No more tears in Heaven?

[Ford Prefect]

Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven
Will it be the same
If I saw you in heaven


Beyond the door
There's peace I'm sure.
And I know there'll be no more...
Tears in heaven

-Eric Clapton

Clapton wrote this about his 4-year-old son Conor, who died when he fell out of a 53rd floor window in New York City. It expresses one of the conundrums of people's expectations of what Heaven will be. If you meet a child you lost to tragedy young will you meet the child who has been held in some kind of arrested development or something else grown from that child's spirit?
Another conundrum: the wife you love as deeply as possible dies young. You never love another as much but you meet a woman that loves you as you loved your first wife. You warm to her, marry have children, die. Who do you live with in Heaven? Surely not a threesome but who's heart is broken?
Life in Heaven cannot be like some imagine, a sort of country club of green hills and a round of golf a day. Or clouds, harps and wings. Or a garden with 72 virgins either. That sort of worldly image ignores the reality of infinite time. In a lifetime of just 100 years we change what we like and want many times. Grow bored of something that was once new and exciting. What happens when you live forever? Billions of years mean nothing to forever. Time enough to grow bored of everything.
Ah I hear you say in the presence of the love of God we are changed and time will have no meaning, our life before will be as nothing as we are taken up in God's love. Or maybe you expect to reach enlightenment and become one with the universe. A condition much the same as the former I would think.

I'm not much of a believer in the afterlife since I haven't seen any evidence for it. I'm not saying there isn't evidence but I haven't seen it personally and so to me it does not exist. What about you? What do you think is \"beyond the door?\"

[Dedman]

Prediction: This thread will go on for at least 4 pages, never really address the original question, and end up as a pointless debate on Creation vs Evolution.

Nice going Ford

[Bet51987]

I don't believe in any God, but there is nothing to say that you won't live again as you may have lived before. It won't be \"you\" but who is to say that in a million years a new you will sense someone holding your hand and spoon feeding you.

Universes, multiverses, energy, time, atoms, dna, time and yet to be discovered particles are endless.

So, the same forces that brought this universe into existence... and you, can do it again and again and again.

Bettina

[Jeff250]

I've always wondered about the \"babies go to heaven\" thing. It's a fairly commonly held belief that they do, but it's unclear to me like you pointed out what exactly there is to go to heaven. When you subtract its body from a baby, what of significance to personal identity is left?

[Duper]

Prediction: This thread will go on for at least 4 pages, never really address the original question, and end up as a pointless debate on Creation vs Evolution.

Nice going Ford

ditto

[dissent]

... What about you? What do you think is "beyond the door?"

I'm sure it is quite beyond imagination, so I don't think about it much.

I do hope they have draft Guinness, tho ...

[Foil]

Excellent thread!

It's a subject I like to talk about, but I'll try to keep this from becoming novel-size.


First, about your question of relationships in heaven, including marriages: My wife and I have talked about this at length a couple of times, even though we actually don't see eye-to-eye on it.

The first thing I think of is that Christ himself was asked the same question (in the form, \"a woman who was widowed and re-married multiple times, who would she be with in heaven?\"). Christ essentially responded with \"things in Heaven don't work that way\". I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I don't think it means that Michelle and I will be strangers or mere acquaintances in heaven. I like to think that it means every relationship will be close, not just the ones we have with our spouse and family. And I don't mean anything like a \"universal mind\", I mean personal relationships, with the uniqueness God gave us, that over eternity can become richer and closer than any we have on earth.


The second thing I think about when talking about heaven is the idea of eternity. It's a concept we can't really grasp as a whole, so I like to think about it in terms of a process that just doesn't ever end.

\"What would we possibly do with eternity\"? I like to think, what can't we do, when there's no limit? Want to spend a few days to just talk with a family member, or take a couple of years to get to know a stranger? Want to take a few decades to explore the farthest stars, or a couple millenia to study the intricacies of life on earth? Doesn't matter, you'll always have just as much time when you get back.

Personally, I look forward to just sitting down with God and asking \"Why?\" about all the things that have plagued or intrigued me, even if it takes me eons to understand the answer. A friend once said her first question might be \"Why mosquitos?\"; it may seem like a dumb first question, but even if it took ages to grasp the answer, she wouldn't have any less time for her other questions!

With eternity, there would be no reason to not do all the things that I've never made the time to do here, such as learning to read music and play my guitar.


