Islam

VonVulcan · Post by **VonVulcan** » Tue May 15, 2007 4:31 pm

The preaching of this... fellow, speaks for it self. From the UK.

*EDIT* Sorry, should have specified, The Wahabi sect.

TIGERassault · Post by **TIGERassault** » Tue May 15, 2007 4:34 pm

Gee... Why do I have the feeling that I'll be better off if I don't watch that video...

d3jake · Post by **d3jake** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:08 pm

I'm with him ^ ^

VonVulcan · Post by **VonVulcan** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:12 pm

It's always easier to bury your head in the sand...

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:49 pm

tl;dw

d3jake · Post by **d3jake** » Tue May 15, 2007 6:00 pm

But its not a problem if you stick earplugs in your nose so no sand gets in.

VonVulcan · Post by **VonVulcan** » Tue May 15, 2007 7:24 pm

d3jake wrote:But its not a problem if you stick earplugs in your nose so no sand gets in.

LOL

VonVulcan · Post by **VonVulcan** » Tue May 15, 2007 7:25 pm

Jeff250 wrote:tl;dw

enlighten me.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:07 pm

VonVulcan wrote:
Jeff250 wrote:tl;dw
enlighten me.

"too long, didn't watch".

kinda like this..

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:30 pm

Duper wrote:
VonVulcan wrote:
Jeff250 wrote:tl;dw
enlighten me.
"too long, didn't watch".

kinda like this..

Yeah... screw the 48min video...

VonVulcan · Post by **VonVulcan** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:19 pm

Short attention span?

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:28 pm

No, 11:27 at night with no headphones, no food, and need for the restroom.

I may skim it later tomorrow.

VonVulcan · Post by **VonVulcan** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:07 am

Okay, 2 weeks have passed, anyone find the time from their busy life to comment on the contents of this video? I don't give a flyin $h!t about the commentary of the piece. The video speaks for itself.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon May 28, 2007 11:30 am

This isn't a video about islam itself. it's a video about the fundamentalist aspect.

I'd say it's up there with the fundamentalist aspect of other religion that appeals to the militant part, and only that.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:38 pm

Please shut up. Christians have just as much blood on their hands as Muslims - people think that just because they don't see it on the news that it doesn't happen. When are you going to learn that fanatics are fanatics - it's not the religion. It's human stupidity.

No, I didn't watch the video. ★■◆● off.

VonVulcan · Post by **VonVulcan** » Mon May 28, 2007 11:18 pm

LOL, Thank you for your most excellent contribution.

Shoku · Post by **Shoku** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:16 am

Beowulf wrote: When are you going to learn that fanatics are fanatics - it's not the religion. It's human stupidity.

I agree with respect to most religions, but in the case of Islam it is the religion. The Quran and other Islamic writings instruct devotees of Islam to kill Christians and Jews. All good muslims must do this if they wish to follow all the teachings of Muhammed. This doctrine is not fanatical, it is one of the foundations of Islamic belief.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:08 pm

Beowulf wrote:Please shut up. Christians have just as much blood on their hands as Muslims - people think that just because they don't see it on the news that it doesn't happen. When are you going to learn that fanatics are fanatics - it's not the religion. It's human stupidity.

No, I didn't watch the video. **** off.

ya no kiddin. killing abortion clinic doctors by bombings, that christian terrorist orginization in africa.. the list goes on. but no one says that's how christians act.. wonder why that is...

"This doctrine is not fanatical, it is one of the foundations of Islamic belief." Oh BS.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:06 pm

Ferno wrote: ya no kiddin. killing abortion clinic doctors by bombings, that christian terrorist organization in africa.. the list goes on. but no one says that's how christians act.. wonder why that is...

Oh come on Ferno. Jesus never condoned actions like this. You should know that. Just because people call themselves Christian does not necessarily make it so. Even Jesus said:

21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness .'

Matthew 7:21-23

We've been through this argument more than once. Recently I might add.

TIGERassault · Post by **TIGERassault** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:11 pm

Shoku wrote:All good muslims must do this if they wish to follow all the teachings of Muhammed.

That's great, but quite frankly, nobody really does. Just like the way there's no Christian that never sinned.

Shoku · Post by **Shoku** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:23 pm

Ferno wrote:"This doctrine is not fanatical, it is one of the foundations of Islamic belief." Oh BS.

