Some questions about Iraq.

[Isaac]

Straighten me out...
1. Despite the fact that Al Qaeda has been attacking the United States since Clinton, when George W. Bush said he would be tougher on terrorism, in his inauguration speech, do educated people think that caused the WTC attack?
2. We attacked Afghanistan because Al Qaeda attacked the world trade center?
3. And then we attacked Iraq and Saddam Hussein because we had trouble inspecting him?
4. We were searching Saddam Hussein in the first place because we knew he was helping al qaeda?
5. Then we started looking for “weapons of mass destruction” because we thought since Saddam and Al Qaeda were buddies they might share weapons, even if non were used in New York?
6. It’s also true that Saddam Hussein had a safer iraq from terrorists attacks than we do now?
7. Saddam kept Al Qaeda under some control?
8. If Iran has “weapons of mass destruction” will we attack them to?
9. If Al Qaeda has roots in Iran will we attack them?
10. Is it possible Bush confused the two countries, Iran and Iraq?

[Palzon]

1. wHAAAAA? Why do you hate America?
2. In truth, we attacked Afghanistan due to Pearl Harbor.
3. Actually we attacked him because he broke the cardinal rule: \"Don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again.\"
4. Look!!! The Hindenburg!!!
5. No. We checked all our receipts so we knew the Weapons of Mass Destrution were out there somewhere!
6. If you were any other man, I'd kill you where you stand --- !
7. There were no Al Qaeda operatives in Iraq until we made it \"safer\"
8. Praise the Lord and pass the Ammunition!!!
9. ...if we have to plant the roots ourselves!!!
10. Is it possible the pope shits in the woods?

All clear now?

[Palzon]

...

[Bet51987]

1. No. The WTC was attacked because religious Islamic fanatics hate our way of life and the fact that I am decadent and wear a bikini in front of men instead of being locked in my husbands house.....and a thousand other things they hate us for.

...kill those who join other gods wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is gracious, merciful.

2. Yes. The following posters who say Afghanistan was for the oil should study more.

3. Yes. We thought he had dangerous weapons and the warped mind to use them or sell them. We were wrong.

4. No. But he was always upsetting the persian gulf region that could have affected the oil outputs to countries who rely on foreign oil.

5. Yes and No. The severity of 911 presented a list of countries that could not be trusted to try for something bigger.

6. Yes, but could he be trusted not to sell weapons?

7. No. He kept them out of his country but not under any control nor did he have any connection.

8. I hope so. The president of Iran has already stated several times that Israels days are numbered. So, what would you do? . Religous fanatics (all kinds) should not be allowed to develop nukes.

9. \"We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.\" (Remove the words in bold) and you have the message we should live by.

10. No. They were run by fanatics in any event.

Yes, I'm very disturbed today...

Bettina

[TIGERassault]

Look: the easiest way to think about this is that most of the big guys don't care about the little guys if it doesn't benefit them. NEVER expect them to tell you the truth!

And that includes all the stuff about 'they want to attack you because of our culture' and 'they want to use WMD on you because they're cruel and heartless'. No, only the big men on your side have declared these things; I have yet to hear a single Islamist to say these things in regards to themselves.

[Will Robinson]

....I have yet to hear a single Islamist to say these things in regards to themselves.

You aren't listening to bin Ladden and his fellow islamo-fascist clerics then.

[Kilarin]

'they want to attack you because of our culture' and 'they want to use WMD on you because they're cruel and heartless'. No, only the big men on your side have declared these things; I have yet to hear a single Islamist to say these things in regards to themselves.

It's more complex than just "we hate them and everything they are", but that is obviously an element. some quotes below, make of them what you will.

---

"We should fully understand our religion. Fighting is a part of our religion and our Sharia. Those who love God and his Prophet and this religion cannot deny that. Whoever denies even a minor tenet of our religion commits the gravest sin in Islam."

"The pieces of the bodies of infidels were flying like dust particles. If you would have seen it with your own eyes, you would have been very pleased, and your heart would have been filled with joy." -- At the wedding of his son in southern Kandahar about the 17 sailors who died suicide bombing of the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen

God knows it did not cross our minds to attack the towers but after the situation became unbearable and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed -- when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the U.S. Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way (and) to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women.
Osama bin Laden on videotape shown on Al Jazeera, October 29, 2004

If the American government is serious about avoiding explosions inside the U.S., then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1,250 million Muslims.
Osama bin Laden CNN interview 1997

It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities.
Osama bin Laden Answering questions posed by followers at his mountaintop camp in Afghanistan, May 1998

To kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque [Jerusalem] and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.
Osama bin Laden In Fatwa entitled Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders World Islamic Front Statement, February 28, 1998

We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.
Osama bin Laden, November 2001

[Bet51987]

No, only the big men on your side have declared these things

I went to PD to look up your pilot profile because I thought everyone had one there. I wanted to see if there was anything there that would make you say this.

