Definitely NOT getting MS Vista

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:08 pm

well, back to word processing with Linux.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:46 pm

This is a bit of a stretch, but I think this all might be MS trying to push gaming out of the PC market. The reasons are obvious.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:58 pm

Linux Screenshots!

Ooh, pretty.

The Lion · Post by **The Lion** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:44 pm

Nosferatu wrote:http://www.theregister.com/2006/10/29/m ... _analysis/

Ah damn, Nossy, you beat me to it.

I read it and it's horrifying. It's going to be everyone's problem at least
indirectly, for various reasons - the security implications, people you know
who are locked into windows for whatever reason, ... the usual stuff actually.
It will all get worse for everyone no matter what operating system and other
software they use.

"Merry Christmas" is going to sound especially sarcastic now.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:07 am

I can just imagine a tech call:

\"I changed my videocard after replacing a motherboard that went bad... and now Vista won't boot!\"

\"I'm sorry sir, you'll have to buy a new copy\"

\"Screw that, I'm getting a refund!\"

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:55 am

geeze, is Microsoft completely outof control?

I'm trying to think of anything in Microsoft's way, and i can think of nothing. They will get away with this, and more. You're all powerless to stop them.

The Lion · Post by **The Lion** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:55 am

roid wrote:I'm trying to think of anything in Microsoft's way, and i can think of nothing.

Money.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:14 pm

Money is not in MS's way.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:11 pm

roid wrote:I'm trying to think of anything in Microsoft's way, and i can think of nothing. They will get away with this, and more. You're all powerless to stop them.

The best you can do is keep Microsoft out of your way.

The Lion · Post by **The Lion** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:53 pm

Testiculese wrote:Money is not in MS's way.

Of course not. But they always want more of it.

Jeff250 wrote:The best you can do is keep Microsoft out of your way.

The best we can do is try to keep Microsoft out of our way...

Topher · Post by **Topher** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:00 pm

Wait for it...wait for it....

http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windo ... terms.aspx

BA-ZING!!!

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:58 pm

Good news for Vista users who have any intent of upgrading their machines, but I'm still skeptical about the handicapped license being just an oversight of Microsoft's well-paid legal team. They only reverted because they were forced to.

roid · Post by **roid** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:29 pm

neat, they_fixed one_of the_most serious_problems.
so, are they gonna go fix everything ELSE that's wrong with it?

i doubt it.

Nosferatu wrote:http://www.theregister.com/2006/10/29/m ... _analysis/

The Lion · Post by **The Lion** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:37 am

Mán... did you_read some_of the comments_on that_blog?

\"Oh, thank_you, Micro$oft! You're so_great! Thank_you for doing_the
right_thing! Everyone_is_happy! Brïlliant, brilliant_move! Then_again,
I didn't expect_anything_less.\"

No, but_you didn't_expect_anything more either, did_you?

Note_that they_only changed_clause_15a, \"Software_Other_than_Windows
Anytime_Upgrade\". The other_clauses of section_15 (and 16) did not
chànge_.

And_yeah, don't_forget_to read_the rest_of that_EULA as_well.

(Silly_accents_and_other_twists_added_because_of_wordlist_bug...)

Nosferatu · Post by **Nosferatu** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:22 am

Topher wrote:Wait for it...wait for it....

http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windo ... terms.aspx

BA-ZING!!!

One_good_deed
(which_is_nothing_more_than_a_clarification_of_the_original_intent_anyway)
does_not_makeup_for_dozens_of_bad_ones_over_the_period_of_20_years,
starting_with_the_Win3.1_on_DR-DOS_fiasco_and_steadily_getting_worse_from_there.

Vista_is_still_going_to_be_slopping_over_with_DRM.
Its_still_going_to_have_WPA_which_must_call_home
so_MS_can_record_a_hash_code.
They_will_still_be_leaving_the_"benchmark"_limitations_in_the_EULA.
They_will_still_be_dragging_their_feet_with_the_other_antivirus_companies_about_interoperability,
in_hopes_they_will_just_go_away.
They_will_still_be_privately_thumbing_their_noses_at_open_standards.

