Call out to all D2 level designers (old and new)!

[DarkFlameWolf]

I am starting a project which I'd like the entire D2 level making community to be involved in. The title of the project will be: Descent Vignettes.
The reason being, is that a Vignette is a short film or clip that tells an entire story. So likewise, every level in this mission will be technically a 'full' level but will be small enough, condensed enough, so that it takes a mere 5 minutes or less to complete each level fully.
Furthermore, with this freedom to do 'small' levels, allows level designers to explore various concepts and ideas that may not be good to base an entire 'full-fledged' level around. But would be awesome to execute as a single 'concept level.' (if that makes sense) Furthermore, because of this, we can probably extend this mission to up to 50 levels or more depending on how many people contribute.
Rules:
- Most important: it must be D2 only. (not Vertigo or D2-xl) We want the widest audience possible to play this, so it must be made for standard Descent 2.
- Every level can have any combination of blue, yellow or red keys to solve it.
- No robots or power-ups just yet, you can make secret areas for them, but no power-ups/robots. I'd like to arrange the levels in an order at the end that'll make sense and then scale the difficulty and weapon giving at a balanced rate throughout the mission.
- For secret areas, since the levels will be very small and compact, you can make them more interesting than just a 'one cube' behind a hidden door type of secret area.
- Hostages are allowed to be inserted if you so choose.
- If you plan to contribute, I'd appreciate if you can make 5 levels, 4 reactor ones and one boss level. I'll also be making at least 5 levels. So at the most, if you were to 'combine' the 5 levels you contribute, you could probably make an entire FULL level and a half (maybe).

As an example, I wish I had my first level done, but I'll display it here when its done for a more concrete example of what I am expecting for 'compact concept levels.' But I plan on making one tube run through the level, where you can also go into the tube and its support structures to claim the keys that you could see while flying outside and around the tube. Its hard to explain but its a single concept that I want to base my 'entire' level around. At the most, I'd probably be using 300 cubes or less, more so if I decide to be 'Kruel'-like.
But yes, short, small, fun levels from various makers around the community bundled together in a 30-50 odd mission campaign would be a great project to give back to the community and give players more D2 goodness. With much more freedom to explore simple, single ideas to base levels around, rather than multiple huge ideas, I'm excited to see all the quirky, zany ideas people can come up with.

So who is interested?

[Sirius]

Sounds cool... I'd volunteer (albeit not at the expense of my current project - I must finish that soon or Diedel will hit me ).

[DarkFlameWolf]

well, thing is, with 5 small levels, it probably wouldn't take up 'too' much of your time. Combined together, the five levels as stated, should probably add up to make on normal Descent level. (or at least one of your larget levels in Apocalyptic factor)
And what about Darkhorse?

[Kyouryuu]

300 cubes? Hehe. So we're basically looking at the average Descent Maximum level? How gimmicky would the levels be, then? Is this the kind of thing where you have a level themed after forecefield hell, or are they more ordinary?

[DarkHorse]

Actually, I had something in the pipeline. What version of the D2 engine are you using, default? Need to know whether I can expect to work with transparency beyond cloaked walls.

[EDIT: Never mind. For some reason I read all the rules but the first one.]

[EDIT 2: One more question though, can I have custom textures?]

[EDIT 3: And another suggestion, put a deadline on this thing. ]

[DarkFlameWolf]

Glad to see more interest, I was unfortunately going to have to cancel this if people weren't more willing to contribute. Because in actuality, if you were to combine all 5 levels you contribute to the project, they shouldn't be much bigger than a full level and a half in any other normal mission campaign. So its not like I'm asking 'that' much.

As for Kyouyuu's question: make it as whacky as you want. Its all about thinking up a theme for a level, and merely basing the entire level around that concept. No need to drag it out to 900 cubes and wear out the idea. (unless you're Kruel and like insane detail)

As for Darkhorse's questions:
custom robots, textures, etc. would all be welcome. I'd like to see what is down the pipeline and use them throughout the levels. Obviously the new robots would be spread throughout the levels via me when I'm balancing the whole mission. The textures however, may not get distributed evenly amongst the designers, but we'll see how it goes.
As for enemy/weapon balancing, after my initial placement, I'll send it out to the level designers who contributed for their input on what additions/deletions/edits would work best for the overall product. I'm just merely going to do the first (and final) pass, whatever happens inbetween is up to you all.

