Descent 4: Invasion for UT3

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:57 pm

I have an idea! For a mod idea for Unreal Tournament 3, what about Descent 4: Invasion. Here are a few reasons why it would be possibe and a good idea.

1.) I doubt Interplay or Parallax will care, due to the long time they have been absent.

2.) Unreal Engine 3 is perfect for it. With the possibilities of UE3, we could easily do a 6DoF game.

3.) Unreal Tournament 3 will probaly have a large player base, which means larger amounts of people will see this mod.

Although I am still leaning Unrealscript, so far I have a decent understanding, and gaining alot more knowledge anytime I work with it. Assuming I still have an intrest with Unrealscript, what would you think of the basic idea?

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:09 pm

Sounds good to me but may take to long to complete alone.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:10 pm

I seem to recall this idea popping up several times over the last couple of years.

Aus-RED-5 · Post by **Aus-RED-5** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:40 pm

Duper wrote:I seem to recall this idea popping up several times over the last couple of years.

x2.

-----------------------------

Why do it on UT3? Seems to me that UT4 is more popular.

Anyways - The Doom3 MOD "Into Cerberon" is the best Descent MOD ATM.

Why not just join that team and help them?

You can help add more to what they've already done, yeah?

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:47 pm

Sounds good to me but may take to long to complete alone.

I would create the code, then showcase the code for the mod and see if anyone would join a team, assuming I get far enough on the code. It is possible for me to learn modeling with Maya (I know how to do it in gmax/3dsmax) and I can map, assuming I have to use their static meshes.

Why do it on UT3? Seems to me that UT4 is more popular.

If you mean UT2004, Unreal Tournament 3 is the upcoming one if you didn't know. It is also going to connect to the PS3 version, and hopefully the Xbox 360 version.

Anyways - The Doom3 MOD \"Into Cerberon\" is the best Descent MOD ATM.

Why not just join that team and help them?

You can help add more to what they've already done, yeah?

Besides me now knowing a flying damn about Doom 3, mine wouldn't be \"Into Cerebron: A Doom 3 mod that makes it 6Dof\", mine would be \"Descent 4: A Direct contimuation of Descent 3.\"

Into Cerebron is great (although anyone know how to play multiplayer, because there is never anyone online...) but I mean a continuation of the storyline, besides the gameplay aspect.

EDIT: Into Cerebron, get them and CD mixed up

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:13 pm

Its a bit like asking Neil Gaiman to write a squeal to lord of the rings, and yes, Parallax and Interplay would care.

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:28 pm

fliptw wrote:Its a bit like asking Neil Gaiman to write a squeal to lord of the rings, and yes, Parallax and Interplay would care.

First, I don't know anything about LotR, care to explain what that would mean, and second, why would they care since they are for the most part deceased companies? I can see why they went after the fan based D4 design crew, due to their plans to publish it as a mod, but why would they care if I were to continue the storyline and gameplay by making a mod?

Blue · Post by **Blue** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:39 pm

Duper wrote:I seem to recall this idea popping up several times over the last couple of years.

Aye, i think most of us simply don't see anything definitive being finished anymore. Lots of ideas all around, not alot of people finishing the massive projects they aspire.

A good decent mod would just be ships + flight. Forget the weapons, single player and all that. The simpler the project, the higher chance it has to be completed.

Aus-RED-5 · Post by **Aus-RED-5** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:44 pm

but why would they care if I were to continue the storyline and gameplay by making a mod?

The name Descent = Copy Rights for starters.

Blue wrote:A good decent mod would just be ships + flight. Forget the weapons, single player and all that. The simpler the project, the higher chance it has to be completed.

Thats what IC is all about.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:34 am

Have to remember if you use UT3s engine is that not everyone has a PC that can handle it. I certainly don't and probably won't for a while.

HeXetic · Post by **HeXetic** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:33 am

Dakatsu wrote:Into Cerebron is great but I mean a continuation of the storyline, besides the gameplay aspect.

