his whole military career and made 1500-1700 yard shots. Far, far more imprssive because zero'd @100 the MPBR is only 269 yards with a 180grn projectile.Try doping the elevation and wind at 1500 yards with a cartridge that was designed to shoot no more than 500. The .50 BMG was designed to shoot at 2000 yards without much doping.

What I found laughable was your remarks regarding the .50 cal being inacurate and clumsy and then going to a well placed 22 shot being just as good as any large caliber weapon, I still find it laughable.

If the person cannot handle a large caliber firearm then not only is the well placed .22 rimfire just as good, it's better.
1 well placed hit is better than a magazine full of misses-regardless of caliber.

I'm simply not sure how you find that laughable.

You're acting like the \"hard-core, black rifle\" guys that come into the shop..They laugh at my long range precision rifles and tell me they're useless because they're single shot. They tell me that unless it has a selector switch and holds at least 20 rounds it's no good. I find that laughable, mostly because when they take their \"useful\" rifles varminting, they have a magazine full of ammo, but not a one can hit a 6\"x2\" ground squirrel @ 100 yards...My single shot drives it home @ 800 yards pretty regularly and very, very regularly at 500 yards.
Bigger/more is not always better.

Cuda68 · Post by **Cuda68** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:49 pm

Your right its 2000 yards which is a little over a mile - I totally blew that one. But my point remains that it is not an inaccurate weapon.
This whole thread started with home defence pro/con stuff and how it frightened someone. That you even mentioned the .50 or much less that it is inaccrate is still laughable to me. As you yourself pointed out the only real use for it is military purposes.
As far as the hard core doom and gloom people - they scare me. My view on all that is that it is mostly hog wash. I can however see social unrest as a need for home defence. Our society here in the U.S. is in pretty bad shape. I see no need what so ever for full auto weapons or clips/weapons having a capicity of more than 5 or 10 rounds for civialin use. I personally have a .380 auto and a shot gun for home defence. My other's are rifles for sport and target shooting only and they all hold 3 shots and are bolt action with the excetption of the M1 Garand which is more of a show item than something I would consider useing. So no, I am not one of them, but however I am also opposed to the DFL's point of view. It seems to be one extreme or the other.
I still hold the thought that a .22 is not a home defence weapon, every weapon like tools has there place, and as you pointed out it is best suited for varmits and targett shooting.

Edit: I forgot to metion why I think the 9mm is a joke. I feel it was devolpoed for the spray and pray people which is just a wrong way of thinking to me. So I am dead set against it for that reason only.

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:05 pm

My home defense weapon is a pistol crossbow.

I figure, I ever get into trouble, I'm going to point it at the bad guy and very calmly say, \"Now then, if you move, I'm going to shoot you with this. The chances that it will kill you are actually pretty low. Which means, in all likelihood, you are going to have to pull this quarrel back OUT of yourself. Think about that.\"

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:25 pm

Cuda,

Respectfully- I cannot understand how in the world you think I'm suggesting that a .50 is inaccurate. You've grossly mis-read my post(s) multiple times. I never said that.I also never said that a .50 only real use is for military purpose.

Maybe this will drive it home-
If a person has a .50 cal(or any other large caliber) but cannot effectively make hits with it, it is a useless weapon to that person.It is not an inherently inaccurate weapon, the person is inaccurate because the person shooting it cannot control it, so it is useless to that person.
Can you agree with that?

Shadowfury333 · Post by **Shadowfury333** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:46 pm

Fusion pimp wrote:Maybe this will drive it home-
If a person has a .50 cal(or any other large caliber) but cannot effectively make hits with it, it is a useless weapon to that person.It is not an inherently inaccurate weapon, the person is inaccurate because the person shooting it cannot control it, so it is useless to that person.
Can you agree with that?

Makes sense, like a tennis racket or a golf club. The higher quality racket or club(or gun, in this case) is generally harder to use, but if used well provides a major advantage.

Cuda68 · Post by **Cuda68** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:26 am

Yes, I agree with that. But here is what you said:

Bullet placement is far more critical than caliber selection. My advice is to a find a reliable, comfy weapon that you shoot well(placing the bullets were you want them). An uncomfy, inaccurate 50 caliber is useless, while an accurate .22 rimfire is deadly.

I understand you where useing it as a metafore of sorts to show the range of calibers and the importance of chooseing what is comfortable and to not simply choose the bigest one out there.

Will Robinson pointed out your meaning shortly after that and I replied that I kinda understood that to because the topic is about home defence.

I got all that and I was going to let it go after that. But you seem driven to argue a point I already conceded. So I had some fun with it because you instructed me not to argue with you because your the wrong guy to argue with. It was that remark that inspired me to act dense with you and keep responding. I don't take statements like that from people who I don't really know, heck I don't accept them from people I do know. But after all this I feel I know you a little better than I did before this.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:26 am

He didn't instruct you not to argue with him, he simply mentioned that since he is familiar with all the info, there was no use in trying to convince him of something he already knows about.

Dense...

Hey Barry, can you spin off the top three reliable 9mm 4.25\" manufacturers? Would Para be one of them? I'm looking closer at this one.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:07 pm

Cuda,
I understand, you were screwing with me.