The third category (and the last things I'll talk about) when I think of heaven are the Christian images which have heavily influenced common perception of heaven:

\"Streets paved with gold\"/\"mansions\"/\"crowns\"/etc.
- Sometimes it seems like people think of heaven as something akin to a huge luxury resort, where we're all living the \"lifestyles of the rich and famous\". Personally, I don't think that's the point; I believe those images have more to do with beauty and freedom from pain than wealth.

\"Surrounded by glory\"/\"Vast crowds worshipping God on his throne\"
- I've heard Christians talk about heaven as being in a crowd, rapturously singing or praying for ever and ever and ever and ever... like that's all that happens, we just join a collective eternal praise choir. Personally, I can't see it that way at all. God created us with the capacity for personal relationship, so while I imagine there will be times of worship, I think that we will also be able to get to know God and each other on a personal level; talking, playing, laughing, like we do here, but without the threat of pain.

\"St. Peter's lineup at the Pearly Gates\"
- This one is the cheesiest, but by far the most often-used images of heaven in Western culture. Personally, I don't know how God chooses to reveal his mercy and/or judgement, but somehow I don't really see St. Peter as 'the Bouncer'.

[Dakatsu]

I don't know if there is an afterlife, like I don't know if there is a god.

I hope, however, that it is actually close to the Christian heaven (without certain requirements). That of a place of peace forever, I'd like to think that you would meet with others who have passed on. If me and my girlfriend die, I would hope to see her again up in a heaven-like place. We would continue to love eachother for the rest of eternity, ah what a feeling that gives me.

At least this is what I hope happens. As to how everyone will be happy, I have no idea, but I hope it works out.

I don't know if that is what it is, just what I hope it is.

P.S.: Evolutions PWNS 1337 Creationism SuXoRs!!!!111!111one!!!!seventeen!!!!

[Flabby Chick]

The important thing is that no matter what is after death, we are allowed to believe what we want, without fear of recrimination. That wold be quite a cool idea of heaven.


I believe there is nothing (well, actually less than nothing, because even nothing is something).

[Kiran]

I haven't really thought about the afterlife. I didn't concern myself with what happens after death. I think, from my experience when people close to me died, there are quite a few things about the afterlife. Right now, as the wheels in my head is turning, I think that when you die, your soul may visit the ones you love. Then you may either spend time elsewhere, maybe \"heaven\" or \"hell\". After a time, maybe you'll be taken to a womb, where you will be reborn into another world.

How about when you do die, your soul will be in another body elsewhere, waiting to be born. Another chance to live life? Or, we're continuously reborn. You could be the same kind of person you were before.

I don't think there is a place where we go to spend an eternity in the afterlife. I think there is a temporary place to see your loved ones again, or even the loved ones of your past lives that you would remember when you see them. Then you move on. We all have a purpose in life, influencing others as much or as little as possible, setting paths that would change someone's life or change the way the entire world would be. Perhaps the afterlife is the same: Where ever we go after we die, it's because of a purpose. Whether we mean to or not, we're all here for a reason, and whatever we end up in the afterlife, is for a reason.

*edit* When I say from experience, I meant that I've had occasions when it felt like someone was actually here with me, and that it was a certain someone very close to me. Then later on we'd get the phone call saying that certain someone has passed away.

[TIGERassault]

Well, for a Christian belief in heaven, my old religion teacher explained it best;
When you go to heaven, you become eternally happy; you don't get bored, because you're eternally happy; you don't need to go anywhere, because you will be eternally happy (and have no body that needs exercise or any other requirements); you won't feel guilty, or jealous, or lonely, because you'll be eternally happy; and most importantly, you will not be spending eternity with a spouse, because you won't even remember they existed. But you won't care either, because you'll be eternally happy!

Now, if you think any of this is bad, then you don't understand the concept of eternally happy!


But that's my impression of a Christian heaven. Myself, I don't care for if heaven exists or not right now, because I amn't convinced that it exists.

[Duper]

But that's my impression of a Christian heaven. Myself, I don't care for if heaven exists or not right now, because I amn't convinced that it exists.

Trust me.. it's there.

[CDN_Merlin]

But that's my impression of a Christian heaven. Myself, I don't care for if heaven exists or not right now, because I amn't convinced that it exists.

Trust me.. it's there.

How can you say it exists without absolute proof? Without dying and having video proof, you can't prove it.

[Foil]

...my old religion teacher explained it best; When you go to heaven, you become eternally happy;...
and most importantly, you will not be spending eternity with a spouse, because you won't even remember they existed. But you won't care either, because you'll be eternally happy!

