Communism, Unions, Capitalism, and Mining

[Gooberman]

Distressed family members shouted and scuffled with guards after a third day without word on 172 miners trapped in a flooded mine in eastern China....

....In contrast to the blanket coverage in the U.S. of rescue efforts for six miners in Utah, accounts in China's wholly state-owned media have been terse. Reports Sunday focused on the successful mending of the breach, but said little about the trapped miners -- a sign that the government remains nervous about public anger over perceived mistreatment.....

....No officials or mining company executives have talked to miners' relatives

China's mines are woefully dangerous, with an average of 13 miners dying every day

link

Such a striking comparison, there is so much to comment on, I am uncertain which way this thread will go. Trapped miners always hit home for me, and by the coverage I suppose a few more. I don't know why, maybe it hints in at some claustrophobia that I/we all have, or the uncertainty of another’s death contrasted with the too slowly dying hope of survival. Who knows, but I find myself checking news sources much more frequently when it comes to trapped miner stories.

We had a horrific example last week in the U.S., where it would have been better for the community to just presume our 6 miners were dead. Three men died, who willingly entered a mine that was known to be dangerous. They did this in the small hope of saving men, who they knew, were more then likely dead.

Last week, communism in the U.S. would have saved those rescuers lives. All we would have had to ‘sacrifice’ for the lives of the rescuers was hope. The family members of the three must be saying this to themselves.

It is interesting that the philosophy of every man for himself seems to produces greater acts of selflessness. Forcing a society to remove earned ‘class’, consequently forces the society to remove the value of any individual. This can also be seen a few weeks ago, when China executed a corrupt bureaucrat. The argument can be extended more so, imo, this can be summed up as one is unable to care about another, unless he cares about himself.

Seriously, is there any industry in America that comes close to 13 dead/day?

I am arguing that the systems provide the individuals with completely different outlooks on life. As much as we would like to think we can think out of the system....we can't. Our marines will risk their lives just to recover another soldiers body. I think the two are connected.

Just ramblings, was going to go into unions... I’ve been reading technical papers all day, so If this is a little spacey…then…yeah

Sort of makes you glad to have a media that at least is able to shove stuff down our throat.

[Dakatsu]

Seriously, is there any industry in America that comes close to 13 dead/day?

Politics!

[Ford Prefect]

Last week, communism in the U.S. would have saved those rescuers lives. All we would have had to ‘sacrifice’ for the lives of the rescuers was hope. The family members of the three must be saying this to themselves.

You are making the assumption that just because there was no press coverage allowed of the accident and any recovery effort that no people put their own safety at risk to attempt to reach any of the 172 missing miners. Since there is no information it is possible that others may have died in a rescue attempt in China as well. Don't discount the humanity of the average person in China just because the live under a very different political and social system. Don't fall for the oldest propaganda technique in the world. That of dehumanizing the other side.

[Gooberman]

I don't devalue their life, their system devalues their life.

\"No officials or mining company executives have talked to miners' relatives \"

devalues their life.

\"In contrast to the blanket coverage in the U.S. of rescue efforts for six miners in Utah, accounts in China's wholly state-owned media have been terse. Reports Sunday focused on the successful mending of the breach, but said little about the trapped miners \"

devalues their life.

\"This can also be seen a few weeks ago, when China executed a corrupt bureaucrat\"

$ > life

[Ford Prefect]

Sorry Gooberman but I think you missed my point.
The Chinese people are as human as you and I. They love their children and do their best to help their fellow man. Just because the state controlled media and bureaucracy does not comment on what is happening does not mean that somewhere in that mine some person is not willing to sacrifice their safety in order to rescue a fellow worker. The are no less noble and willing than any American miner. They just don't get any press or any government acknowledgement. I'm not defending the Chinese government just the people of the oldest civilized country in the world.
I venture to guess as well that if you stuffed a billion people into the continental U.S. for 10,000 years the government would look very different from what it is today.

[Gooberman]

The Chinese people are as human as you and I.

Seriously...if that was your point I wasn't ignoring it, I was hoping you had enough respect not to ask me to grab at something so far down on the tree of knowledge.