Oh, no BS. As per the following quotes from the Holy Quran:

“O Believers! Take neither Jews nor Christians as your friends: they are only friends of one another. Whoever of you disobeys this commandment will be counted as one of them. Surely, Allah does not guide such wrongdoers.” Surah 5: 51

"So, you should not take friends from their ranks unless they immigrate in the way of Allah; and if they do not, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and do not take any of them as protectors or helpers (friends).” Surah 4: 88,89

These two quotes are not the only instructions to guide the faithful, but they are also not the only ones that direct faithful Muslims to reject people who do not accept their beliefs, nor is Surah 4 the only place where instructions are found to kill Christians and Jews.

VonVulcan · Post by **VonVulcan** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:02 pm

TIGERassault wrote:
Shoku wrote:All good muslims must do this if they wish to follow all the teachings of Muhammed.
That's great, but quite frankly, nobody really does. Just like the way there's no Christian that never sinned.

o_0..... Oh really... Astounding...

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:29 pm

All the abrahamic religions preach violence, but also kindness. One verse, Jesus says love your fellow man, another verse they say all non-believers will go to hell and to kill them. It depends on the intellect of the people who are believing in it, and how it is spread. Over there, Islam is spread radically and they say to kill non-believers and such. Over here, the worst we have is the political stuff, Pat Robertson, and abortion clinic bombings. I know of a christian who wants us to \"Turn the middle east into a ★■◆●ing glass crater\" because of the muslims and the jews. I know a muslim who is very nice and teaches tolerance and respect. So all it is the spew from the clerics, the rabbis, the priests and how violent or tolerant or whatever it is, and the education level of the area.

I can't say I saw a Hindu yell \"KILL THE SHINTOS!\", but chances are, there have been a few

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:35 pm

Dakatsu wrote:All the abrahamic religions preach violence, but also kindness. One verse, Jesus says love your fellow man, another verse they say all non-believers will go to hell and to kill them.

Oh??? where?

Dakatsu wrote:I know of a christian who wants us to "Turn the middle east into a **** glass crater" because of the muslims and the jews.

That sounds more like a neo-nazi (they claim to be "Christian" too.) or someone who is not really a Christian. He needs a reality check.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:38 pm

Duper wrote:
Ferno wrote: ya no kiddin. killing abortion clinic doctors by bombings, that christian terrorist organization in africa.. the list goes on. but no one says that's how christians act.. wonder why that is...
Oh come on Ferno. Jesus never condoned actions like this. You should know that. Just because people call themselves Christian does not necessarily make it so. Even Jesus said:
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness .'
Matthew 7:21-23

We've been through this argument more than once. Recently I might add.

that's my point. It's stupid fundamentalists using jesus' name as a front for an agenda. and it's sick.

Hey shoku, you might get a kick out of this:

My friend tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone him as commanded in Leviticus 24:10-16 ?

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:43 pm

soooo.. don't accuse Christians. Call them what they are. Fakes. And murders.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:12 am

Duper wrote:soooo.. don't accuse Christians. Call them what they are. Fakes. And murders.

Which I do.

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:30 am

Hey guys guess what!!!

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:38 am

There is some accidental necro-posting up in this hizzang!!!

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:39 am

Duper wrote:
Dakatsu wrote:All the abrahamic religions preach violence, but also kindness. One verse, Jesus says love your fellow man, another verse they say all non-believers will go to hell and to kill them.
Oh??? where?

Referring to the punishment for breaking the first commandment (I think the first one)

Deuteronomy 17:1-5 wrote:“And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

So the Old Testament says kill people who pray to different gods. In the New Testament, Jesus said "Love your fellow man." or similar.

In all of the religions then (the Old Testament is the root for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) it has good, nice words, and evil cruel words.

1) My girlfriend hasn't stoned me, tried to murder me, or torture me in a non-kinky way. She doesn't curse and is kind and respectful to anyone she meets. She is a Roman Catholic, who is taught Jesus told her to love her fellow man.

2) Hitler was also a Roman Catholic. He thought that it was necessary and perfectly okay to kill all the Jews, Muslims, Atheists, etc. He met with the pope, and was inspired from religion to do what he did. I don't consider him a nice person...

So religion can go both ways, depends on how its taught and the education level of the recieving end (the teachings outweighing the education).

I think I made my point.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:43 pm

Dak, the only point you've made is that you don't understand the scriptures. The Mosaic law was a "steward" of the Hebrews until God's next covenant which or put in place by Jesus.

The law, there, is not saying kill all non-believers.

It is saying to stone those that are descended of Abraham that are idolatrous. God gave this law to them and fair warning. They didn't follow this well at all. the Hebrews had a very bad habit of following just about any idol but under their nose if God hadn't opened up the ground in the last month or so.

It is true that God told the Israelites to go into Canaan and kill all the inhabitants. They were under God's displeasure from the getgo as they were cursed

Genesis 9:21-29 wrote: 21 He drank of the wine and (A)became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent.