A religion teacher said this?

As I tried to say above, God created us as relational beings, so why would happiness involve the removal of relationships?

The way your religion teacher explained it (that happiness in heaven is some kind of "oblivious bliss") completely removes the gifts of uniqueness and relationships that God gave us! It implies that nothing in this life (not even the truly good God-given things) is of any value in heaven.

That makes no sense to me. Why would a God who created us with such uniqueness and a capacity to love others, make heaven a place of unawareness and amnesia? Why does a feeling of happiness mean that relationships are meaningless? It just doesn't fit with the concept of the all-loving Christian God, who created humanity as relational!

In other words, seeing heaven as some kind of heedless blissful feeling misses the point, and utterly ignores the value of our God-given humanity.

[Side note: It makes me wonder, what is it about the quality of your teacher's relationships, that happiness requires forgetting about someone?]

[Dedman]

That makes no sense to me. Why would a God who created us with such uniqueness and a capacity to love others, make heaven a place of unawareness and amnesia?

You can ask him when you get there

Seriously though, is it possible that our nature will change in heaven? Here on earth we are relational beings. Why do we have be the same in heaven?

I don't know the answer, I'm just posing the possibility.

[Jeff250]

But that's my impression of a Christian heaven. Myself, I don't care for if heaven exists or not right now, because I amn't convinced that it exists.

Trust me.. it's there.

How can you say it exists without absolute proof? Without dying and having video proof, you can't prove it.

Especially since faith we all agreed is just the virtue of assenting to something that already had enough merit to be assented to?

[JMEaT]

This is a common question in churches. I have heard many, many different things from, there are no differences in sexes in Heaven (Spirits are neither female nor male), to there being so much love in heaven that it is all the same, to men and women having separate sections and Heaven and do not meet.

What people believe in their hearts is their own business. I guess we'll find out when we arrive. Personally I think along the same lines as Foil mentioned.

[Duper]

But that's my impression of a Christian heaven. Myself, I don't care for if heaven exists or not right now, because I amn't convinced that it exists.

Trust me.. it's there.

How can you say it exists without absolute proof? Without dying and having video proof, you can't prove it.

lol.. video proof? oh come come Merlin. we all know that video can be altered... Heck a whole movie with robin williams is on "video" about heaven.

Just call it a personal experiance. I will say this: that when Paul compared this world to heaven as a shadow, he hit dead on.


Actually Jmeat, Jesus told us that sex (male and female) and marrage do not exist in heaven. I'd track down the exact passages, but I'm at work at lunch and I'm not important enough to have more than 1/2 hour. However, if you ever have to stay at the salvation army dorms?.. they Do indeed separate men and women ..even if you are married to that individual. o_0 that is not heaven to me.

[CDN_Merlin]

Duper, ok I can understand. But I still have no personal proof. I guess that sounds better.

[Duper]

heh.. understood.

The experiance I had was not something I went looking for or was trying to find. and no, it wasn't a near death experiance.

Also, my faith has been apart of my life from the time I was VERY young. I'm not EVEN going to try to put up a front as though I'm perfect or better than anyone else.. you know me and that I've got my \"rough\" edges just as anyone else does.
so this happened to ME is anyones guess. Maybe for things like this where if anyone wonders I can give a bit of assurance.

[TIGERassault]

As I tried to say above, God created us as relational beings, so why would happiness involve the removal of relationships?

Because it's not necessary. Love isn't an emotion, it just causes happyness (and other emotions). When you're eternally happy, you don't need to be loved.

The way your religion teacher explained it (that happiness in heaven is some kind of "oblivious bliss") completely removes the gifts of uniqueness and relationships that God gave us! It implies that nothing in this life (not even the truly good God-given things) is of any value in heaven.

You might be correct.
Think of it this way; is there anything in heaven that is of any value in this life?

Why does a feeling of happiness mean that relationships are meaningless?

Because all relationships do is cause emotions (and help out with tasks that won't exist in heaven)

It just doesn't fit with the concept of the all-loving Christian God, who created humanity as relational! ... In other words, seeing heaven as some kind of heedless blissful feeling misses the point, and utterly ignores the value of our God-given humanity.

Who said that when you die you'll still be human?

[Side note: It makes me wonder, what is it about the quality of your teacher's relationships, that happiness requires forgetting about someone?]

Happiness doesn't require forgetting about someone; but it doesn't require remembering someone either.

[Foil]

...why would happiness involve the removal of relationships?

