Sounding the retreat...

[Nightshade]

Whether you liked or hated Bush, this will surely be seen as a retreat and a sign of weakness from the jihadists. Look for them to celebrate and plan for our destruction at a feverish pitch.

[Birdseye]

Look for them to be pissed off that the guy helping their cause the most took a hit.

[Skyalmian]

[Will Robinson]

Bush may have given them a posterboy for their recruiting efforts but they were recruiting just the same. It's not like they never struck us or anyone before Bush came along. The 9/11 attacks were planned and put in motion long before Bush and would have been carried out with Gore at the helm!
Also, although he gives them some fodder for their rhetoric he also is probably the single most deadly force they have ever faced and he's caused thousands of them to die and tons of their support to shut down, countless sanctuaries to be shut down, networks they used to transfer money and intel shut down etc. etc. etc.
Bush has been a definite net gain for our side in the war on terror.

Go back and tally up the friendly fire and destruction of property, and assorted bad blood caused by Patton and MacArthur et al and tell me that in the middle of WWII you would have declared them the enemies best friend for being so bold, brutal and cocky.....

[Ford Prefect]

Your right on many levels Will but it is a damn shame that instead of focusing on shutting down terror networks and cutting out the funding systems and attacking the root causes the Bush administration wasted so much effort, money and lives in such a useless war.
I think it is a disservice to those who fought, suffered and died in WW2 to compare that campaign against aggression to this aggressive, pre-emptive strike against the wrong target.

[roid]

bolding by me

Whether you liked or hated Bush, this will surely be seen as a retreat and a sign of weakness from the jihadists. Look for them to celebrate and plan for our destruction at a feverish pitch.

lol, i can just see you screaming at the sky "DAMN YOU DEMOCRACYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!"

GB2 Facistville

[Repo Man]

I break out my patented, stainless steel nitpicker...

GB2 Facistville

The Fascists were socialists, BTW. Example: "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" ("National Socialist German Workers Party" ), a.k.a. the "Nazis."

Since I recall you expressing your socialist tendencies in the past, I would say that you probably have a lot more in common with the Fascists than "GB2."

...A friendy poke, poke...

[roid]

*head 'splodes*

[woodchip]

Whether you liked or hated Bush, this will surely be seen as a retreat and a sign of weakness from the jihadists. Look for them to celebrate and plan for our destruction at a feverish pitch.

As it turns out TB you are absolutelt correct. News this morning after the big "Lets pull out of Iraq and we can negotiate demoscammer win" we have from AQ is they have 12 thousand fighters willing to die with the destruction of the White House as their stated goal. When they do I hope it is filled with the liberal democratic hardcore. Perhaps then they will wake up.

[TIGERassault]

HUZZAH!
And hopefully this will also cut out the 'terrorism is a giant threat' attitude of the news crews.

Also, although he gives them some fodder for their rhetoric he also is probably the single most deadly force they have ever faced and he's caused thousands of them to die and tons of their support to shut down, countless sanctuaries to be shut down, networks they used to transfer money and intel shut down etc. etc. etc.
Bush has been a definite net gain for our side in the war on terror.

Which side is this?

[Testiculese]

Bush may have given them a posterboy for their recruiting efforts but they were recruiting just the same. It's not like they never struck us or anyone before Bush came along. The 9/11 attacks were planned and put in motion long before Bush and would have been carried out with Gore at the helm!

Yea, probably started when Bush Sr. was in charge!

[Ferno]

As it turns out TB you are absolutelt correct. News this morning after the big "Lets pull out of Iraq and we can negotiate demoscammer win" we have from AQ is they have 12 thousand fighters willing to die with the destruction of the White House as their stated goal. When they do I hope it is filled with the liberal democratic hardcore. Perhaps then they will wake up.

The massive recruitments happened after reports about tortures and abuses happening in Gitmo surfaced, US troops started shooting at everything that moved, extraordinary rendtitions, the botched reconstruction efforts, the lack of security when there was looting and the basic necessities such as running water were not met.

Had none of this happened, there wouldn't be a huge force to reckon with.

[Will Robinson]

HUZZAH!
And hopefully this will also cut out the 'terrorism is a giant threat' attitude of the news crews.

You seem to have a rather backwards take on the meaning of a terrorist telling you point blank that he intends to sacrifice as many as 12 thousand islami-kazi's in a fight to blow up our capitol!
Even if the news crews are obliged to follow your insane line of thought on this let me assure you that anytime some slapnut al Queda leader and 12 thousand plus armed suicidal warriors set out to blow up the White House it will be considered a giant threat! And it will take more than just a majority of liberals in congress to cause america at large to adopt such a silly mindset.