Bee

[TIGERassault]

Usama Bin Laden

Oh right, yeah. I can't believe I forgot about him.

I went to PD to look up your pilot profile

Pardon me when I say this, but what the hell are you talking about?

[Kilarin]

I went to PD to look up your pilot profile

Pardon me when I say this, but what ... are you talking about?

Simple solution to this problem is to go and look. I found the profiles in about 2 clicks.

[TIGERassault]

I went to PD to look up your pilot profile

Pardon me when I say this, but what ... are you talking about?

Simple solution to this problem is to go and look. I found the profiles in about 2 clicks.

That's great, but I still have no idea what you're talking about. At all.

[Bet51987]

I went to PD to look up your pilot profile

Pardon me when I say this, but what ... are you talking about?

Simple solution to this problem is to go and look. I found the profiles in about 2 clicks.

Kilarin, I did too, but I didn't see his profile there. Lots of other Tigers.... but no TigerAssault.

TigerAssualt... I meant nothing bad about it. The statement you made was similar to what someone from the Islamic faith would say and I wanted to check on your profile before putting my foot in my mouth.

Bee

[Kilarin]

That's great, but I still have no idea what you're talking about. At all.

Go to Planet Descent http://www.planetdescent.com/
On the left you see a link called "Pilot Profiles"
click on it.
From there you can use the dropdown box to bring up a profile of any pilot who has bothered to enter one, and you can create one of your own.

Bettina went to Planet Descent to see if your pilot profile said anything about you that might help explain your point of view. You didn't have a profile there, so she didn't learn anything. (I didn't have one either until today)

[Kilarin]

Kilarin, I did too, but I didn't see his profile there. Lots of other Tigers.... but no TigerAssault.

Sorry, I wasn't telling YOU to go look, I was telling TigerAssault that he could figure out what Planet Descent Pilot Profiles were with a few clicks.

[TIGERassault]

TigerAssualt... I meant nothing bad about it. The statement you made was similar to what someone from the Islamic faith would say and I wanted to check on your profile before putting my foot in my mouth.

Bee

Dear god no! Someone has a different point of view! Burn the heretic!

Seriously though, I really don't trust politicians, especially in America where there's such a huge rich-poor divide, to tell the whole story.

[Kilarin]

especially in America where there's such a huge rich-poor divide

Yep, America, the land where the poor have a serious problem with obesity.

[Kiran]

Actually there are several valid reasons that some people are really poor, most of which is their fault. It's those who have trouble getting back on their feet that is the problem with America. Not enough Americans are working together to help those willing to make efforts to not be so poor anymore. But let's not stray too far off topic here.

Saddam is dead, one for our side. I don't think the former dictator's death brings us closer to the end of the war in Iraq. I still do not understand why he has to be executed right away instead of later when they are finished charging him with a bunch of other crimes he had or may had committed. Any inputs?

[Will Robinson]

I still do not understand why he has to be executed right away instead of later when they are finished charging him with a bunch of other crimes he had or may had committed. Any inputs?

Because the middle eastern people tend to seek swift justice instead of waiting until the defendant has sold his second or third book from death row and Greta VanSusteren has beat the story to death on cable...

[Mobius]

1. No. The WTC was attacked because religious Islamic fanatics hate our way of life and the fact that I am decadent and wear a bikini in front of men instead of being locked in my husbands house.....and a thousand other things they hate us for.

Sorry Bet, that's a very naive thing to say. They do NOT hate your way of life. In fact, ALL arabs succumb to the excesses of the west as soon as they get a chance. I know of no exceptions. The fact you can wander round in a bikini has nothing to do with 911. Surely you aren't THAT naive?

I mean, I know you are very young and all - but is this the BS the US is feeding you? If so, then you very clearly have a problem discerning truth from fiction, and you should immediately begin reading Jamie Whyte's "Crimes against Logic" and Laura Penny's "Your call is important to us: The Truth about Bu115h17."