Nope,_I'm_never_touching_Vista._(or_even_XP_for_that_matter)

TIGERassault · Post by **TIGERassault** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:06 pm

Hmm...
Well, if you ask me, that ELUA just seems fair, to me anyway.

But I think I'll stick with XP for the time being, purely because it takes up less of the CPU.

Nosferatu · Post by **Nosferatu** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:18 pm

Nosferatu wrote:One_good_deed
(which_is_nothing_more_than_a_clarification_of_the_original_intent_anyway)
does_not_makeup_for_dozens_of_bad_ones_over_the_period_of_20_years,
starting_with_the_Win3.1_on_DR-DOS_fiasco_and_steadily_getting_worse_from_there.

Hmmm. Lets make that a couple dozen + 1.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35525

"All your OS are belong to us."

The Lion · Post by **The Lion** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:41 pm

TIGERassault wrote:Well, if you ask me, that ELUA just seems fair, to me anyway.

FAIR??! How can you ever consider such an agreement to be "fair"?

(*** Rant alert ***)

Microsoft is completely bent on conquering the digital world by
restricting its users, stifling competition, and harming innovation,
since that is the only way its "products" can possibly beat others' on
the market. It does everything it can to force (making deals with
hardware manufacturers) or buy (giving out "free" windows copies to
e.g. schools in 3rd world countries, or offering discounts to e.g.
governments so long as they stick with Microsoft) itself onto as many
computer systems as possible.

It spreads propaganda to gain and retain the favor of ignorant people
because it does not have any other way of doing so, and FUD and lies to
keep them afraid of free software and open source, the only competition
they can't take down so easily. Also, it does everything it can to keep
them from thinking about DRM and these kind of software licenses. When
was the last time you heard anything about "trusted computing"?

Oh, and let's not forget freedom either - the last thing Microsoft would
want anybody to think of, especially in the context of software. Why do
you think they only talk about "open source", and never "free software"?
Open source is not about freedom.

Microsoft (and actually many more companies - M$ is just the biggest
example) wants you to think this is just "fair"...

roid · Post by **roid** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:45 pm

i'm glad you had that disclaimer at the end, coz i was about to say: this isn't just Microsoft, it's the nature of Capitalism to try to prevent the slaves from voting with their feet.

TIGERassault · Post by **TIGERassault** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:26 am

The Lion wrote:
TIGERassault wrote:Well, if you ask me, that ELUA just seems fair, to me anyway.
FAIR??! How can you ever consider such an agreement to be "fair"?

(*** Rant alert ***)

Microsoft is completely bent on conquering the digital world by
restricting its users, stifling competition, and harming innovation,
since that is the only way its "products" can possibly beat others' on
the market. It does everything it can to force (making deals with
hardware manufacturers) or buy (giving out "free" windows copies to
e.g. schools in 3rd world countries, or offering discounts to e.g.
governments so long as they stick with Microsoft) itself onto as many
computer systems as possible.

It spreads propaganda to gain and retain the favor of ignorant people
because it does not have any other way of doing so, and FUD and lies to
keep them afraid of free software and open source, the only competition
they can't take down so easily. Also, it does everything it can to keep
them from thinking about DRM and these kind of software licenses. When
was the last time you heard anything about "trusted computing"?

Oh, and let's not forget freedom either - the last thing Microsoft would
want anybody to think of, especially in the context of software. Why do
you think they only talk about "open source", and never "free software"?
Open source is not about freedom.

Microsoft (and actually many more companies - M$ is just the biggest
example) wants you to think this is just "fair"...

Yes, fair.
Now, are you going to continue ranting, or are you going to try and say why this ELUA isn't fair?

FunkyStickman · Post by **FunkyStickman** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:51 am

Whether or not the EULA is fair isn't the issue. They have a right to make it say whatever they want, and you have the right to buy it or not. As long as people put up with it by saying \"Well, I don't have any other choice\" then they (Microsoft) will win. Exercise your freedom. Buy a Mac, or learn how to use Linux. If you don't like it, there are other choices.

Just my two cents' worth.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:32 pm

The problem with that Funky is that you have to buy the software BEFORE you can read the EULA. yeah, I know, you can go on-line and read it before buying it, but come on; how many people REALLY do that? Or even worry about it?.