Also, although he gives them some fodder for their rhetoric he also is probably the single most deadly force they have ever faced and he's caused thousands of them to die and tons of their support to shut down, countless sanctuaries to be shut down, networks they used to transfer money and intel shut down etc. etc. etc.
Bush has been a definite net gain for our side in the war on terror.

Which side is this?

That would be the side of the struggle that is smart enough to know that al Queda intends to kill all types of americans, republicans and democrats. Including those democrats who think they can do the ostrich to avoid the wrath of the neo-12th century islamofascist movement.

You know, if you told me you recognize the threat but think military action isn't the best way to stop them and then offered an alternative I could respect that and consider your perspective but if you are going to suggest there is no real threat then I have to assume you are completely insane and your just echoing some political rhetoric you heard hoping to sound like you have something to offer the discussion.

[TIGERassault]

You seem to have a rather backwards take on the meaning of a terrorist telling you point blank that he intends to sacrifice as many as 12 thousand islami-kazi's in a fight to blow up our capitol!
Even if the news crews are obliged to follow your insane line of thought on this let me assure you that anytime some slapnut al Queda leader and 12 thousand plus armed suicidal warriors set out to blow up the White House it will be considered a giant threat! And it will take more than just a majority of liberals in congress to cause america at large to adopt such a silly mindset.

Tell me, where are these thousands of "Islami-kami"s? Are they now lying dead in the middle of the flaming wreck that used to be the White House, or are they still in Iraq?

That would be the side of the struggle that is smart enough to know that al Queda intends to kill all types of americans, republicans and democrats. Including those democrats who think they can do the ostrich to avoid the wrath of the neo-12th century islamofascist movement.

You know, if you told me you recognize the threat but think military action isn't the best way to stop them and then offered an alternative I could respect that and consider your perspective but if you are going to suggest there is no real threat then I have to assume you are completely insane and your just echoing some political rhetoric you heard hoping to sound like you have something to offer the discussion.

Depends. When you say "Al Queda intends to kill all...", what exactly do you mean by 'Al Queda'?

[Testiculese]

Uh, Tiger, I'd say 1/4 of them are here already.

[TIGERassault]

Uh, Tiger, I'd say 1/4 of them are here already.

Bums! Rumbled!

[Ferno]

DYK: Al Qaeda means \"the toilet\"

[woodchip]

Tiger do you remember the first attempt to fell the WTC? The one that failed and AQ said they would keep trying until they succeed? I would suggest very strongly you do not make a trip to view the white house as a future vaction. AQ says they're going to destroy something, I will take them very seriously.

Oh and their first try may very well have been the 9/11 plane that wound up in a field.

[Shadowfury333]

As it turns out TB you are absolutelt correct. News this morning after the big "Lets pull out of Iraq and we can negotiate demoscammer win" we have from AQ is they have 12 thousand fighters willing to die with the destruction of the White House as their stated goal. When they do I hope it is filled with the liberal democratic hardcore. Perhaps then they will wake up.

Hmm, in that event I assume that you guys would just rebuild it and elect 200 or new congresspeople and senators. I mean, it's not the first time that the White House has been destroyed. Mind you, when we did it, we only burned it down, we didn't blow it up(War of 1812).

[Will Robinson]

Testi, not even close. Bush Sr. was a late comer to the game. Believe it or not, if you're looking for the american president who poked the stick into the islamo-fascist hornets nest and gave them a big recruiting program it's Jimmy Carter.
That's right!
That loveable little house building peanut farming democrat from Georgia who never resists the urge to point at republicans as the war mongoring aggitators of all the worlds troubles is the american president most responsible for stirring up the father of the modern islamofascism movement, one Abdullah Azzam.

From chapter one, book two of Terry McDermotts

excellent book Perfect Soldiers:

***************************************************************

The Rebirth of Jihad
Peshawar

In July 1973, In Kabul Afghanastan, Daoud Khan led a bloodless coup that overthrew his cousin, the King of Afghanastan, who was vacationing in europe at the time. Daoud installed a new government controlled by his Afghan Communist Party. Although it seemed of little import outside Afghanastan at the time, the coup precipitated three decades of almost ceaseless warfare that eventually drew nearly the entire planet into its orbit. Daoud was himself deposed, and killed, in a second coup five years later. After that coup produced yet another the next year, this one accompanied and followed by waves of violence and bloodletting, the place seemed to be spinning out of control. More to the point it seemed in danger of falling out of the grasp of its near nieghbor to the north, the Union of soviet Socialists Republics. airborne commandos from the USSR landed in Kabul in 1979, the heralds of an armed force that eventually numbered 100,000. The government was over thrown again and a new one installed. The Soviets spent the next decade fighting with what became, in effect, the last stand of the empire.
Their outright invasion into Afghanastan was widely condemned throughout the community of nations, but no where with the vehemence expressed in the Muslim world, where it was regarded as a direct assault on Islam, one that required a direct response. the herald of that response was a Palestinian named Abdullah Azzam.