Because it's not necessary...

Tiger, in your concept of heaven, why does what is 'necessary' come into play? In other words, why do you (or your teacher) see heaven as limited to 'only what is required' for happiness, and nothing else?

Your perception of heaven includes:
- eternal feeling of happiness/bliss

But it does not include (because it's not 'necessary'):
- uniqueness/identity
- memory
- love
- relationship

When talking about heaven (where everything is perfect), why are these things excluded?

I'm sorry, from my Protestant Christian perspective, that 'only-what-is-necessary' view of heaven doesn't make sense to me, simply because it doesn't fit what I believe about the nature of God, who:
- *is* love
- gave us each a unique identity and gifts, and will judge us each individually
- created us as relational beings with the capacity to love each other
- actually came to live and die among us

The way I see it, God doesn't leave the gifts of love and relationship behind when we get to heaven because they're not 'necessary'.

The "we all just become happy spirits" view of heaven is common, but it doesn't make sense, when looking at the personal/relational God we see in Christ!

[TIGERassault]

...why would happiness involve the removal of relationships?

Because it's not necessary...

'Necessary'? Let me get this straight, Tiger:

Your perception of heaven includes:
- eternal feeling of happiness/bliss

But does not include (because it's not 'necessary'):
- uniqueness/identity
- memory
- love
- relationship

Again, love isn't a spiritual thing; it's simply something that causes emotions. If you love someone, but they don't know it and they never met you, then you loving them has practically no effect on them (except for the chaos theory effect)
But otherwise, pretty much. Except for uniqueness, I think that would still be there; I'm not sure.

I'm sorry, from my Protestant Christian perspective, that 'only-what-is-necessary-for-everlasting-feeling-of-happiness' heaven still doesn't make sense to me, simply because it doesn't fit what I believe about the nature of God, who:
- is love
- gave us each a unique identity and gifts, and will judge us each individually
- created us as relational beings with the capacity to love each other
- actually came to live and die among us

I realise that, but I also think that that's something to do with why 'if heaven is so great, why did God put us on Earth?'
And that's a different point.

[Foil]

[Note: I edited my last post to help clarify it.]

I understand what you're saying, Tiger. It's a view of heaven that comes from the perception of \"happiness\" as the ultimate goal of heaven. (A lot of people see it that way, because heaven to them is primarily seen as \"relief from sadness/pain\", so the rest becomes less important.)

My question is: \"Why?\" Why do you see happiness as the only thing in heaven, and not identity/love/relationship?

[Foil]

...Jesus told us that sex (male and female) and marrage do not exist in heaven...

I just looked it up; the passage is in Matthew:

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

I've heard this interpreted as meaning there is no sex/gender (male/female) in heaven. That may be true, but I don't believe that was the point.

Jesus said this in response to a question (which was intended to be a 'trick' question) about a woman who was widowed and re-married multiple times, regarding "who she would be with" in heaven.

Taking Jesus' response to mean "we don't have relationships in heaven" or "we're non-human in heaven" is a mis-reading of the context.

This wasn't a technical statement about gender/sex in heaven... it was a response to religious leaders trying to use a trick question, by saying, "In heaven, things don't work that way"!

[TIGERassault]

In other words, why do you (or your teacher) see heaven as limited to 'only what is required' for happiness, and nothing else?

Because 'anything else' (actually, an easier way to put it would be anything physical) would also cause unhappyness.
And I mean quite literally anything physical can cause slight unhappyness in some way.

Taking Jesus' response to mean "we don't have relationships in heaven" or "we're non-human in heaven" is a mis-reading of the context.

If you look through the bible, Jesus never makes up stuff. It may have been just a safe answer to a trick question, but it would still have to be true in some sense, or he wouldn't have said it.

[Mobius]

Given that heaven does not exist, except in your mind, the question is utterly moot.

[Duper]

Have fun with that Mobius.


From my understanding, marriage is a model of our relationship with God. After we leave this reality, and into His presence, there is no need for marriage. Paul alludes to this once or twice.

[Foil]

Taking Jesus' response to mean "we is don't have relationships in heaven" or "we're non-human in heaven" is a mis-reading of the context.

If you look through the bible, Jesus never makes up stuff. It may have been just a safe answer to a trick question, but it would still have to be true in some sense, or he wouldn't have said it.

I never said it wasn't true. What Christ said ("people aren't married or given in marriage in heaven") is true, but taking it farther (like the above) is a mis-reading.