Most of the time EULA's are just the general, \"This is our stuff, no copying, reverse engineering or re-selling blah blah blah.

Not, \"we'll take your first born if you get too confident and change out your machine more than once.\"

I don't agree that they have the right to say \"whatever they want\". There are legal boundaries that must be obeyed and right now (after 20 years no less) we are STILL trying to define what those are. MS seems to enjoy finding loop holes in those laws or just plain ignoring them.

The Lion · Post by **The Lion** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:24 am

Yeah, breaking the law (antitrust in particular) tends to gain them
more than it costs them, so they do it anyway.

And to be clear, when I called the EULA unfair, I meant that it is fully
aimed at maximizing Microsoft's power over the user, at the expense
of the user's rights.

This gains them more money than it loses them in terms of customer
dissatisfaction, because most of them are locked into windows anyway.

As I mentioned before, it's all about money.

FunkyStickman · Post by **FunkyStickman** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:27 pm

These are good points... when I say \"They can put in anything they want\" that's preceeded with \"as long as it's not illegal:\"

I particularly despise MS for their horribly Orwellian business practices. However, I despise them most for the little things:

Gaping security holes, vulnerabilities that they refuse to fix. Forcing you to re-register if you change too much hardware. Crippling your computer if you decide NOT to activate. Hiding suspicious things from the end user, giving out your personal information to people within MS (and others, I'm sure). Forcng everybody in your network to upgrade Office to read your documents. Limiting the number of data connections you can make to a PC. Limiting the number of capture cards you can put in it. Telling you what you can and can't install. The crashes, istable drivers, inconsistancies of GUIs.

Need I go on? I really didn't mean to crap all over this thread... but I really really hate Microsoft. If I had my won software business, I wouldn't want the government telling me what to do or how to run it... but they're basically taking every inch they can get. WIth a company that size, you almost have to take all the loopholes you can find to remain profitable. I don't approve of it, and I think it's immoral to take advantage of consumers and the market, but that's the truth. They're doing it every day. If they didn't, they wouldn't have a chance... their product is second-rate, at best.

But the OS wars never were about what's best, just what's profitable.

roid · Post by **roid** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:48 pm

I really really hate Microsoft. If I had my won software business, I wouldn't want the government telling me what to do or how to run it... but they're basically taking every inch they can get. WIth a company that size, you almost have to take all the loopholes you can find to remain profitable.

if maintaining a constrictive and aggressive monopoly is their only way to remain profitable, then they should die.

the courts seem to agree - thus why MS is always in trouble with them.

Since so much of MS's direction seems to be targeted towards maintaining that monopoly at all costs - are they really primarily in the software business? They seem MORE interested in maintaining monopoly than in creating useful software.
Can anyone venture a name for this phenomonon?

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:16 pm

Repo Man wrote:
Topher wrote:extremely rich features
I just got back from a "Strategic Design Review" (read: dog and pony show) at Microsoft's Platform Adoption Center for their new web programming stuff (Atlas, IE7, etc). I must have heard that phrase "extremely rich features" used about twenty times by each speaker. There were about six speakers each day for three days--do the math yourself.

Please remove that phrase from your vocabulary when posting here. If I hear you use that Microsoft-speak
one more time, I will NOT be responsible for my actions!

Extremely rich features...barf!

DRM, Trusted Computing, (for the Manufactuers not you), huge system resources requirements, upgrade upgrade!, pretty well the same stuff with more bloatware, more bugs, no drivers, whats not to like?

Ok after using IE7 for a while I ditched it for Mozilla Firefox, faster, better, safer.

I've installed P2P and blocked every addy I could see that was dialling home, I've shut off all the services that I don't need. My spyware hits have dropped to one a browsing session.

I now can reliably stream my DVD files wirelessly with my P3 550, 512 Mb Ram... before I was getting hooked up to a dozen servers of Microsoft's choice even though I unchecked the supposed "options" in the Privacy Tab, that alone swamped my bandwidth and caused stutters and hangs with my system.

I no longer use Windows update, they kept re-installing the crap I removed even if I manually removed the updates that contained the offending DLL's.