Everyone on the IC team would love to do a single-player campaign, but something like that is pretty much a pipe-dream without a large, focused, and dedicated team. We're just 6 or so guys with day jobs or school doing this in our spare time, and while some great ideas for plotlines have been tossed around on the internal forum, it's just too much to handle with a team of this size.

Unless you can scoop together a 15- or 20-man team you'll find it tough to handle as well.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:50 am

Dakatsu wrote:
fliptw wrote:Its a bit like asking Neil Gaiman to write a squeal to lord of the rings, and yes, Parallax and Interplay would care.
First, I don't know anything about LotR, care to explain what that would mean, and second, why would they care since they are for the most part deceased companies? I can see why they went after the fan based D4 design crew, due to their plans to publish it as a mod, but why would they care if I were to continue the storyline and gameplay by making a mod?

Outside of the aforementioned copyright and trademark issues? For all the effort you want to put into it you want to play in someone else's sandbox?

Gekko71 · Post by **Gekko71** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:04 pm

I understand the desire of wanting to keep the D series alive, and I commend you for it. But this whole \"Let's do a D4\" thing has been played out in so many forums, it's not funny. Unfortunately I believe the D series is pretty much dead from a new release perspective. Too much time has passed to warrant another sequal commercially I think - and as many people on this forum know through personal experience, the rights to the Descent series are not available in *any* fomat when it comes to putting out a new game.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:09 am

CDN_Merlin wrote:Have to remember if you use UT3s engine is that not everyone has a PC that can handle it. I certainly don't and probably won't for a while.

I remember the same talk when D3 came out. Eventually people get one.

Future-proofing is not necessarily a bad thing, and from what I can tell Epic produces some of the more efficient engines (contrast to BF2, Oblivion, NWN2 and the like - pretty graphics but you really paid for it).

My personal take - even if you could do it - and yes, mods are usually team-oriented affairs these days, unless they're pretty small - be careful what you do. Too many people want to mindlessly rip off Descent, and that doesn't help the genre to innovate.

I'm eyeing a UT3 mod myself, but there are still going to be issues with timeframes. I think it's reasonable to say that a project of any size will take you years without a team of a dozen core contributors or so, at least. Games aren't what they used to be - everything is harder to make now.

Hell, just look at the history of video game credits and you'll probably see that. In the 1980s, one-man jobs weren't uncommon by any means. Enter the age of multimedia - the early 90s - and you started to see at least a dozen key members. By the late 90s I recall crews getting around 50 people, sometimes more; and I recall Guild Wars was created by a team of hundreds, more recently. Blizzard also has a development staff of 200-300, off the top of my head.

The problem is that as games approach the level of major films in terms of visual quality and complexity, they require crews of similar size to produce them.

Edit: OK, one more thing.

Gekko71 wrote:Too much time has passed to warrant another sequal commercially I think

There have been bigger gaps. Doom 3, for one.

The other thing is that the amount of time that has passed doesn't necessarily have a bearing on whether a sequel would be worth doing. You're not just reaching out to old fans; you're reaching out to new ones as well. If a "Descent 4" was a good game (in the eyes of the masses), and word got around, it would sell regardless of whether anyone had even heard of Descent before that.

That's how innovation takes place, anyway. You come up with an idea, and if it shows promise, it may generate some buzz, and people may become interested. If you could only release games in genres that were currently active, how would new genres be developed at all?

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:32 am

it's kinda funny. I mention Descent to people that are gamers and most of them go: \"..Ohh, I remember that game...\" Most of the time it's followed by something positive. If it's negative, it's normally about getting sick after playing a while.

Gekko71 · Post by **Gekko71** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:35 am

Duper wrote:it's kinda funny. I mention Descent to people that are gamers and most of them go: "..Ohh, I remember that game..." Most of the time it's followed by something positive. If it's negative, it's normally about getting sick after playing a while.

Me too Duper - the usual comment down-under is "Oh yeah ... I use to love that game!"

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:51 am

Duper wrote:it's kinda funny. I mention Descent to people that are gamers and most of them go: "..Ohh, I remember that game..." Most of the time it's followed by something positive. If it's negative, it's normally about getting sick after playing a while.