22 Ham, the father of Canaan, (B)saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.

23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father's nakedness.

24 When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him.

25 So he said, "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants. He shall be to his brothers."

26 He also said, "Blessed be the LORD, The God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant.

27 "May God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant."

2 8Noah lived three hundred and fifty years after the flood.

29 So all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years, and he died.

These people were the descendants of Canaan thus they were called the Canaanites.
These people were evil and this is how he dealt with them. He did the same thing with Israel .. on several occasions; Babylonians, Assyrians, the slaughtering of the tribe of Benjamin.

btw, Hitler was not a follower of Christ, even if he attended a Catholic Church. He flipped out when the church wouldn't bury his sister in the church cemetery after she committed suicide. (this is a very common thing for the church to do.) God never said anything about not burying anyone anywhere if they committed suicide. Men decided this themselves. He also pursued witchcraft.

Man's heart is naturally evil. If they have not dedicated themselves to follow Jesus implicitly, they will make some really sideways decisions.

Time and time again, I see many here putting on God what man has decided to do and then try to cover their hinny by calling it "God's Will". There is nothing wrong with being a Christian (little christ), but there is a sale on e-bay for the name tag.

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:29 am

While I agree that the religion of Islam has some distinct built in problems, the main issue here is NOT the violence in the Koran.

The main issue is two fold.

First: Islam has NOT made the jump towards a separation of church and state. Christianity has not completely achieved that goal, but in most of the western world at least has made progress in that direction. No matter WHAT the religion, and I include atheism here, as long as it is combined with the power of the state, both the state and the religion become corrupt and abusive. As long as Islam insists upon so tightly combining the state and religion, they will be a threat to their own people, and to those around them.

Second: Islam has not learned to police themselves. Several people mention various Christian terrorist groups, and correctly so, we certainly have our problems. BUT, who is chasing and stopping those terrorists? It's groups largely composed of Christians. While the people of Islam have made some small efforts towards cleaning up the muck among there own, in general, the extreme branch has to much support and the more moderate population is afraid to take any action.

As long as Islam continues to mess it's own nest, and refuse to clean up after itself, it has no right to ask the rest of the world to respect it as a civilized religion.

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:40 am

Kilarin wrote:First: Islam has NOT made the jump towards a separation of church and state.

That won't happen for a very long time, islamic culture and the state are intertwined--same for christianity in some places like you said...oh and Judaism too...erm! wait a second.

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:10 am

Duper wrote:Dak, the only point you've made is that you don't understand the scriptures. The Mosaic law was a "steward" of the Hebrews until God's next covenant which or put in place by Jesus.

The law, there, is not saying kill all non-believers.

It is saying to stone those that are descended of Abraham that are idolatrous. God gave this law to them and fair warning. They didn't follow this well at all. the Hebrews had a very bad habit of following just about any idol but under their nose if God hadn't opened up the ground in the last month or so.

It is true that God told the Israelites to go into Canaan and kill all the inhabitants. They were under God's displeasure from the getgo as they were cursed

Genesis 9:21-29 wrote: 21He drank of the wine and (A)became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent.

22Ham, the father of Canaan, (B)saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.

23But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father's nakedness.

24When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him.

25So he said,
"(C)Cursed be Canaan;
[a](D)A servant of servants
He shall be to his brothers."

26He also said,
"(E)Blessed be the LORD,
The God of Shem;
And let Canaan be his servant.
27"(F)May God enlarge Japheth,
And let him dwell in the tents of Shem;
And let Canaan be his servant."

28Noah lived three hundred and fifty years after the flood.

29So all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years, and he died.
These people were the descendants of Canaan thus they were called the Canaanites.
These people were evil and this is how he dealt with them. He did the same thing with Israel .. on several occasions; Babylonians, Assyrians, the slaughtering of the tribe of Benjamin.

btw, Hitler was not a follower of Christ, even if he attended a Catholic Church. He flipped out when the church wouldn't bury his sister in the church cemetery after she committed suicide. (this is a very common thing for the church to do.) God never said anything about not burying anyone anywhere if they committed suicide. Men decided this themselves. He also pursued witchcraft.

Man's heart is naturally evil. If they have not dedicated themselves to follow Jesus implicitly, they will make some really sideways decisions.

Time and time again, I see many here putting on God what man has decided to do and then try to cover their hinny by calling it "God's Will". There is nothing wrong with being a Christian (little christ), but there is a sale on e-bay for the name tag.

I screwed up, in my last post I meant to say that killing non-believers was from the Quran, and that the Deut. quote was just to show plain violence for something irrational.