No, the reason for the 911 attacks is the combined results of the last 40 years of really fucked up US Foreign Policy. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Start reading some Naom Chomsky to get up to speed on US Foreign Policy and what your country has done outside its own borders since the second world war. I think you will be suitably horrified.

[Ford Prefect]

Mobius is often an extremist in his views on US foreign policies but I have to agree with him on this Bet. You are falling for the propaganda line when you think that your way of life is the offence. Look at the quotes from Bin Lauden above. He quotes offences in his back yard as his justifications and that is typically the attitude in the mid-east.

[Will Robinson]

bin Laddin also sites: womans rights, banking, gambling, drug use, sexuality, and numerous other practices and behaviors you wouldn't want to give up as, I quote, \"the reason we attacked you\"....
So Bet isn't wrong.

[Kilarin]

bin Laddin also sites: womans rights, banking, gambling, drug use, sexuality, and numerous other practices and behaviors you wouldn't want to give up as, I quote, \"the reason we attacked you\"....

yes. Like I said, its not SIMPLE. He hates us for what we are, AND he hates us for some things we've done. Neither story by itself explains the current situation.

[Testiculese]

the reason for the 911 attacks is the combined results of the last 40 years of really **** up US Foreign Policy

Sad that 90% of the people in my country don't know what 90% of the rest of the world does...

[Bet51987]

Mobius, I don't have the time to read those books, but I do agree with you that there were many other political reasons of why they hate us so your not wrong about that. I know my country is arrogant and I have issues with it too but my reply was from my point of view as a girl.

I posted the following as an argument I had with a Muslim on another board who claimed Islam was peaceful. I got it from Islamweb.net that he proudly put in his signature. You can check it out yourself.

Can I watch television?... (Fatwa 603)... Allah has forbidden the watching of dancing, listening to music, or watching indecent films other than religious programs. A man must supervise what his wife and children watch.

Can I play soccer?....(Fatwa 1490)... Playing with men is forbidden by Allah. You may play only with women and where no man can see you.

Can I go dancing?...(Fatwa 1764)... No. Dancing is unlawful as is music. It is considered shameless by Allah.

Can I go swimming?....(Fatwa 418 and 1777) Yes, as long as no alien man, brother, son, or daughter is able to see you. You must also be covered over the entire body with no flesh showing. A Muslim should fear Almighty Allah.

Can I wear makeup?... (Fatwa 1160) It is prohibited for a woman to go out with makeup except when she is completely covered up. If she is not covering her face then going out with make up is absolutely prohibited.

Can my husband beat me....(Fatwa 4282)... Yes, as long as he does not leave any marks or break her bones.

People in Hell...(Fatwa 311) Most of the inhabitants in hell will be women.

These are just a few of the things that the Taliban and many Islamic fighters fight for. They want nothing more than an Islamic world and they really do hate us for living the way we do.

Bettina

[Chaos Death Saurer]

Straighten me out...
1. Despite the fact that Al Qaeda has been attacking the United States since Clinton, when George W. Bush said he would be tougher on terrorism, in his inauguration speech, do educated people think that caused the WTC attack?
2. We attacked Afghanistan because Al Qaeda attacked the world trade center?
3. And then we attacked Iraq and Saddam Hussein because we had trouble inspecting him?
4. We were searching Saddam Hussein in the first place because we knew he was helping al qaeda?
5. Then we started looking for “weapons of mass destruction” because we thought since Saddam and Al Qaeda were buddies they might share weapons, even if non were used in New York?
6. It’s also true that Saddam Hussein had a safer iraq from terrorists attacks than we do now?
7. Saddam kept Al Qaeda under some control?
8. If Iran has “weapons of mass destruction” will we attack them to?
9. If Al Qaeda has roots in Iran will we attack them?
10. Is it possible Bush confused the two countries, Iran and Iraq?

1. The speech itself? Doubtful. But, it is possible. As far as I know, the extremists did it because they don't like us.

2. Pretty much.

3. More than likely.

4. Saddam's been a pain since Bush #1. We were certain he had WMDs, went to look for them, couldn't find any, and attacked because we thought he was hiding them and wouldn't show. We haven't found any, as far as I know, so we kinda looked stupid. Don't know of any Al Qaeda connection, but I may have missed something.