Mine respond with, yeah I gave up on it after Descent 1 or 2.

Most find it to hard. Some get sick.

Sllik · Post by **Sllik** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:35 pm

CDN_Merlin wrote:
Duper wrote:it's kinda funny. I mention Descent to people that are gamers and most of them go: "..Ohh, I remember that game..." Most of the time it's followed by something positive. If it's negative, it's normally about getting sick after playing a while.
Mine respond with, yeah I gave up on it after Descent 1 or 2.

Most find it to hard. Some get sick.

This and Sirius's post are the best summation of the reason why the Descent-type games are not still part of the mainstream gaming populous. Too many people either got motion-sick from it, or were overwhelmed by the learning curve. Those that didn't get sick and at least got far enough past the learning curve to enjoy the single-player experience often left frustrated as soon as they started trying to go against other players in multiplay, leaving the diehards and true fanboys to stay behind and carry the torch.

Here's a good illustration. My wife, for example, is quite the good gamer. I even got her to the point, long ago, where she was genuinely dangerous in Quake 2, and I'd say she's still one of the best hunters in World of Warcraft when it comes to Heroic dungeons and raiding. She's no slouch to anything fun that requires some skill to master. Descent? Can't do it. Too daunting, too steep of a learning curve, she always ends up on her side and can't train herself to compensate, etc etc. If I drove her to keep practicing and that was all she played, she'd eventually get there, but I'm not going to force her into it and without that kind of external motivator, she wouldn't get there on her own.

The gap between Us and Them is hard to bridge. There's something worth keeping in mind, however, that I feel is a light at the end of the tunnel. The Descent series was, in more than one way, ahead of its time. The gaming populous was rapidly growing, but still in its infancy compared to today's numbers. A perfect parallel example is World of Warcraft and the explosion to the MMO scene since it was released. Before WoW, nobody would have dreamed that the world held 7 million or more avid and willing MMO players. All prior MMOs had an average of 200k to 500k active subscribers at the height of their popularity. Would you have dreamed it possible that a new game like Descent could sell 1.2 million copies the first day of release back in 1999? 1996? 1994? The world is changing. Some of our offspring are part of a generation that grew up on gaming from their earliest memories. Hell, my daughter was playing WoW at age 2. She would ride the tram back and forth from Stormwind to Ironforge constantly, then upon realizing I was standing anywhere in either of those two cities, unerringly find me in less than a minute's time. Image recognition? Cognitive ability? Motor skills? A complete lack of being intimidated by technology? That's just a taste of what's to come.

Now enter our community and dedicated fanbase to what I would deem the 'first era' of 6dof games. A polished and well-publicized game enters the scene a year from now, hailing itself as a truly challenging shooter where gravity is not an option and challenging gameplay is your mainstay. It has cutting edge graphics, a good soundtrack, a well-developed and fully-customizeable control architecture that supports keyboard, one or two mice, one or two joysticks, or any variation of the above. Videos are released of multiplayer gameplay for this new game that look like the most entertaining and insane chaotic zero-G dogfighting imaginable, and you have a recipe for success that would make our little community cry tears of joy. Within 4 months time, thousands would embrace this new game, many fully aware that its roots are planted firmly in the Descent series. But the fact that the game is new, improves upon the old, makes full use of all the latest hardware and other optimizations, and has a now-robust group of fans playing at all hours of the day turns the tide and ushers in the new age of 6dof gaming.

It can happen, folks.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:44 pm

Well said. Exactly what I was thinking.

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:05 pm

Hmmph, I though I posted a reply, guess I have to retype it, ugh!

Before I respond to any quotes, I would like to say this is still an idea, and if it is voted no, then I plan to still learn Unrealscript. Just if I get good at it, I will do a different type of mod. I will keep the poll up until I could start a UT3 mod, then decide on the votes what to do.