Sorry

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:43 am

ah.. I was wondering about that. The post seemed a bit disjointed. I know I leave out half sentences here and there from time to time; particularly if I'm tired.

VonVulcan · Post by **VonVulcan** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:42 pm

Have you seen this report?

Father Found Guilty in Honor Killing
By PAISLEY DODDS, Associated Press Writer

2 hours ago

LONDON - A father who ordered his daughter brutally slain for falling in love with the wrong man in a so-called \"honor killing\" was found guilty of murder on Monday.

Banaz Mahmod, 20, was strangled with a boot lace, stuffed into a suitcase and buried in a back garden.

Her death is the latest in an increasing trend of such killings in Britain, home to some 1.8 million Muslims. More than 100 homicides are under investigation as potential \"honor killings.\"

Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and his brother Ari Mahmod, 51, planned the killing during a family meeting, prosecutors told the court. Two others have pleaded guilty in the case. Two more suspects have fled the country. Sentencing is expected later this month.

The men accused the young woman of shaming her family by ending an abusive arranged marriage, becoming too Westernized and falling in love with a man who didn't come from their Iraqi village. The Kurdish family came to Britain in 1998 when Banaz Mahmod was 11.

\"She was my present, my future, my hope,\" said Rahmat Suleimani, 29, Banaz Mahmod's boyfriend.

During the three-month trial, prosecutors said Mahmod's father beat his daughter for using hairspray and adopting other Western ways. Her uncle once told her she would have been \"turned to ashes\" if she were his daughter and had shamed the family by becoming involved with the Iranian Kurd, her sister 22-year-old Bekhal Mahmod testified.

Banaz Mahmod ran away from home when she was a teenager but returned when her father sent her an audio tape in which he warned he would kill her sisters, her mother and himself if she did not come home, her sister said.

She was later hospitalized after her brother attacked her, the sister told the court. The brother said he had been paid by their father to finish her off but in the end was unable to do it, said the sister, who testified in a full black burqa. She said she still feared for her own life.

The years of Banaz Mahmod's abuse were compounded by police officers who repeatedly dismissed her cries for help.

She first went to police in December 2005, saying she suspected her uncle was trying to kill her and her boyfriend. She sent police a letter naming the men who she thought would later kill her.

On New Year's Eve, she was lured by her father to her grandmother's home, where she suspected he planned to attack her after he forced her to gulp down brandy and approached her while wearing gloves. She escaped by breaking a window and was treated at a hospital.

Police dismissed her suspicions, and one officer, who is under investigation, considered charging her with damages for breaking her grandmother's window.

Laying in her hospital bed after the escape, Mahmod recorded a dramatic video message saying she was \"really scared.\"

The videotape, taken by her boyfriend at the hospital, was shown to the jury during the trial.

After she was released from the hospital, she returned home and tried to convince her family she had stopped seeing her boyfriend.

But friends told the family they spotted the couple together on Jan. 22, 2006.

Soon after, a group of men allegedly approached her boyfriend and tried to lure him into a car but he refused. It was that event that prompted Banaz Mahmod to go to police again. This time officers tried to persuade her to stay in a safe house. She refused, believing that her mother would protect her.

But her mother and father left her alone in the house the next day. Her boyfriend alerted police after time passed in which she failed to send him text messages.

Her body wasn't discovered until three months later after police tracked phone records.

Britain has seen more than 25 women killed by their Muslim relatives in the past decade for offenses they believed brought shame on the family. More than 100 other homicides are under investigation as potential honor killings.

Some Muslim communities in Britain practice Sharia, or strict Islamic law.

\"We're seeing an increase around the world, due in part to the rise in Islamic fundamentalism,\" said Diana Nammi with the London-based Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organization.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:29 am

What exactly is the thesis of which you're attempting to persuade us, VonVulcan? I'm just looking for a couple of sentences here, like what you think a problem is and what you think we should do about it.

VonVulcan · Post by **VonVulcan** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:17 pm

Just reporting the news people might not know about.

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:09 pm

Jeff250 wrote:What exactly is the thesis of which you're attempting to persuade us, VonVulcan?

I think his point is that, at least in a few cases, some progress is being made. It's really quite amazing that anyone was prosecuted for an honor killing, even in Britain. The police often just stay out of the Islamic neighborhoods and let the locals take care of justice. This is progress, of a sort. Unfortunately, the odds of this man being convicted in any Islamic nation would have been very low.

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:42 pm

Kilarin wrote:It's really quite amazing that anyone was prosecuted for an honor killing, even in Britain. The police often just stay out of the Islamic neighborhoods and let the locals take care of justice.

Where on earth do you get that snippet if information from?

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