Define Life

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:24 pm

Reading a article (linked below) I see we are on the cusp of producing humanities own custom version of designer life. For millenia mankind has manipulated various animal forms into what man has deemed worthy for his needs. No one has said that such genetic tamperings were immoral or against Gods strictures as the process to hybridize different breeds of cattle or cats was simply using what God already established as chance off-spring.
What humanity is now faced with in a few short years is the formation of living entities from inert matter:

"Such concern is escalating as more than 100 laboratories study processes involved in the creation of life, and scientists say for the first time that they have just about all the pieces they need to begin making inanimate chemicals come alive."

"We've been saying that for the last 50 years," said David W. Deamer, a pioneering professor of biomolecular engineering at the University of California at Santa Cruz. "What makes it different now is that we have a critical mass of people interested in the field and some recent breakthrough discoveries."

If this all come to pass, how will all the various religious leaders respond? By creating life will God now view us as competitors and respond in kind as He did with Sodom and Gomorrah, or will He welcome us into the rather posh "Gods Club". Will those aliens who have been zipping around the clouds now finally land and welcome us into the galactic brotherhood much as the Vulcans did when we torched off a warp drive ala Enterprise?

Times are rapidly a-changing. The question is, "Can you hold onto the freight train into the future", without getting your pastorial robes snagged at the ticket booth.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/ ... -headlines

Darkside Heartless · Post by **Darkside Heartless** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:44 pm

woodchip wrote:If this all come to pass, how will all the various religious leaders respond? By creating life will God now view us as competitors and respond in kind as He did with Sodom and Gomorrah, or will He welcome us into the rather posh "Gods Club". Will those aliens who have been zipping around the clouds now finally land and welcome us into the galactic brotherhood much as the Vulcans did when we torched off a warp drive ala Enterprise?

Actually, to join the "God's Club" we would need to create life and it's enviroment from absolutly nothing.
I heard a joke about it:
"Man had finaly figured out how to create a human being from a handful of dirt. Thinking he could be equal with God, the scientist told God man was just as good as God. God told him to prove it, and the scientist reached down to grab a handful of dirt. Before the scientist could reach the ground, God said "That's My dirt, get your own."

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:59 pm

yeah, what meathead said.

TheCops · Post by **TheCops** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:47 pm

Life is waking up at approximately 6am. I grab some coffee and a sandmich (prolly turkey with Dijon mustard). I turn on a local news station for background as they repeat the same stories once every 30 minutes for 3 hours... but the female anchor is cute.

i usually play descent 3 for about a half hour. i will idle in chat and read the news while cubase sx and reason are loaded and i'm working on some song or (right click)this mornings section of a song. (rip-off of hendrix and prince with some bad drum programming... it fits the whole.

and since the twin cities is facing a public transit strike i have been hoofing it to work... a little under 2 miles 1 way... it's quick and has been good for my skinny white arse since I was such a lazy biotch this winter.

work is moronic... just making marketing material for rich men who golf... but some of the people i work with are real nice. if i'm real lucky we will engage in cheap sex after work... but not too often. ;p

after work, most of the time, i pick up my 6-pack joe and hang around listening to recordings and get increasingly uglier over the internet (i'm sure you are well versed)... or i will hit a happy hour or go see a band... then on most thursdays i get together with my producer guy who has been quite the flake the last 2 months and my best friend on sundays for vodka cranberry’s.

i used to think my life was boring... (i’m part partier, part hermit musician, part freak, part well adjusted white man) but now i am actually grateful for living in america with the right to do what i want... when i want... and no one can stop me.

Define life.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:26 pm

I try to tell myself that there is no real difference between making life by combining ingredients through the process of fornication or combining ingredients by way of a scientific process in a laboratory.
Then I think about the long term implications of a society left free to manufacture the 'people product' and realize that if there really is no god someone better invent him quick, and turn him loose with full vengance on the idiots who would dilute, mass-market and poison the miracle of life as we know it.
This is a target for a pre-emptive strike if ever there was one!

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:15 pm

Ahhh, so much good. So much bad. Who do you think is qualified to be the final arbitor? Some pious religious leader? Then I think of some wellrespected islamic theologian who smilingly sends children out to bomb other innocents.
Some well meaning politician? Then I think of Clinton trying to parse already well defined words.
Some blue ribbon panel of respected leaders. Then I think of the agendas each and every member may have.
Alas.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:21 pm

Simple answer, a mommy and a daddy are the only ones completely qualified and without ulterior motive and they're already equipped with the tools required.

If it aint broke don't fix it!

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:37 pm

Qualifications? You look down south often? What qualifications.

Drakona · Post by **Drakona** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:20 am

*shrug* Didn't see much new in that article. As far as I understood, we can already artificially manufacture viruses--at least, little ones. And I'm pretty sure we can't do much more. I know that even the simplest bacteria are so complex we don't even understand all of how they work--let alone are we able to build them. That's not even creation in my book anyway--being able to mechanically duplicate an already existing design. Try designing a new life form from the bottom up--there's something I know we can't do. The scale of the complexity of even fairly simple life puts it as far beyond our design capabilities as the scale of complexity of a modern operating system puts it beyond my programming abilities.