[Edit: I like the way you phrased that, Duper. Well said, although I hope you don't mean the same thing TigerAssault said, that there's no need for any relationships in heaven.]

[Foil]

Given that heaven does not exist, except in your mind, the question is utterly moot.

Given that this is intrinsically a religious discussion, your point is utterly moot.

[Duper]

Oh no. Relationship is what life is about. Love never ends. While I don't believe that my marriage with my wife will continue after we die, I don't see why I would love her any less. Didn't both Moses and Isaiah speak with Jesus on \"the mount of transfiguration\"? You can't tell me that Isaiah and Moses had never encountered each other in heaven until that point. God sought council with Abraham and also with Adam. While God will be embellished in everything around us in heaven, It won't be like walking down the street in New York city.

I can understand the foundation of the idea that no relationship will be necessary in heaven. In fact, I might have thought something very similar when I was young; thinking that our direct fellowship with God in heaven would be all consuming and enveloping. Here's another unusual thing: Moses and his elders ate dinner in heaven as I recall sometime before they crossed the Jordan.

[TIGERassault]

I never said it wasn't true. What Christ said ("people aren't married or given in marriage in heaven") is true, but taking it farther (like the above) is a mis-reading.

[Edit: I like the way you phrased that, Duper. Well said, although I hope you don't mean the same thing TigerAssault said, that there's no need for any relationships in heaven.]

Huh.
Well then, what did you interpret it to mean?

[Foil]

Exactly what Duper said, that while marriage may not exist in heaven, that doesn't mean that we will not have relationships with each other or even love each other any less!

That's somewhat different than your statement that human relationships and love won't exist in heaven because they aren't necessary for happiness.

[Ford Prefect]

Well I don't see creationism yet.
And actually Foil Mobius's comment is just as valid as the others as the question was \"what do you think is on the other side of the door\"? Mobius is one for whom the answer is: nothing.
The division seems to be:

Nothing- There is no afterlife

Country club- Our personality remains intact. We recognize our earthly relationships.

Nirvana- We become something other than we are now. Earthly relationships are meaningless.

A special nod to Bettina for her idea that given infinite possible worlds and outcomes we could end up being reassembled to do it all over again, exactly as before. I hadn't really given that any thought before.

Foil: I still don't think you grasp the concept of infinite time. Since there are a finite number of notes you would be able to learn to play the guitar and then play every possible combination of notes in every possible order. As a matter of fact you could play every possible combination in every possible order in every possible combination with every other instrument which you would also have time to learn to play. All of this would take a finite amount of time and you would have infinite time at your disposal. You are going to need more hobbies in your Heaven.

[ccb056]

Layla's having a Wonderful Tonight after shooting the sheriff After Midnight and now she's Knocking on Heaven's Door with Cocaine.

[Flabby Chick]

And how many of those did he write, as opposed to the thread's title?

[Foil]

Foil: I still don't think you grasp the concept of infinite time.

I'm a math geek... I know what I'm talking about when referring to "the infinite".

... Since there are a finite number of notes you would be able to learn to play the guitar and then play every possible combination of notes in every possible order. As a matter of fact you could play every possible combination in every possible order in every possible combination with every other instrument which you would also have time to learn to play. All of this would take a finite amount of time and you would have infinite time at your disposal. You are going to need more hobbies in your Heaven.

That's exactly what I meant!

Even if I spend a thousand years studying music and the intricacies of all the instruments, and then spent a million years just wandering the stars and admiring their beauty, I would still have just as much (infinite) time when I got back!


P.S. You gotta be careful with your posts, too. Did you just say that one could learn to "play every possible combination of notes in every possible order" (that's an infinite set, unless you restrict the number of notes per combination), in a finite amount of time?

[Ford Prefect]

Hmmm..... Been a long time since math class but if there are a finite number of notes aren't there a finite number of combinations? I mean there would be a lot of them but eventually you would use them all. Okay no fair putting infinite lengths of time between them.
The point is Foil would you still be a human personality?
In order for the country club model to work people would have to get along better than now. They would have to lack the negative emotions. Anger,greed,jealousy,avarice, you know the list. Without them would the denizens be humans as we know them?

[Foil]

Ah, good question. In other words, does \"Foil = Foil minus his evil aspects\"? Would I be the same person in heaven, stripped of my anger, weaknesses, etc?

I think so, but I'm not sure I have a good reason to say so. Interesting.

[Birdseye]

there could be an existence, or 'experience' but not necessarily as \"you\" or a specific person