Now to answer a few quotes:

I remember the same talk when D3 came out. Eventually people get one. Future-proofing is not necessarily a bad thing, and from what I can tell Epic produces some of the more efficient engines (contrast to BF2, Oblivion, NWN2 and the like - pretty graphics but you really paid for it).

Yeah, I don't care for the system requirements for it. Eventually most people could run it.

My personal take - even if you could do it - and yes, mods are usually team-oriented affairs these days, unless they're pretty small - be careful what you do. Too many people want to mindlessly rip off Descent, and that doesn't help the genre to innovate.

One of my ideas is a \"flash boost\", instead of flying twice the speed for five seconds with full burners, you can trigger a \"flash boost\", traveling 4x the speed for one second, then recharge your burners for 5 seconds. The bonus would be you could go to a key point fast, such as a teleporter or flag point. Due to how much it takes up of your burners however, it isn't usefull for the long term, and enemies could easily catch up after you used it.

This is one of my plans for new ideas. I will of course get more ideas if it reaches development.

The other thing is that the amount of time that has passed doesn't necessarily have a bearing on whether a sequel would be worth doing. You're not just reaching out to old fans; you're reaching out to new ones as well. If a \"Descent 4\" was a good game (in the eyes of the masses), and word got around, it would sell regardless of whether anyone had even heard of Descent before that.

Yeah, I plan to reach out to new crowds. Of course the old time descenters are always welcome.

Outside of the aforementioned copyright and trademark issues? For all the effort you want to put into it you want to play in someone else's sandbox?

You will notice that there are many mods for games that rip off someone elses idea (Stargate for BF2 for example). If the stargate people wouldn't go after them, I don't think the descent people would go after me, especially if it is just a mod.

The concept is there will be no official Descent 4, why not just make a mod that would be Descent 4, an unofficial sequel.

Pumo · Post by **Pumo** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:38 pm

I think the idea is not bad at all (even if my Computer can't run UT3) but as was said before, that's too much work for a single person. You would need a team to afford that, but anyway, if you want to try, go for it...

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:23 pm

Admin note: This thread has been cleaned up. Please do not crap in it again. Thank you.

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:13 pm

Does anyone know:

If you can import gmax 1.2 models into 3dsmax or Maya?
And the average poly count for a UT3 vehicle?

If you can, I may model the new Pyro-GX and/or Phoenix.

Smoking · Post by **Smoking** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:40 pm

Of coarse its a good idea. Just make it a new game and not a follow on.

Look at Rock Star, obvious rip of Guitar Hero. And quite a good improvement over GH.

What seperates Quake from Doom? Or for that matter Doom from Castle Wolfenstein.

You should not get stuck on Descent. Give everything new names, new story and do it.

Make it play like Descent but better, richer, faster, higher, lower, better.

Do the things we always wished we could do but can't. Land the ship, get out a sneak around, lay some traps, free the prisoners, run around in a hanger full of ships or hell even robots that are parked, get in and go. Leave the planet for orbital warfare.

It's big job, not for pussies. If you need help, I'm in. Weenies and nay sayer can suck plasma.

Blue · Post by **Blue** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:18 am

Smoking wrote:It's big job, not for pussies. If you need help, I'm in. Weenies and nay sayer can suck plasma.

Been there, done that. Worked on 3 titles through Garagegames.com. All went under, one was mine.

Bottom line, if you want something to get done, you need the GREEN to back it. I believe 50k USD is minimum to get things off the ground. Even then, you'll need to find people willing to work fast to meet the deadline of the budget, no easy matter. 100k USD realistically.

For a basic, bare bones 3d title dev team you need...

Programmers (3)
3D artists (2)
2D artists (1)
Sound artists (1)

Thats a lot of paychecks to fill. Hopes and dreams don't put bread on the table for developers. Working under the margin of "profit sharing" will only attract amateurs.

And even then... got a publisher? How about some kind of marketting strategy? How about a growth plan? Possible perpetual profit plan?

..

Like i said, i've been there and done that. Garage games have a 99% mortality rate. The fact that someone can even finish developing a game doesn't even mean it will be worth playing. The process is no mater to just treat lightly, it is a HUGE prospect. Storyline, gameplay, netplay, mod-abled, dynamic and original........takes a long time to make it, with a big chance it will fail miserably.