I've been playing with Linux on Live CD's and I have to say they are getting very close to making an OS that everyone can use. Linux has helped me recover Data from HD's that Windows could no longer read, crack Windows security to retrieve User's passwords, and speed up my Network.

Open Office allows me to read and convert from almost any platform. Frankly Microsoft's products don't do that much for me and seem overpriced compared to the performance I get with the aforementioned apps.

My 2¢

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:26 am

Nosferatu wrote:Oh it will accomplish something else Krom.

It will make alot more people want to try Linux/Wine.

I just went through installing Linux (again) and I severely doubt that.

Nosferatu · Post by **Nosferatu** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:38 am

You cant deny that the fence sitters who have never tried Linux before will start thinking about it.

JMEaT · Post by **JMEaT** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:41 pm

I currently have no issues with MS or Windows. I will be getting Vista for my main rig. Who knows my opinion may change... Every new version of Windows has sparked a bit of controversy. In the end it settled down for the most part.

Microsoft can say whatever they want with a EULA to a certain legal point (An example of how to end up in court with a EULA). But everyone still has the opportunity to not purchase the software.

I am an enthusiast, I build machines and upgrade frequently. A pretty big handful of Windows users are enthusiasts (Of course the majority make up businesses, government and schools) If Microsoft makes a change to dent the enthusiast market, it will just be a matter of time before game manufactures, etc catch on and begin coding for alternative OS's. Or MS begins to notice a drop in profit margins and accommodates. (From what we’ve seen with the Vista EULA revision already.)

I seriously doubt MS will hold its tight grip on the OS market forever. One day we may look back and say, gee I remember Windows ... they made their EULA's FUBRAR and that's when \"insert new OS manufactures name here\" came in and offered good competition.

And I am thinking of getting a machine at work here running Ubuntu Linux just to see what it’s about.

http://www.ubuntu.com/

*edited*

Admiral LSD · Post by **Admiral LSD** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:28 pm

Ubuntu is good if you just want to say you run Linux, it falls hard when you actually try and do real stuff with it.

JMEaT · Post by **JMEaT** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:29 pm

Admiral LSD wrote:Ubuntu is good if you just want to say you run Linux, it falls hard when you actually try and do real stuff with it.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

I'm a Linux newb so I need a version with training wheels for a bit.

/end semi off topic

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:02 pm

Nuthin wrong with that, LSD. There are a lot of users out there that don't need to take over the world. We just want a different option. And there's nothing with a OS/GUI being user friendly. Of course it's not \"hard core\" or \"old sk00l\", but then I don't need testosterone in my computer.

Really though. like I said; not everyone needs to how it all works.

Moon · Post by **Moon** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:39 am

Check out this Userfriendly angle on Vista

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20061103
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20061104
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20061106
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20061108

and this

http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html

all of which I completely agree with.

I'm really considering moving to OS X from XP...

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:25 am

Admiral LSD wrote:Ubuntu is good if you just want to say you run Linux, it falls hard when you actually try and do real stuff with it.

Clarify? I'm getting by just fine.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:21 am

you're not \"1337\" if you use ubuntu. You're just a linux \"poser\".

[]V[]essenjah · Post by **[]V[]essenjah** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:06 am

What this all really comes down to in the end for me is this:

1. Some of us, actually spend sometimes years saving every penny we can and studying up on new technology to build a system that has exactly what WE need that actually runs stable. I find it rare anymore that a piece of hardware will run unquestionably stable by default settings and components. It is rare to find anything that is well-built anymore. Many store-bought PC's that I have fiddled with in the local PC repair shop I work for, have had all kinds of issues, in particular heating issues. New video cards within the GeForce 7 series have many heating issues that aren't totally resolved without replacing the heatsink and fan with alternative cooling devices, yet they go ahead and release the GeForce 8 series with far greater heating issues and require their own power supply.

2. Some of us do not like to harbor virii or spyware that bog down our machines. No matter how MS tries to boast about how much better their security is, it will always be cracked. Some of us like to re-install windows a couple times a year just to clean things up and make the system run better. Paranoid? Maybe, but we are safe. These re-installations for me are just as important for re-organizing my files and just making everything run in tip-top shape on occasion.