Testi- It's a bit more complicated than simply suggesting the top 3. The top three to me may be completely different than the top 3 to you. I have small hands, so I tend to lean toward smaller framed weapons. There's plenty of solid firearm makers on the market, it's simply a matter of finding one that fits your hand well.
List of questions that will help me narrow it down-

1. big or small hands?
2. plan on carrying or just for the home? If it's just for the home, have you considered a shotgun- easy to use and it's hard to miss down a hallway.
3. what is your budget?
4. does it have to be a semi-auto?
5. how much will you practice with it, really.. I frequently hear people tell me that they'll practice a couple times a month, but find they usually don't due to lack of time.Average is about 1-2 times a year.

I'll tell you what I use for the home and you can use or disgard the information, everyone, every home and every situation is different.

I have a dbl brrl .410 in the hall closet, a dbl brrl .20 on the wife's side of the bed and my .45 acp on my nightstand.
Shotgun is first line of defense, the pistol is actully back-up.

I know you didn't ask for all this, but the name of the game is to keep you and yours safe and I want to give you the information to make an informed decision.

Take an hour or so, go down to your local gunshop and put every 9mm they have in stock in your hand. Find the top 5 and write them down in order of preference. Don't bother looking at the price, just tell me what fits. The price shouldn't be much of an issue, your life is worth 100 fold the cost of any firearm. If price is an issue and you like one that is out of your budget, I can find a firearm very similar to what you like for less money(usually).

To your question: Most firearms on the market from major manufacturers are pretty darn reliable.

B-

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:05 pm

I just meant in reliability. Which ones don't fall apart, which ones jam the least, etc. I was going to take that as a base to start checking models.

I dont' have any long barrels. They all burned in the house fire several years ago. Never got around to replacing them. Since I've shot them all my life, and only get a hold of pistols a few times a year, I decided to re-do my collection from the handgun side first.

1. Hand size is palm-to-tip covers capslock to K, all rows.
2. Home for the most part. I'm going to get a carry license, but rarely carry.
3. $500 or thereabouts.
4. This one does

5. There is a gun shop/range near where my pool league will be playing, so I've two reasons to go that way.
6. Practice time, honestly, probably often to start, slack off to about every other month/every three, with spurts. I haven't shot a pistol for years, so I'll burn through a few boxes to steady my hand, then just maintenance.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:20 am

Okay-
I know I told you to stay away from polymer framed pistols due to re-coil, but I forgot that the XD's have a fully supported barrel which reduces re-coil a great deal.
It's a 4 inch, 9mm and they're rock solid. Springfield is the oldest firearm maker in the U.S, they supplied weapons for the civil war(that's pretty old) and they have a wonderful track record. They have a lifetime no B.S warranty and they're not afraid or too cheap to use it(Buddy purchased a 1911 that he sent back for repair, they just gave him a new one- it's was an 1800.00 pistol). I've sold hundreds of these things and not a one of them has come back. Every person that I've talked to that has one says they're the best thing since sliced bread.My father is in the process of securing his concealed weapons permit and I'm buying the smaller version for him.. I'm that confident in the weapon.

Scroll down and you can click on the highlighted \"image\" to see the flavors they come in.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod- ... vice.shtml

Springfield's MSRP is 536.00, but most can be had for under 500, we sell them for 479.00.
They come with two magazines, a double mag pouch, holster, mag loader and a nice case. For the money they're impossible to beat.
I have a lot of experience with Springfield and own well over a dozen of thei 1911's, their customer service is absolutely top notch.

The Para Tac-5 would also be a good choice, but they're considerably more than 500.00. Expect to spend no less than 800.00 for a 1911 platform.The tac5 is a modified 1911-they're built on a 1911 frame, but have been modified to a double action/single action. First pull is double action and the rest are single action. That's a great choice for someone who wants a 1911, but doesn't want to put in teh time to learn the ins and outs of a single action pistol.

http://www.para-lda.com/ldaCarryHiCap.html#tac5

If you're willing to spend the money and willing to put in the time to learn the weapon well, I would suggest a standard single action 1911.It is my weapon of choice and as far as I'm concerned, it's the best combat weapon ever made- they're reliable, accurate and very, very fast. I carry this one

http://www.springfield-armory.com/image ... LLarge.jpg

It is carried and stored with the hammer back and thumb safety locked- it looks scary, but is very safe. Again, I only suggest this type of pistol if you're willing to put in the time. It's not for a newcomer to the shooting world.

So, you have a Springfield XD with the \"safe action\"-
no cocking, hidden hammer and the trigger pull is the same every shot.

The Para which is a double/single action- first trigger pull is long(double action) and then goes to single action pull.

And:

Single action only- the trigger pull is the same every shot, but the exposed hammer must be in the cocked position to fire.

How's that for directly answering your question?

Hint- there's nothing more sexy than a 1911.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:29 am

Sorry-

None of these will fall apart and if properly maintained should not jam. The problem is that two pistols rolling off the assembly line, one right after the other may function differently. One may jam a few times and the other may run like a striped ape and never jam. The good news is that if you buy a Springfield and it jams, they will make it good, no questions asked.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:53 pm

I didn't know Springfield made pistols...I've shot thier rifles over the years, but this is news to me

I like the Springfield's. The Para's are slick looking, but I wanted a 4\" barrel, black, and their 4 inchers seem to be all silver and/or .45's.

I'm especially liking the XD9101HCSP06. Nice safety features, looks, capacity and accessories. I'm going to see what the price is locally. edit:: $465..not bad. Tha Para's sure are pretty though, but I'm not going to put out a grand one one...yet.