Azzam born in 1941 in Jenin on the West Bank, was a product of the Palestinian diaspora, steeped in Islamic learning and politics. He answered his first call to battle in the 1967 Six-Day War, after which he joined the Palestinian resistance, and later left because it was, he said, merely a political cause insufficiently rooted in Islam. He joined the Islamic Brotherhood and later helped found Hamas as an Islamic alternative to the Palestinian Liberation Orginazation. He resumed an academic career that earned him degrees in Jordan and Damascus and eventually a Ph.D. from Cairo's Al Azhar, the high temple of Islamic learning.

When the USSR invaded Afghanastan in 1979, azzam was among the first non-Afghan muslim sympathizers to join the cause against the Soviets. He came at once to Pakistan, initially to the capital Islamibad. When that proved to far distant the battlefield he moved his base to Peshawar, a capital of Pakistans Northwest Frontier Province, a land governed chiefly by fear and high-caliber ammunition. there, Azzam found his cause: Afghanastan would be the incubator for a new muscular Islam, a religion of warriors like that of the Prophet's time. The core texts of the standard modern Islamist creed had already been written by Egyptians Hasan al-Bana and Sayid Qutb, one the founder and the other the great populizer of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Remaking old teachings for the modern world, they sought the imposition of Islamic law in their native Egypt and any other country that pretended to be Muslim. To achieve their ends they, they insisted on violent revolt in the name of god, against the unfaithful and against apostate Muslim regiems.
Their insurgency was greeted with fierce, deadly, and largely effective repression within Egypt. Because of the response it remained mainly theoretical and contained within the intellectual elites until Afghanastan.

There Bana saw a real chance to make real the abstract promises of Qutb and Bana, to fight an unequivocal battle for Islam and, in doing so, to recover their virtue. \"One of the most important lost obligations is the forgotten obligation of fighting\" he said. \"Because it is absent from the present condition of the Muslims, they have become as rubbish of the flood waters.\"
Jihad, Azzam wrote, wasthe way of everlasting glory, and the only way to get there was behind the barrel of a gun. \"jihad and the rifle alone: no negotiations, no conferences, and no dialogues,\" he said.
Azzam, more than any man popularized the modern-and, within its world, triumphant-notion of the contemporary Muslim's duty to wage holy war. the goal was no less than to ressurect the reign of Islam on Earth and it's imperative was universal. It was a duty, Azzam said, that commanded all Muslims to its banner. He quoted the Qur'an:

'Then, it is obligatory upon the whole of creation to march out for jihad. If they fail to respond, then they are in sin....The light, the heavy, the riding, the walking, the slave, and the free man shall all go out. Whoever has a father, without his permission and whoever has not a father, until Allahs religion prevails, defends the territory and the property, humiliates the enemy and resques the prisoners. On this there is no disagreement. What does he do if the rest stay behind? He finds a prisoner and pays his ransom. He attacks by himself if he is able, and if he is not he prepares a warrior.'

SNIP/ ------- ------- -------/SNIP

Even beforethe Soviet invasion, a civil war had been underway. The soviet purpose was to change one puppet government for another, one they hoped would be more palatable to the Afghans yet still compliant to Moscow. Domestic opponents of the government-in particular, those who thought it lacked Islamic purity-had already begun establishing exile orginazations based in Peshawar. After the invasion, the number of those orginazations-not to mention exiles-mushroomed. In the beginning, most of these groups were underfunded or not funded at all, and survived mainly on what they could steal or conscript. But funding more bountiful than anyone could have imagined soon arrived. By the middle of the 1980's more than $1 billion per year was pouring into the resistance. Sorting out the varied Afghan opposition was almost an impossible task, but sorting out who would get the money was imperative. A hierarchy was constructed at the insistance of the sponsors, mainly the United States, Saudi Arabia and, especially, Pakistan. the Pakistani's who regarded themselves as the general staff of the war effort, designated six Afghan political parties to recieve the money and later added a seventh. All were fundamentalist religious parties and all eventually fielded seperate armies.