3. Some of us, like upgrades that don't involve replacing our entire computer. Fixing a problem or upgrading, doesn't always mean, replacing your PC. That is only for the average sucker that has too much money to spend. Some of us don't have the money option so we deal with what we have and upgrade what we can. Lets say, I buy an AM2 board right now but in a year I want an AM3 processor? Do I buy a new PC and a new copy of Vista? Wouldn't it be smarter to save some money and just buy the new CPU some DDR3 memory and call it a day?

4. Some of us have jobs that involve repairing PC's such as myself. If we can't restore or re-install Vista, the money involved in purchasing multiple copies could cause a world of money troubles for PC repair shops I would imagine as now we have to purchase multiple copies of the OS for the customers. This is very expensive and without a shop like the one I work for, the town has no alternative but to buy a new PC.

5. I imagine that support for XP will eventually be shut down. If said happens, there is no other alternative other than Linux and that OS is a HUGE pain to use unless you are a programmer that likes to fiddle with things as apposed to actually getting your work DONE.

And this: my friends, is what it all comes down too.

I won't purchase something because of \"Ooooh, look at teh purdy graficks....\" (misspelling intentional), I will purchase it for practicality, purpose, and use.

I don't care about what MS considers, \"Extremely Rich Features.\" It looks to me like Microsoft is only thinking about their extremely rich wallets.

If more games are supported by Linux and Linux will support DX10 at some point, I'm game to give it another try over this crap.

They should at least allow us to re-install their software once or twice every six months. I would be fine with that. This is an outstanding joke.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:53 am

Duper wrote:This is utter BS.

Description
Microsoft has once again sparked controversy over its new operating system, Vista, with a change in its licensing terms which will allow owners of retail copies of Vista to only transfer their software to a new machine once. If they will need to move the OS a second time they will need to buy an additional copy.

Microsoft users have been quick to criticize the company for its move while many claim that it is precisely this attitude towards the consumer by Microsoft that will work as an incentive for hackers to work extra long hours to crack the new OS.

The company is also coming under fire from security companies due to competitive concerns. Many had planned to voice their opinions in a planned meeting with Microsoft. Unfortunately the MS Live Meeting technology used for the conference crashed 15 minutes after the meeting started. Some of the big players like Symantec and McAfee were unable to log back on.

The troubled OS has been met with skepticism from consumers while incentives such as games that will only play on the new OS (Halo 2) or the promise of DX10 gaming may not convince people to make the move, especially as long as issues such as DRM and the transfer of the OS remain unclear.
Source

In case you guys missed it -- MS changed par. 15a to

You may uninstall the software and install it on another device for your use.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:12 am

they changed it from a couple of week ago Gren. : )

Repo Man · Post by **Repo Man** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:59 pm

Topher wrote: You're right, it does not make much sense from a technical standpoint. What are you basing your information on?

Krom wrote:I don't know about 32 bit Vista slowing older 32 bit systems to a crawl. Keep in mind I am still using a 32 bit CPU (Athlon XP @ 2.4 GHz). Give Microsoft some credit here, they wouldn't release a version of Vista for 32 bit machines if it didn't run well.

If memory serves me correctly, Windows XP was released in to the general public in 2001. XP runs excruciatingly slow on pre-1999 hardware. Vista, with all the new eye candy and other bells and whistles using up processing resources, will most-likely bog-down older 32-bit-only systems.

It’s like the minimum system requirements for most games: the game will “run well” on a minimum system but so many of the features need to be disabled that purchasing it for that platform becomes pointless.

Repo Man · Post by **Repo Man** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:05 pm

Topher wrote:
Repo Man wrote:
Topher wrote:extremely rich features
Please remove that phrase from your vocabulary when posting here. If I hear you use that Microsoft-speak one more time, I will NOT be responsible for my actions!

Extremely rich features...barf!
My apologies. With DX10's hardcode rockin' features, you should be able to get sweet lookin' graphix just like tha foo.

I do agree that DirectX 10 is a step in the right direction--it will have some hardcode rockin' features.

Definitely NOT getting MS Vista

Re: Definitely NOT getting MS Vista