We may yet try to create life, but it would sure be a long ways in the future. And designer life--completely new critters programmed up out of nowhere--would require the work of a superintellect. I'm not sure we could ever do it. If we do, I am very sure I won't live to see it, though I would sure love to see it if it happened. I suspect it would be an occasion for awe and humility in the face of the marvel of engineering that life is.

Anyway, the long and the short of it is, the prospect of creating life is kind of cool, but don't hold your breath. And don't worry, we won't be challenging God anytime soon.

whuppinboy · Post by **whuppinboy** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:39 am

Will Robinson wrote:Simple answer, a mommy and a daddy are the only ones completely qualified and without ulterior motive and they're already equipped with the tools required.

If it aint broke don't fix it!

define qualified.

two twelve year olds can have sex and make a baby, that doesn't make them qualified in my book.

this has been coming down for a long time, Collateral Damage was an OK movie but the theory behind it (manufactured cloning) was awesome. once we made a test tube baby and than a sheep or goat or whatever it was, you knew humans were close behind. look at all the research that's been going into stem cells and such. before your baby is even born, they can tell if it's going to be retarded or not, with your permission they can go grab some good dead fetus cells and inject them into your baby so he comes out a genius or something.

it's an uncontrollable fact of life. will it happen in my lifetime? probably not but it's still an interesting concept to ponder over morning coffee

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:40 am

Drakona wrote:*shrug* Didn't see much new in that article. As far as I understood, we can already artificially manufacture viruses--at least, little ones. And I'm pretty sure we can't do much more.

wow really? i thought they just used viruses that already existed, and bred them to be more potent, more pure, and more of them. like anthrax, that occurs naturally in the soil but can be harvested and cultured. oh wait, that's not a virus.
oh yeah that's right, viruses are not living hey, they are just protiens or DNA strands or something, that infiltrate cells and tag their own DNA code onto our own (often destroying the cell). hangon, i think i can truthfully say, that i have completely fergotten what a virus is.

how embarasing

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:57 am

I live down south and my daughters are just fine, so are their friends. They live in town where the citizens are 12 times less likely to commit a murder than tens of millions of their northern counterparts...thankyouverymuch!

Qualified without ulterior motive is the key.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:14 am

Life is a cold Guinness!

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:46 am

You're not in the parts I'm talking about, then!

I'm referring to the areas with heavy COPS camera coverage.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:22 pm

I canâ??t figure out if Will is a genius or a complete idiot.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:10 pm

lol@Krom
I'm not sure where I lost you but...
I don't want children to be the product of anything/anyone other than parents.
I don't want designer children or any kind of manipulation of genetics that will open the door to government control on who can have what type of child.
The government can't even count paper ballotts or deliver more than 24% of the 'charity' they deduct from our payroll. There are few things more corrupt or inept than government...please don't put them in charge of humanity, literally!

Harvest stem cells and cure Parkinsons...ok fine...do all that, but DO NOT let any entity 'create' humans other than parents.
As flawed as some parents are the system has worked very well since man first crawled out of the swamp or was kicked out of the garden. Parents in charge of creating children is a tradition that has survived all of mans failures.

A worse case scenario:

Imagine a world where government decides what type, how many, and to whom, children shall be born. What are the criteria?
To maintain control of this authority the government decides that all humans created are genetically bred to have no means to procreate on their own.
The family is no longer a necessity, in fact it's a burden to government. Humans are created to fulfill the needs of society.
Members of government become the masters, breeding their slaves in designer nurseries.

Who will your great grandchildren be...slave or master?
Answer: You won't have great grand children, the government will.

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:18 pm

What does the government have to do with this?

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:22 pm

Do you really think they will let anyone build humans without them taking over?
They already want to legislate cheeseburgers because of the heartattack rate is a burden on their "ability" to provide healthcare....

Obviously building humans is a long way off but Woodchip wanted to know if we were ready to embrace the ramifications of the science. My answer is, we will never be ready for that.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:56 pm

Somehow we went from self replicating little entities to creating humans. Not my intent. Rather more on creations that exhibit life-like characteristics but are entirely new constructs. Heck gene therepy is already on the books and I doubt any parent here that either has a child with a genetic deformaty or has one in the womb awaiting delivery, would balk at using genetic manipulation to cure their son or daughter of such problems. I agree with Will that the choice of what a child has done to it is the parents responsibility and not the govts. However, there are parents out there that do not have the ability or desire to properly care for a child and in such cases the govt. may have to step in. A case in point is certain religious sects believe prayer will heal and will not avail themselves of hospital care to save their child.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:30 pm

Will Robinson wrote: A worse case scenario:

Imagine a world where government decides what type, how many, and to whom, children shall be born. What are the criteria?
To maintain control of this authority the government decides that all humans created are genetically bred to have no means to procreate on their own.
The family is no longer a necessity, in fact it's a burden to government. Humans are created to fulfill the needs of society.
Members of government become the masters, breeding their slaves in designer nurseries.

This is somewhat related to a paper I am in the middle of reading. It deals with US law and the definition of citizen among other things. When I am finished, I will post it in another thread and link it back to this. I don't want to derail this discussion.

Define Life

Define Life

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