As the geographic headquarters of the resistance, Peshawar naturally became the destination for those from beyond Afghanastan who wished to join it. Largely through efforts by Azzam, thousands of muslims came to join the Afghans in holy war against the heathen Communists.
Azzam internationalized the jihad. He worked tirelessly-and globally- as a recruiter. He traveled to Europe and throughout the Middle East and made several trips to the United States, raising money, and at least theoretically, an army to fight the jihad. Funded by donations mainly from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states but with contributions from around the globe, he opened recruiting offices in thirty countries, including the United States. his writings were not intellectual treatises, but pure agit-prop; Tom Payne not John Locke. his activities in the United States were endorsed by the American government, which chose to ignore its content while activiely promoting its results.
The United States was one of the main allies of Afghan resistance. President Jimmy Carter had earlier confronted the Soviet Union in his human rights campaign and his national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, was eager to confront them with surrogates on the battlefield as well.
Acting on Brzezinski's recommendation, Carter had approved American financial and military assistance to the Afghan resistance even before the soviet invasion. Brzezinski said the express intent of the secret assistance was to encourage Soviet intervention, which of course it did. The Afghan resistance, Pakistan, Azzam, and the Americans were joined in their unlikely alliance by Saudi Arabia, which provided hard cash and volunteers.
\"Muslim governments made it a religious issue, a way to reinvigorate Islam, to counter Western cultural invasion, to counter Iran and the Shiite threat to the Sunnis,\" said Waheed Hamza Hashim, a Saudi political scientist \"so here comes the Soviet invasion in the midst of this. The Arab world see's itself under siege. the governments main legitimacy derives from religious authority. they see this as an opportunity to strengthen their religious credentials, thereby strengthening their political authority.

SNIP/----------/SNIP

Among the first of those to answer Azzams call was a former student of his from Jeddah, Ossam bin Laddin,.....


********************************************************

So there you have it folks, the rebirth of militant Islam was forged in the fires kindled by Jimmy Carter meddling in the affairs of a foreign country. Bet you never hear the \"mainstream media\" discuss this, they will be too busy making sure all you youngsters believe as Testi does, that all war mongoring and all the meddling that brings us terrorists is perpetrated by republicans.
Heh!
The biggest threat to our democracy is the awol free press!

[Ford Prefect]

Actually Will I think you need to back a bit farther than just Jimmy Carter to find the roots of the conflict that is now the cause celebre in the U.S. I just completed The House of War by James Caroll
http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/cat ... ber=688084
Not an easy read or a perfect book but quite a good review of the politics of war in the U.S. from 1943 to today.

[Will Robinson]

Actually Will I think you need to back a bit farther than just Jimmy Carter to find the roots of the conflict that is now the cause celebre in the U.S. I just completed The House of War by James Caroll
http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/cat ... ber=688084
Not an easy read or a perfect book but quite a good review of the politics of war in the U.S. from 1943 to today.

Oh I know this wasn't the start of militant Islam but it was the start of the al Queda era. bin Laddin built al Quedas foundation from the remnants of his Afghan jihad buddies as that conflict ended, including murdering his immediate boss who wanted to just go home and relax. bin Laddin wanted to carry on the jihad so he didn't want the boss to retire the team, so he killed the boss so he could inherit the team and press on...
I was mostly addressing the charge, and common talking point of the left, that Bush is the cause of the big recruiting when in fact Bush is just the most recent face on the al Queda locker room chalkboard. the recruitment in the '80's was much bigger than anything Bush or Iraq has caused.

Thanks for the link by the way, that book looks very interesting!

[Ford Prefect]

I know what you mean Will. I remember the images of Jimmy Carter's face on posters being walked on by Irani radicals.
If you get a chance to read House of War you will enjoy it. Very well researched and written by an ex-priest who's father was the first head of the OSI. The thing that struck me was how the names of those behind the scenes stay the same for decades even as the name of the President changes. They create the current that the president, Congress and Senate either float along in or oppose and attempt to swim against.

[Repo Man]

*head 'splodes*

That's because every person I have encountered who refers to GB2 (George Bush II) as a Fascist or Hitler does not have the foggiest idea what they're talking about.

[Testiculese]

I know, Will, I was referring to the planning of WTC. We started our crap in the 40's, and haven't even pretended to stop.

[Dakatsu]

So there you have it folks, the rebirth of militant Islam was forged in the fires kindled by Jimmy Carter meddling in the affairs of a foreign country.

Yes, I believe we should stop meddeling in foreign countries. How about this little one called Iraq?

[Will Robinson]

So there you have it folks, the rebirth of militant Islam was forged in the fires kindled by Jimmy Carter meddling in the affairs of a foreign country.

