CTF Rant

[Foil]

[Disclaimer]I'm really pissed-off right now, after the two CTF matches I just played, so forgive my tone.[/Disclaimer]

Q. Besides pilot skill, what's the one thing that helps a team win in CTF?

A. The absolutely, completely essential, utterly important, fundamental necessity of taking the fight to the other team's side.


What is it about this that people don't seem to understand?!

It seems like every freaking time I play CTF, there are players in the game who are in the game (maybe even making a lot of kills!) but who are bringing their team down, because they sit back on their asses and wait for the game to come to them. Frankly, it ticks me off more than anything in this game, including hacks.

Why? Here's a short list:

When the players on my team are moving forward every time they can, taking the fight toward the other team's side:
1. We score more flags, because:
A. Increased pressure on the opponent's defense:
-- They have more players coming toward them
-- They have less time to gather defensive weapons
B. Increased cover for flag-runners:
-- A flag-runner can get in and out much easier if there are others with him
-- Defenders can be picked off by cover players
-- The flag-runner has much less distance to cover before he is in area controlled by our team
C. Increased chance of a successful flag run:
-- More players there to pick up a dropped flag
-- Much smaller chance of an opponent getting our flag
-- Much smaller chance of an opponent being on our side during the run back
D. Increased chance of scoring in a flag-tie (both teams have the other's flag):
-- Much more pressure on the other team's flag-holder
-- Much less pressure on my team's flag holder

When the players on my team are hanging back, letting the fight come to my team's side: (even if this means we're getting more kills; this is what gets me yelling at my screen)
A. Increased pressure on our defense / no pressure on opponent's defense
-- We have more players coming toward us
-- We have less time to gather defensive weapons / spending half our time fighting as soon as we spawn
B. No cover for our flag-runners:
-- Flag-runners on our team can barely even get to the other side, much less escape with a flag, because they're basically alone
-- Defenders have to be fought off alone, no cover
-- The flag-runner has to cover virtually the whole level before he is in area controlled by his team
C. Little/no chance of a successful flag run:
-- No one there to pick up a dropped flag
-- Huge chance of an opponent getting our flag
-- Huge chance of an opponent being on our side during the run back
D. Little chance of scoring during a flag-tie (both teams have the other's flag):
-- No pressure on the other team's flag-holder
-- Virtually all the pressure on my team's flag holder

[Lothar]

[waiting for you to finish editing so I can respond]

[Foil]

[Cont'd because of \"debug\" error]

It doesn't matter if we have half our people playing defense.

It doesn't matter if we are killing them twice as often as they kill us.

If the fight is happening on my side (99% of the time this because my teammates are hanging back), my team will not only give up flags because we have no one out toward the other team's base, we will almost never score any flags.

It's not about pilot skill, either.

I've seen teams who were severely outmatched in skill, or severely outnumbered just torch the other team on the scoreboard because of the simple fact that they moved forward, taking the fight to the other team.

I've also seen superior pilots on teams with more players lose badly on the scoreboard because they were playing anarchy, and sitting back on their asses laughing at all their kills.

Yeah, it's that simple... and it absolutely drives me insane when my team sits back in a CTF match. \"I'm playing defense! I kill more of them this way!\" Nice... how about helping your team score a flag once in a &%#*ing while?

[Grendel]

There's actually a quite good CTF tutorial on PD. People should read more

How NOT to play CTF
...
3. Picking up shield orbs when the flag carrier is nearby is just plain stupid and you will get yelled at. Leave all the shield orbs for the flag carrier if they are nearby.
4.When there are already 2 people defending your base, if you stay in the base and make it more cluttered for the existing defenders, you're just helping the other team.

...
Offensive Strategy

Offensive strategy is keyed to one idea: You should have more people on offense than defense. If you follow this one rule, then your team should win more goals. Secondary to this is that you need some defensive people as well. Just remember to keep more on offense than defense.

...
Defensive Strategy

The best defensive strategy is a great offensive. I can't tell you how many games I've been in where our team just keeps getting into the other teams' base and the other team becomes more defensive minded. They're always returning to their base to protect it because it's constantly being attacked.
...
The basic premise when defending your base is that you should never have more than 2 or at most 3 people in your base. If there are already 2 people in your base, then assume some other role.