If you're interested in game development, get a job under someone elses project (a REAL company) or start making small games. The smaller the better, the less people it requires to make the greater the chance you finish it. If you find something you can make from start to finish on your own, and you have the drive to do it, you can make your dream come true.

But please.. lets let "descent 4" rest in piece.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:19 am

Blue wrote:
But please.. lets let "descent 4" rest in piece.

"peace"or "pieces"?

Blue · Post by **Blue** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:44 am

Duper wrote:
Blue wrote:
But please.. lets let "descent 4" rest in piece.
"peace"or "pieces"?

*smacks head*

[rip] tag popped into my head.

rest in peace.

TIGERassault · Post by **TIGERassault** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:59 am

Duper wrote:
Blue wrote:
But please.. lets let "descent 4" rest in piece.
"peace"or "pieces"?

I'm pretty sure he meant "Peach". Blue was always a fan of the Mario games...

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:24 am

yeah.. those mushroom babes are pretty hawt!

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:22 pm

aaaawwwwwWWWWWWWWASDSADFASLQK#$Q@#$!@#$!@#@$#@!$!#$

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:41 am

Ugh, just got back from my high school orientation, and I honestly don't think I will have the time. I have to put in 100 hours of community service, the homework is supposed to be in larger portions than most other high schools due to the IB program, I would say the only time I would get to work on it would be on the weekends, and that would be occupied with outings with my girlfriend, having my friends come over, etc.

But I am still not sure, I have to see exactly how much homework there is

(At least one class is guitar, that homework can't be too bad)

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:41 am

Honestly now, this debug uber-posting starts to get annoying...

[]V[]essenjah · Post by **[]V[]essenjah** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:14 am

If you get the scripting skills to get the vehicle physics I need, I'd be in for a small-scale project.

Some things I've learned with lots of experience in mod design:

1. K.I.S.S.: Keep it simple stupid. Old programmers saying.

2. Don't use pre-owned titles. Make your own project that isn't tied to any bounds at all if possible.

3. Start small, build BIG. Think over what you are about to do... for a few weeks at least. Critic your project and be your own pessimist. If you want a larger project to start, build the base of the project first and make that your official statement to the public. Open source your project and it's contents and use it to build onto later if you wish to advance it into a larger scale project. But keep a low profile and finish your smaller work first. Don't plan to cry if it doesn't work. Build something you will be fully satisfied with on the first floor.

I've wanted to get a small, dedicated, development group with a decent scripter for a couple of years to help me make this possible. I had a couple of nibbles but they ended up making other projects a higher priority so it is still on my to-do list. That is why I have become dedicated to working on my own solo project for D3. Still hoping for a programmer for that project too, though I may not get one.

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:13 pm

If I get the time, it will start out as making you go 6dof, move exactly like in Descent. Then I'd start the weapons, such as Lasers and Concussions. I would keep going, the last thing before the campaign or detailed maps being the player and weapon models.

[]V[]essenjah · Post by **[]V[]essenjah** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:53 pm

I wouldn't make the ships move exactly Descent.... I also wouldn't touch the same weapons. Do you have any idea what it would take to model all of those? Trust me, I have been doing it solo and I'm not a fan of doing it twice.

The idea we were working on was a lot more simple model-wise so that we could focus more on writing code and creating levels and possibly making it a bit of a challenge by adding some animations into the mix.

Just think, if you don't use the Descent title.... you could enter it into the Build Something Unreal contest too. Winning that could be your big payoff but it would need to be evenly distributed to your team.

This will also give us room to experiment with as well and focus on it being a learning experience.

Aggressor Prime · Post by **Aggressor Prime** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:34 am

As long as you don't make profit doing this, whoever owns Descent now will have a hard time following you with the law.

Descent 4: Invasion for UT3

Do you think Descent 4 would make a good Unreal Tournament 3 mod?

Descent 4: Invasion for UT3

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