Yes, I believe we should stop meddeling in foreign countries. How about this little one called Iraq?

OK so we leave Iraq. But what do you think we should do when these foreign countries send suicide bombers and other terrorists into our country and our allies countries to blow us up?
Do we keep following the U.N.'s model of endless, useless talks and resolutions that are never backed up with action combined with changing our customs to be less offensive to the militant islamic bastards who are sponsoring these attacks?

It's easy to say "We shouldn't go piss them off" but what do you propose we do when they are attacking us anyway?

[Shadowfury333]

It's easy to say "We shouldn't go piss them off" but what do you propose we do when they are attacking us anyway?

Don't we piss them off just by being, though? Or, at least, by being free in our choice of actions, words, belief systems, etc.?

[Will Robinson]

It's easy to say "We shouldn't go piss them off" but what do you propose we do when they are attacking us anyway?

Don't we piss them off just by being, though? Or, at least, by being free in our choice of actions, words, belief systems, etc.?

Exactly the question that is ignored by the left. They prefer to only examine the situation as far as they need to fabricate some rhetorical ammunition to fire up their base with. They take one small aspect of the collision of our two cultures and tell their ignorant voters "See! If we would just get out of there we wouldn't have these terrorists! the republicans are creating terrorists by getting involved over there!"

When the truth is the radical islamic whacko's aren't just preaching hatred towards us because we support Israel or attacked Saddam, they also preach hatred because our women vote and attend school and wear bikini's and we don't pray to Allah and we gamble and do drugs and loan money...etc. etc.

The left isn't looking for solutions they are looking for political power. Of course the right does it too in other ways on other issues but at least on this issue the right is taking the proper approach to challenge radical Islam. If it didn't serve them politically to promote that line of action they probably wouldn't pursue it either. I have no faith in either political party to have pure motives anymore, the system we created has made the party come first, both side rationalize all sorts of bad policy simply to gain power for the party. They will both tell you that they need to make those compromises to get in power in order to be able to fix anything but once they get the power they don't fix anything they just keep making compromises to retain power!

[woodchip]

It's easy to say "We shouldn't go piss them off" but what do you propose we do when they are attacking us anyway?

Don't we piss them off just by being, though? Or, at least, by being free in our choice of actions, words, belief systems, etc.?

That is true but now the Islamnofascist have reason to not tweak our nose. They lost Afghanistan by doing so and they will maybe lose Iraq (depending on how the newly empowered Dems try to control things). Terrorist, like any other group of people, need a place to operate out of with some sort of protection by the local govt.
Governments that may sympathise with them for now will at least think twice about allowing them use of their country. Smart terrorist will play to the liberals of this country in hopes the feminisation of America proceeds to the point where we are unable and unwilling to defend ourselves that they (terrorist) can start setting up Sadr City like enclaves here. What better place to stage your operations than the heart of your target.

[Will Robinson]

As long as Iran and Syria are as they are now there will never be a shortage of terrorists. It's nice if we end up leaving Afghanistan as an unlikely sanctuary for terrorist operations but I'm not buying it and Iraq will become Iran West if we pull out anytime soon.

right now, with the current administrations failure to go balls to the wall in both places it seems to me they applied their half hearted measures backwards. They should have swept into Iraq, found Saddam and pulled out quickly so his underlings could retain the Bath party stranglehold on the religious nutbag population and continued to be a thorn in Irans side instead of us staying long enough to destroy that Sunni power and then leave so the Shiite's could take over. And in Afghanistan we should have stayed longer and in greater force to prevent the return of the Taliban and possibly increased our odds of trapping bin Laddin.

I'm one hell of a Monday morning quarterback, if you ever find a war that can be re-run so adjustments can be made with the full benefit of hindsight let me know and I'll win it for you

Of course if we would actually go in balls to the wall and kill lots more people instead of tip toeing around it would take them decades to have the courage to come out against us and we'd at least have some degree of success in implementing a secular form of government in Iraq instead of just fiddling about like the geo-political Uncle Ernie left in charge of poor little Tommy for a night.

[roid]

*head 'splodes*

That's because every person I have encountered who refers to GB2 (George Bush II) as a Fascist or Hitler does not have the foggiest idea what they're talking about.

actually it's coz this thread - like every single one of Thunderbunny's threads - is a ★■◆●ing joke and i was playing along.

if you think it's serious, then hey knock yourself out i won't stop you

KILL ALL MUSLIMS WOOOHOOO!!

[woodchip]

Hands Roid a Tums.

[roid]

?