One of the most frustrating aspects of a poor game is when you have the entire team in the base defending it. A crowded base means many different things, all of which are negative:

1. Not enough secondaries to go around. People are more concerned about getting powerups than they are at defending.
2. Too crowded. A good defender needs room to move around. If a lot of people are in the base, there's less room to move around and you get killed because you couldn't move to avoid some shot an attacker is making.
3. No clear line of fire. A real frustrating thing is seeing that mega of yours get sucked up by one of your team-mates because they've moved in between you and the attacker.
4. A good attacker with a fist-full of napalm rockets can take out your entire team in one well placed suicide run. That leaves your base completely undefended and they can take the flag while the rest of your team is running around trying to get something better than blue lasers.

[Foil]

Exactly! It's been a while since I read that article, but it's the best and most thorough one I've ever seen.

The bolded things below are what drive me nuts, because it sometimes seems like half my team is ignoring them:

...
Offensive strategy is keyed to one idea: You should have more people on offense than defense. If you follow this one rule, then your team should win more goals.
...
The best defensive strategy is a great offensive.
...
The basic premise when defending your base is that you should never have more than 2 or at most 3 people in your base. If there are already 2 people in your base, then assume some other role.
...
One of the most frustrating aspects of a poor game is when you have the entire team in the base defending it.
...

[Lothar]

Foil, be careful not to discount your opponent's skills and effort. I made some really good flag runs tonight where your team was in the right position to get the stop (out in the middle of the level, etc.) and I still managed to make it through. When you ranted about your team not playing right, it sounded like you were saying I didn't deserve those scores and that your team just handed them to me. But on several of those scores you ranted about, I worked damn hard to earn the point.

-----

You're right that to win in CTF, it's important to be aggressive and take the fight to the other team's base. Nothing frustrates me more than to be playing on a team full of good pilots who never leave our own base, while a team full of lesser pilots manages to slowly but surely pile on the scores because their whole team comes into our base and one guy slips through in the chaos. I know the other day the two of us absolutely killed a team full of really good pilots because they just sat back and waited for us while we stayed super aggressive, and while they got the stop 9 times out of 10, that just meant we won after 200 tries (with horrible efficiencies, but a win is a win.)

But it's not just about taking the fight to the other team. It's about dictating the terms of the fight, winning the right engagements, and taking the right losses. Aggression is a piece of that, but you also need to use your other resources.

Use cameras to get the first shot off, intercept an enemy, or even avoid one using a camera in their base (I did this a TON tonight. Your defenders would try to be aggressive and I'd wait for them to be in just the wrong place before I'd grab the flag and run. I was dictating my terms: that an engagement wouldn't happen.)

Use the other team's aggression against them -- if they're taking the fight to your base, slip past, get their flag, and wait for most of them to fall to your defense before you pop back in. You guys were up a man and super aggressive at the start of tonight's last game, and me and Vexi-holophrastic got some scores like that, which I think is why a couple of your teammates started hanging back.

Use your shields wisely. Timely suicides to make full-shield flag runs are nice. Intentionally let a damaged enemy go so they'll get killed by your defense and respawn after you've already got their flag, rather than killing them and having them waiting for you at full strength.

Use your teammates wisely. If you've got a tank defending the energy side in VV, make your flag runs up the weapons side, and your offense will double as defense. I had a few scores tonight where I had a clear path both ways because most of your team was pushing up the same side of the map.

And, most of all... if you're not actively shooting at someone, looking for someone to shoot, or going after the flag, you're hurting your team. If you're defending, play an active defense -- use cameras and move to meet opponents where you have an advantage, rather than just sitting back and waiting. (Slowboy is a master of this. I'm always flying toward his base and suddenly a mega comes out of nowhere and destroys me. He's not just sitting back waiting for me to get to his flag, he's making a point to nail me as soon as I get anywhere close to the base.)

[Foil]

I wasn't discounting your flag-scores at all; in fact, the way you play as a flag-runner is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say. Even when you're strategizing for the right moment to grab the flag, you're always moving toward the other team's side; I have never seen you hang back on your own team's side for no reason.

What drove me crazy all night was that nearly everyone on your team was moving toward us (I was nearly always outnumbered in the middle when I was trying to stop you from running the flag)... whereas half my team would hang back to collect weapons or whatever (so again, I was typically alone and outnumbered whenever I got your flag).

Use the other team's aggression against them -- if they're taking the fight to your base, slip past, get their flag, and wait for most of them to fall to your defense before you pop back in. You guys were up a man and super aggressive at the start of tonight's last game, and me and Vexi-holophrastic got some scores like that, which I think is why a couple of your teammates started hanging back.

Exactly my point!