5. See above.

6. It's entirely possible. I recall no suicide ombings in Iraq pre-war, and post war they're practically daily.

7. As I am unaware of any connection, I can't answer his.

8. I hope not. We're spread too thin, and Iran hasn't done anything with them.

9. We may. If we find that, we may have a new president.

10. I don't think Bush is that stupid.

[Mobius]

Naom Chomsky, Failed States:
\"Senior CIA analyst responsible for tracking Osama bin Laden from 1996, Michael Scheur, writes that 'bin Laden has been precise in telling America the reasons he is waging war on us. None of the reasons have anything to do with our freedom, liberty and democracy, but have everything to do with US policies and actions in the Muslim world.' Scheur notes that \"US forces and policies are completing the radicalisation of the Islamic world, something Osama bin Laden has been trying to do with substantial but incomplete success since the early 1990s. As a result ... it is fair to conclude that the United States of America remains bin Laden's only indispensible ally.\" From his detailed study of Al Queda, Jason Burke draws a similar conclusion. \"Every use of force is another small victory for bin Laden,\" he writes, creating \"a whole new cadre of of terrorists\" for a \"cosmic struggle between good and evil,\" the vision shared by bin Laden and Bush.

[Mobius]

10. I don't think Bush is that stupid.

Oh, I DO think he's that stupid.

But perhaps that is being unfair, and we should give him some credit, and just call him "evil".

Clearly he simply can't be as stupid as the general populace thinks. At least if he is evil, everything he has done makes perfect sense. (Like his current idea of sending ANOTHER 30,000 troops to Iraq - completely contrary to what the country demands, what logic dictates, and what Congress will require.)

However, this isn't the point: even Bush is surrounded by people who are smart enough to tell him the difference.

[Bet51987]

...."a whole new cadre of terrorists" for a "cosmic struggle between good and evil," the vision shared by bin Laden and Bush.

Thats really what its all about isn't it. If you come right down to it, its a struggle between the civilized and the uncivilized. Eloi vs Morlocks, Afghan females held prisoners in their homes, vs American women shopping at a mall. Its not a differnce of culture that separates the mideast with the rest of the world but each others perception of good and evil. And, the fact that Iraq has created new terrorists has little truth. To me, those terrorists were already in schools being taught to hate only instead of being sent to other places there just heading to Iraq. The mideast was always a haven for butchers.

I looked up this Naom Chomsky guy and although he has some points, I don't particularly care for him. He's a socialist with a dark side as one can read here...

http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/ ... homsky.htm

I'm proud to be an American because as I look at the world today, its easy to see where evil truly lies.

Again, just my point of view.

Bettina

[Kiran]

America is just as evil as the rest of the world. Some places are more evil than others, but our country has some really bad people too. We're just lucky that we haven't elected a person that can be \"evil\" enough to do terrible things in his/her power. Besides Nixion. It's still a possibility.

[Bet51987]

America is just as evil as the rest of the world. Some places are more evil than others, but our country has some really bad people too. We're just lucky that we haven't elected a person that can be "evil" enough to do terrible things in his/her power. Besides Nixion. It's still a possibility.

Your statement that America is just as evil as the mideast is surprising. I must be missing something.

Bettina

[TIGERassault]

Your statement that America is just as evil as the mideast is surprising. I must be missing something.

Bettina

Must... resist... posting... rediculously long list...
No... point...... Already... realised...

[Kiran]

Tiger's right.
Bettina. my list of reasons why I made the previous statement is way to long to even start. Let's just say that as Americans, we have our own problems that will be perceived as evil by many people in other countries. And I'm not talking about us having the right to walk around in skanky clothes or wearing make-up in public and being able to work to provide for the family that other countries see as a bad thing. It's so much more than that. In fact, we have the same problems as the rest of the world does, only we're more or less living a lifestyle that is better than most others and they're just jealous of us.
Most of us like to see the image that we're good people fighting for \"freedom\". But it's not real. The only reality is that there are fewer Americans more interested in seeing others live a decent life and doing something about it than those that are not.
Bettina, it is to my understanding that you try to open your mind to things so you can understand where people come from and why they say things. I think you may have turned a blind eye on your own country's doings because of how proud you are of your country. I do understand the pride in our country and I agree with being proud of it. We have done some really good things for the world. But that doesn't mean the good deeds we did keeps us from being bad. We also did terrible things. Understanding our country is a very complicated task. I don't even know how to begin to tell you why our country is the way I said it is. But just to clear things up, I said that America is just as evil as the rest of the world, not as evil as the middle east:P. Besides, the Middle East isn't that bad. It's just that half the people there are crazy and the other half are power-hungry people that just want to be big bullies so they can be feared by all and rule the world. And some peeps there are really good natured people.
Sorry for the long post...