Again, I don't devalue their lives. Their system does.

Clearly they are more willing to sacrafice their lives by working in the mines. This goes without saying....even more so, it adds to my point. The fact that their media is so complacent adds to my point.

[Duper]

I work with a gal from China. I don't know if this is just her of it's part of cultural conditioning, but if someone is mentioned to have died or something catastrophic has happened killing many people, she LAUGHS while recounting what happened. o_0

One of the guys in my department today heard her laughing (over something silly) and he asked me if someone died.

She's a nice gal, but a bit neurotic. that aside, I really think this is in part from a culture where life is a burden to the \"whole\" and women are forced to have abortions if they have more than one child and atheism is the state religion.

[roid]

yeah Duper i've had the same experience with Chinese culture. There is a saying "there's always more Chinese". They have a refreshingly realistic view of their 1 place in a world of 6 billion people.

oh wait i didn't notice your negative generalisations, nevermind.
Sigh... i blame American industry spreading anti-chinese sentiment. I imagine the hate will increase.

did you know Koreans eat their babys?

Seriously, is there any industry in America that comes close to 13 dead/day?

Regime Change

[Gooberman]

Regime Change

We average about 1000/year in Iraq, which is about 2.7/day.

Our military overthrowing a hostile governement, doesn't come close to losing as many lives as mining China.
I never supported the Iraq war, but you have to admit thats pretty shocking.
(Yes, if you look at the Iraq's lost I'm sure it surpases, but thats not looking at the danger of our system to us...and if your comparing the dangers of removing energy from the earth, to an industry whose goal is lobbing bullets at another group of people...then were in bad shape.)

Sigh... i blame American industry spreading anti-chinese sentiment. I imagine the hate will increase.

I believe they spread a bias, but it's a bias against communism, not against chinese people.

[Kilarin]

i blame American industry spreading anti-chinese sentiment. I imagine the hate will increase.

American industry LOVES the chinese. Without cheap chinese labor, they couldn't sell dirt cheap products at wal-mart.

The Western world's current economy is largely based on the fact that the third world provides very cheap labor.

[dissent]

The Western world's current economy is largely based on the fact that the third world provides very cheap labor.

well, markets (and economies) are a combination of supply AND demand ...

[TIGERassault]

Seriously, is there any industry in America that comes close to 13 dead/day?

Don't you mean 3 dead/day? China has a lot more people in it than America.
And yes, 3 is the actual number it should be, in terms of percentage of population. I calculated it.

Of course, if you wanted to stick with the actual figures like you just did, then your country has 50 times as many people as mine, so you can imagine that there's gonna be a lot more deaths per job in your country than in mine. You monsters!

[Ford Prefect]

Gooberman: There is no lack of respect intended. I am just trying to differentiate between the government of China and the Chinese people. I live in a suburb of Vancouver B.C. Canada where the percentage of those of Asian heritage to those of other cultures is 47% according to government statistics but the reality is that white people like my family and I are substantially in the minority. In my kids classrooms of 30 or more children there were usually 3 or 4 \"white\" kids. All the others were Asian. I work with engineers, the majority of which are Asian. Born in Hong Kong, Taiwan, China and sometimes Canada. Every one is different, everyone is a person in their own right.
Some of the generalizations I'm reading here are pretty much racism. Chinese people are not hardened to death or uncaring about suffering. Those raised in a culture much different than ours here have different viewpoints yes but they are not different people because of it. They are not dehumanized automatons dressed in blue Mao jackets and chanting party slogans. They are not a monolith of one personality. They are people making the best of a country that lacks many of the personal freedoms North Americans enjoy. Freedoms that, should they be granted, would restrict the ability of China to provide the cheap goods that North America must have to keep the standard of living high. In other words don't hope for too much change too fast in China as it might destroy the comfortable life style of those of us on this side of the Pacific.
Modern China is colourful, vibrant and moving economically forward at a breathtaking pace. Many of the immigrants that came to Canada to avoid the Communist takeover of Hong Kong in 1997 have returned home because there are many more opportunities to make big money there than here in slow moving cautious Canada and most of the restrictions placed on the population have no relevance to their everyday life.