The beginning of the game, when our team was aggressively forcing the action to your team's side... we were playing well, the game was closely matched at 0-0 & 1-1 for quite a while, despite the skill on your side!

So what happened when you made an exceptional run past all our forward guys (including me), and my team started hanging back? Suddenly it went from 1-1 to 1-9, you guys scored so easily it was ridiculous. We couldn't stop a thing, because two of my players were hanging back in the base waiting for something to happen. And why couldn't we score? Same reason, outnumbered in the middle every time because we had way too many people who just wouldn't move out.

[Kilarin]

dang, wish I could play again. Broken joystick and wrist troubles, not to mention work overload. Life keeps getting in the way of descent, and thats just WRONG.

if you're not actively shooting at someone, looking for someone to shoot, or going after the flag, you're hurting your team. If you're defending, play an active defense

because two of my players were hanging back in the base waiting for something to happen.

Some clarification for a Descent idiot here. I had always thought that a well organized CTF team usually had someone actually assigned to guarding the base. I get Lothar's point about using camera's and making that guarding a lot more than just sitting there, And I certainly agree with Foil that you don't want half your team just sitting in the base. But doesn't it improve a teams ability to defend the flag when they have someone actually doing only that?

The rest of the team should be out putting pressure on the other side, but, I thought, one ship should be guarding the flag directly.

Unless, of course, that ship was me, in which case it is primarily just a source of shield orbs for the other side as they leave with the flag...

[Foil]

Yes, I apologize if that got lost in my ranting. There should be one or two (maybe even three in a really heavy game) defensemen.

However, as Sarge said over at the DBB.com, they need to be good defenders, and not just stat-padders (players just after kills). Good defenders don't stay in the base, they vary their position, and move out toward the middle when needed.

[Behemoth]

A good defensemen wouldn't have to leave the base.

[Kilarin]

I apologize if that got lost in my ranting.

But it was a GOOD rant. And an excellent point. When all the action is on your own side of the level, your team can, at best, strike a draw. To make points, you've got to push the action on to THEIR side. When you push most of the action on to the oppositions side of the level, even if you aren't making scores, your are, at least, keeping them busy on their own side instead of on your side grabbing the flag.

I just wanted clarification on the defender point.

[Grendel]

Some clarification for a Descent idiot here. I had always thought that a well organized CTF team usually had someone actually assigned to guarding the base. I get Lothar's point about using camera's and making that guarding a lot more than just sitting there, And I certainly agree with Foil that you don't want half your team just sitting in the base. But doesn't it improve a teams ability to defend the flag when they have someone actually doing only that?

No. Ideally all jobs are in flux according to the situation and the position of each player. Some players do have exceptional defending skills tho and should stay defending, eg. Warpig.

[d3jake]

Heh, exactly, I've found that a compleatly defensive team (save for a couple people) can string out a game, but its doomed fail, 10 times outta 10. Some people like Foil said are staying back because they want an amazing effency. If that happens to be anyone here let me be frank by saying this:
GET OUT OF THE GAWD DANGED BASE! This is a TEAM game, help the team by helping to push out. If you want to get an awsome effency, get into a anarchy game and go to town, don't screw others out of a game because of your self centered desire to feel cool.

[Lothar]

Some players do have exceptional defending skills tho and should stay defending, eg. Warpig.

Even Warpig is more helpful to his team when he moves around and occasionally pushes out of the base. I can't tell you how many great scoring opportunities I've had that he's stopped by getting in my path mid-level, or how many he's helped by providing cover in the same way.

Because of the way he focuses on defense, he makes his opponents always worry about him inside his own base, so it's almost like he's there anyway... but he also makes trouble elsewhere in the level, which is a big part of what makes him so effective.

[Grendel]

True, he does outer defense when the playercount is low and he's quite good at it too

Kudos to Lothar, excellent flag running skills. I'll have to work on a more efficient defense against the plasma wielding hyperactive phenis now (1337 plasma skills, guess I better dust off my yellow lasers and change my weaps preference) I would hate to fly more in the speedy (love to push the pyro to its limits) or start using cams (lame ) tho..

[Money!]

I'm craving some CTF after reading this.

[Lothar]

I'm craving some CTF after reading this.

And you missed a hell of a match tonight.

Me and Foil on opposite sides with fairly evenly matched teams... it's always going to be interesting.

[Foil]

It certainly was a good match. Heavy action, lots of last-second saves and close escapes!

...and yes again, I got ticked off a couple times at my team when I saw more than half of them back in our base waiting for powerups.