[Kilarin]

Must... resist... posting... rediculously long list...

We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.
Osama bin Laden, November 2001

Yes, America does some evil things. Unquestionably. But there is still a difference between the two sides in this conflict. I think Osama summed that difference up quite well.

There are DEGREES of evil, and Osama and his like are WAY past the US on that scale.

George Bush terrifies me. But I'll go far enough to say that I would FAR rather live in a country that George Bush lead than one controlled by Osama bin Laden or any of those who follow his path.

[Kilarin]

Sorry for the double post, Kiran posted while I was working on my reply.

The only reality is that there are fewer Americans more interested in seeing others live a decent life and doing something about it than those that are not.

I AGREE that the US has its problems. SERIOUS problems. But I think its important to point out that, compared to the rest of the world, we aren't uncaring rich monsters.

http://www.jhu.edu/~cnp/pdf/comptable5_dec04.pdf

From this list you can see that on the "giving" scale, only the people of Israel give a larger percentage of their money for helping others than the US does.

Now, for volunteering time, we aren't so good, and only come in #10, which isn't nearly as good as I would like to see, but really isn't to bad in a list of 34

[Ford Prefect]

I don't think it is right to portray Muslims as hating the lifestyles of the western world.
There are a lot of Muslims in the world and most of them don't hate anything about the US much like most people in the US don't hate anything about them. There is a feeling that the other side is following the wrong set of rules and are misguided but the overwhelming desire for each side is just for the other side to leave them alone.
It is the extremists like OSB and Pat Robertson that keep meddling in each others lives and create such conflict in the world. And a lot of western policy in the mid-east for the last 100 years from Britain, France and more recently the US has been very meddlesome.

[woodchip]

Dear God, it is for some so easy to hate Americas. Especially when they read the diatribes by such hate filled luminaries as the dour Noam Chompatthebitski.
Yes lets hate America for being an ally of Isreal, a country approved and set up by the UN. A country who's people only want to live in peace.
Lets hate America because she sent men and material to Indoneasia for flood relief and her people donated millions of dollars to help people they don't know and some of whom are muslim.
Lets hate America because she aided the muslums who were being raped and killed in the Balkans by the Serbs. Too bad we didn't have someone as president like that dummy Bush 'cause maybe we'd of helped a little earlier on.
Lets hate America when the earthquake hit northern Pakistan and she used her military to get supplies to the suffering muslums there.
Yes, America interfers all over the world and I guess that is reason enough to hate her. The question is, what has Bin Laden done to help the world?

[Bet51987]

....The question is, what has Bin Laden done to help the world?

He brainwashed some posters to hate America...

Bee

[Ford Prefect]

Now don't dump all over me for this Woody 'cause it is not an accusation more an observation.
If someone steals your land and your children's future, kills your kinsmen and defames your religion when they give back a few stolen dollars and call it more that you deserve and you ungrateful it tends not to play as well as you would hope. That is sort of the attitude in the mid-east. They feel they wouldn't need all this help if they had not been driven into poverty by the oppressive hand of the infidels. A gross over simplification of course but it plays well when someone sells it to the masses over there in order to gain political power. It is the sort of thing you hear from Hamas,Hezbolla and Al quaida and it gets eaten up by the general public who there as here tend not to be the most sophisticated of information consumers.
If you are looking for reasons for some of the attitude you hear about over there I'm just offering this as a talking point. I'm not trying to tell you the US has done nothing but evil and should be banished from the earth.
And I'm not sure if I characterize the Israelis as \"A country who's people only want to live in peace.\" I am sure many of their nieghbours wouldn't.

[Kiran]

Eh, I sort of agree with Ford Perfect about the attitudes of the Middle East. It's somewhat understandable that they blame us for part of the reason they were driven into poverty, oppression, and basically a life of fear. I haven't paid that much attention to my World History class in high school but I do remember that the US put Saddam H. in power a few decades ago. What I don't remember if we were alone in putting them there and the other countries supported that or if the US AND a few other countries put Saddam in power. So yeah, we're part to blame for that. At least we tried to do a good thing and it ended up being a very bad deal.

[woodchip]

The US did not put Saddam in power. Saddam put himself in power. America only help Iraq during the Iraq/Iran war.
Also the US had nothing to do with land grabs in the middle east. I suggest one read up on the demise of the Ottoman Empire and see who was involved.
Oh, and Lawrence of Arabia was not American either