[BUBBALOU]

I got ticked off a couple times at my team when I saw more than half of them back in our base waiting for powerups.

These are what I call Mini Noobie Mobile Powerup Stores. They sure are refreshing since they are jam packed with all sorts of goodies never to be used in game by them anyways. Especially the black pyro ones they will hoard every poweup till they find a plasma or microwave cannon.

My team knows better, Grab one primary weapon and an Afterburner then MOVEOUT. If you don't, I will pummle your greedy self against the wall with an MD while YOUR OTHER TEAMMATES make a couple of grabs.

[insert noob comment][[ Noobs will get pissed at you here because you delayed their journey to Mini Storedom while the rest of you try to play the game]]

Everyone must know, unless you are a weapon hoarding Noobie...you should be near the energy center side to get to the flag. Peeps like me (1-3) will come up the enemies powerup side looking for these mini weapon spew junkies. This is were we break up and do our job!!! I like the powerup room, they are just like ripe fruit, gathered together in a huddle swapping cam marker and their X-Whore horror stories (now that's 3-4 not attacking our team or defending their flag) I will kill them all slowly waiting for the cap signal. then move out into the hallway. Mean while they are still inside running around still trying to find a plasma cannon to fend off their enemy with a vicious foray or spray and pray. I will nape the entrance and spawn points just in case my runner needs an escort or some cover.

These lamers fail to realize they just left their team undefended being little powerup junkies and start it over again

My biggest gripe.. and it only take like 5 Minutes to get the point across. If your in the back use Vauss or some other Energy weapon. Front line leaders use MD or some other weapon.

Noobs cant aim so they shoot you in the rear with MD and get you killed

Note : X-Whore Old skool term, ask a D1/D2 Veteran

[Foil]

As a runner, I love it when the players on the other team are hanging back. It means that a single napalm can cut half of them off from chasing me, and a single move can have me well past the others, plus I have cover guys. That means 75% of my run back... is in my team's territory, so it's clear and easy.

On the other hand, if my team is the one hanging back... that means 75% of my run is in enemy territory. It's frustrating as heck to be nearly all the way back to my own base, and still having to fight off defenders.

[Lothar]

Grab one primary weapon and an Afterburner then MOVEOUT.

Yep. And if there's no afterburner, move out and take one from an enemy with whatever weapon you picked up. If they kill you, then maybe by the time you respawn there will be a different weapon and an afterburner for you. And if you kill them, now you're better armed and you've done your team a service.

you should be near the energy center side to get to the flag

I pretty regularly score on the W side. It really depends on your opponents as well as your team. If you have another teammate keeping them busy on their E side, you can often find a gap W. If, on the other hand, they tend to push up the W side with 3 ships at a time, you're probably going to get pwn3d going that way. But it still keeps them honest... if I can keep 3 of your teammates occupied trying to stop me on the W side, that's 3 teammates who aren't stopping my team's other scorers on the E side.

Noobs cant aim so they shoot you in the rear with MD and get you killed

Yeah, that's annoying.

Unless they're boosting you past the guys who are shooting at you, such that you can go snag their flag and fly out while they other team is still trying to figure out where you went.

[d3jake]

Everyone must know, unless you are a weapon hoarding Noobie...you should be near the energy center side to get to the flag. Peeps like me (1-3) will come up the enemies powerup side looking for these mini weapon spew junkies.

Heh, this is true most of the time, however, if I see an armada of guys going down their E side, I'll slip down the weapons side, and epically if I have a nape, I'll seal off the weapons room, and slip in behind the people running off to the E side for defense and get the flag that way. And I may very well run out Energy because my teammates are causing havoc (which is the most fun to do) but often times I'll slip back out weapons side and score. Sometimes it is possible to score without reading your bible on how to play D3 Bubb.

[Foil]

Tonight.

I had the team with the tank-pyro-phoenix balance, PLUS the extra player. Phoenix was running forward, I was the pyro playing forward. But guess what. We got our asses handed to us on a silver platter.

WHY?

Because only half our team moved out. So on EVERY flag run, we were met and outnumbered in the middle. EVERY time they got the flag, they were covered in the middle.

&*(^$%#*!!!!!!!!

--------------------------

The game before that, we did fine, stayed competitive.

WHY?

Because two out of the three of us moved forward. We had cover for runs, we had players to catch enemy runners.

--------------------------

Unless you are explicitly playing defense, if you are not moving out, you're hurting your team (and if I'm on it, you can bet I'm gonna tell you).

--------------------------
Edit:

Played a third game. Got our asses handed to us.

Again... WHY?

It was 4v4, we had two players who wanted to play back. They had four who took the fight to our side the whole time. Guess what? We scored 1 point. All four of them scored 3 each.

What the &*() is so hard to understand about the principle here?

---------------------------

[Lothar]

In the third game, your guys were in 1 skippy, 2 pyros, and a tank. A pyro left and a tank came in. In Halcyon, that's a great combo. In Veins, it's not usually very good. In a 4v4 VV game, speed is tremendously important. If it's 7v7, the added firepower of a tank or two can be a huge bonus, but 4v4, the firepower doesn't matter much because it's not likely you'll ever catch anybody to shoot at them.

A bunch of times, you'd have guys trying to move forward but they just couldn't get end to end fast enough... by the time they got there, whoever they were trying to support was already dead, and then they were outnumbered. Or they'd be trying to run down the flag, and just couldn't keep up.

Had you not managed to alienate certain players, it's likely the teams would've been better balanced ship-wise.

[Foil]

In the third game, your guys were in 1 skippy, 2 pyros, and a tank. A pyro left and a tank came in. In Halcyon, that's a great combo. In Veins, it's not usually very good. In a 4v4 VV game, speed is tremendously important. If it's 7v7, the added firepower of a tank or two can be a huge bonus, but 4v4, the firepower doesn't matter much because it's not likely you'll ever catch anybody to shoot at them.

Even when it was 4v3 (the extra guy on my side), we couldn't do anything because our forward guys (me and the phoenix) were completely unsupported. Why? Because our tank and other pyro were sitting back.

A bunch of times, you'd have guys trying to move forward but they just couldn't get end to end fast enough... by the time they got there, whoever they were trying to support was already dead, and then they were outnumbered. Or they'd be trying to run down the flag, and just couldn't keep up.

... because they wouldn't move out of our base until you guys were running away with the flag. I can't count how many times me and the other forward guy were the only ones making stops, because we were the only ones forward. My other pilots were chasing the flag from behind... because they were hanging back.

Had you not managed to alienate certain players, it's likely the teams would've been better balanced ship-wise.

I'll admit it, I was PISSED-OFF tonight (I'm still not calm, half an hour later). I wasn't angry at the one guy because he wasn't playing forward... he was! I was yelling at him because he blocked me with his ship and cost us the flag... twice!!!!


I love CTF, but this is driving me insane.

There were so many times I went flying toward your base, maybe one guy going with me. I'd see all four of you heading out, taking the fight to our side... and I just wanted to have my teammates beside me so I could say, "THERE! THAT is why they're getting all the flags!"

The ONE time my tank teammate decided to help by moving forward... guess what? We not only got our flag back, we scored! I pointed that out, and asked our team to keep pressing... and suddenly I'm seeing two of them flying back toward the base (which of course made it easy for your team to score). What the &*($?

[Zero!]

welcome to the d3 world foil

no one listens to what u say in ctf and u will end up with crapy teams and theres nothing u can do about it, on the other hand im pretty sure ull get and have gotten tons of overpowered teams too so dont get so mad

[BUBBALOU]

teamspeak works you know

[d3jake]

And RIP does have Ventrio server that we use, but if you're in a game with 7-8 random people, by the time you get them all onto teh right TS\\Vent server, and channel, and back in game, the game woudl probably be over by then. It works, yes, but unless we designate a TS server and channel for playing in X gameserver, whether it be VEX, Von, or whatever, there will be no easy way to get people on teamspeak.
From what I know this place has its own TS server running, who do I see on it? Virtually nobody except for a few guys who pop into the Descent old School channel. Unless we can motivate the whole comunity to get a mic\\headset install TS, and get into teh right server\\channel for everygame, its no gunna happen, nice thought though.

I was thinking about this Foil, and even though its the stuff of school children, have you thought that there are some lamers that read these threads and try topiss you off? I've seen it loads of times in school here, and its not that much of a brain jump to assume that since they're on teh internet and its all anonmyous except for a name on a screen, they'd prolly do it becuase they take pleasure\\joy in seeing you get ticked off. It ticks me of myself when I see someone doing that, if its in real life on on teh net. Some guys\\gals just need a better hobby.

[Foil]

no one listens to what u say in ctf and u will end up with crapy teams and theres nothing u can do about it, on the other hand im pretty sure ull get and have gotten tons of overpowered teams too so dont get so mad

You're right... I need to quit expecting my team to always be doing the right thing, and just deal with it.

[Grendel]

\"Yelling\" at your team most likely has the adverse effect. I've good experience just to (calmly) tell them \"we need to move forward\" once in a while via team chat.

[Foil]

[FoilAtAngerManagementClass]
\"Hi, I'm Foil. I'm a CTF addict with an anger problem.\"
...
\"Hi, Foil.\"
[/FoilAtAngerManagementClass]

[d3jake]

What you need is one of those squishy ball thingies that you can get out of one of those claw crane game things. It kinda looks like a bacterium, but its a stress ball, its a ball of runner and stuff and you can squish it alot and it doesn't' break, thus relieving stress, theoretically.

[Foil]

That could be dangerous... I'd end up throwing it at my monitor.

[BUBBALOU]

I use a Teamspeak Plugin for my G15 keyboard, everything can be done ingame...........weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

this is another one

http://www.goteamspeak.com/index.php?pa ... =1&item=20

[Kilarin]

What you need is one of those squishy ball thingies that you can get out of one of those claw crane game things

Actually, one of the BEST ways to reduce stress is to get into a rip roaring descent 3 CTF game...

oh...

Uhm, never mind.

[d3jake]

That's cool Bubb, if me and the rest of the 90% of the community who don't have g15 were to get them I'm sure that we'd be happy to use that, but untill then...

[grizz]

The best way I know to deal with stuff in the game is to remember its only a game.

We play to win, cause that's part of the fun, but it really doesn't matter whether we win or not if we're having fun and enjoying the people we game with. *Braces himself for sarcastic, biting remarks*

CTF would be more fun if we were in team voice channels. I'm not that good at it, and wouldn't mind a team leader or team mate telling me I should do things differently.

[Krom]

I usually ended up being a defense player in CTF games since most people in the teams I have been in would say I am harder to get past than most players, but in Veins sticking only to defense is often boring and tedious. I always get a little irritated when I fly up to the enemy base to find all 7 players, all armed with MD, all camping and hardly moving past weapons and energy. But it is also bothersome when everyone is in our own base, and usually it means in order to get to the other side you have to fight your way through 3-5 enemies both going and returning.

9 times out of 10 in Veins either one team or the other is almost exclusively camping the base, it almost always boils down to that lowest common denominator strategy. The level itself promotes that efficiency whore play style because there are only two routes into the bases and it is still a pretty large level. If all 7 of you camp in one base the other team has to come to you, and the size of the level will tend to break them up into easily manageable attacks. The main problem is when a team plays like that, it becomes nearly impossible to manage the timing on an offensive attack for either team and the game becomes stale. The only version of Veins where you saw less of this was the original because all the spawn points were in the center of the level. It happens less in Halcyon since the level is smaller, but you still see it sometimes.

But I'm really not one to talk about CTF strategy anymore since most of the last 3-4 years I was playing CTF I played it almost exclusively as anarchy just killing the other team because it was the most fun for me that way. Although I usually did end up playing anarchy in some place that at least would lend a good helping hand to my team if there were people trying to play honest CTF. My favorite spot was usually the enemy base in Halcyon, since they respawn quickly and I hardly ever run out of targets.

In my opinion for whatever team you are on, the best place to have the main conflict in the level in a CTF game is always at the enemy teams base. But it isn't as universal as that, you can give up on the enemy base if you still control most of the level. What is important is controlling the right points of the level at the right time.

Actually, I would think a neat way of playing CTF in D3 would be to reverse the spawn points in the level so red players spawn in the blue base and blue players spawn in the red base, that would definitely make for an interesting Halcyon game. Getting the enemy flag would be almost a given, but getting yours back and at the right time would be the real challenge.

[Foil]

In my opinion for whatever team you are on, the best place to have the main conflict in the level in a CTF game is always at the enemy teams base. But it isn't as universal as that, you can give up on the enemy base if you still control most of the level.

That is exactly what I want to get through the thick skulls of the players on my team who just want to sit back and let the game come to them.

Actually, I would think a neat way of playing CTF in D3 would be to reverse the spawn points in the level so red players spawn in the blue base and blue players spawn in the red base, that would definitely make for an interesting Halcyon game. Getting the enemy flag would be almost a given, but getting yours back and at the right time would be the real challenge.

I'd call that "D3 Football", I think. Hm, mod idea?

[Sirius]

Halcyon base campers are what the impact mortar is made for.