As for the deadline...um...none yet. >_> I'll get right on that... XD I'd say no more than 2-3 months max for all 5 levels. Maybe 4 months for the slow workers. Is that enough time, or do I need to give more? (as for me, I'm probably in the 4 month category because of my navigator training, I build when I get time! XD)

[DarkFlameWolf]

And made an update to the rules above, but I'll re-iterate them here:
- Hostages are allowed if you so choose.

[Pumo]

I want to contribute also!

I may do at least 3 levels, but can do more if i feel to do it (even more than 5).

4 months are enough at least for me.
So i need to start working.

Just a question, where should i and all the other level designers post the levels? Here on this same topic or via E-Mail?

[DarkFlameWolf]

if you're going to contribute, I'd like 5 levels. Remember, these are to be relatively small. You can send all levels to me via email.
Naturally, all level designers will instantly become testers when it comes time for final compilation unless they choose not to have that position.
I'm halfway done with my first 'small concept level', so once I find out a free spot online to upload it, I'll put it up here for a quick idea of how simple some of these levels can and should be.
Remember, simplicity of concept/but complexity in design. Just because it should be simple, doesn't mean it has to be 'minerva.' ha ha XD

[Diedel]

Pumo,

please please keep working on your big mission instead of stretching yourself over too many different projects.

DFW,

what wide audience do you want? Most people use D2X-XL for singleplayer these days anyway, and it's offering so much over D2.

Sounds cool... I'd volunteer (albeit not at the expense of my current project - I must finish that soon or Diedel will hit me ).

Good man. I am really looking forward to it - what I have played from the sample you have sent me for debugging plays just awesome. What a beautiful mission. I need to keep myself from playing it and spoiling the real thing for me.

[DarkFlameWolf]

well, I'm just thinking about everyone, not just those who use D2-XL. Surprisingly, there are some who don't have Vertigo yet, let alone D2-XL. This way, if its compatible with only Descent 2 original, it'll work for those with Vertigo AND D2-XL. We're not trying to break barriers here. We're merely making a nice mission campaign for the community made BY the community. Its just that this way we'll have the widest audience possible.
That and I have a proggy that'll convert D2 levels to D1 for people who prefer a D1 experience over D2. And the proggy doesn't seem to quite like D2-XL-formatted levels. So that's another reason.

[Diedel]

So you're gonna make the 5000 and first standard D2 style level set with the same old textures. No colored lighting. No static smoke. No lightnings. No skyboxes. No hires custom textures. And and and. Dang boring legacy stuff.

I think you can count the single player fans not using D2X-XL with a hand, or two. And you can tone D2X-XL down to minimum requirements, but you cannot crank level quality up from a standard level to D2X-XL.

D2X-XL levels do not require the Vertigo expansion, btw.

What a waste of time in my eyes. You could instead get a team together to pull off some really cool D2X-XL levels. Just look at what Pumo does. Why don't you help him? Geez, what could happen if a few skilled and dedicated Descent level designers set out to build something great, something that would put Boiling Point to shame? Instead you chose to create something average to accomodate \"everybody\".

Oh well. It's a free country.

[d3jake]

Bah, its a good idea. Espically for those who choose to use Rebirth. Yes it doesn't have all of the bells and whistles that can be turned off like XL has, but many like the \"legacy\" feeling.

The stance that you should accomidate everybody is a sound one. Just how I wouldn't like it if somebody said \"Okay, we got this neat new fuel for cars, but, its only open to those people that have year 2003 or later cars, they have all of these new features, why waste the gas on the older cars. The reason being is becuase not everyone can afford a new card, or in this case, prefers to use XL.

It has been said many times by both d1\\2x camps that everyone is free to choose the one that they like, now, we should have a project where people aren't penalized either way for choosing to live in one camp or another, or both.

[DarkFlameWolf]

actually, they 'can' have colored lightings, static smoke, lightings and stuff. Simply play the levels in D2-XL. You don't have to 'make' a level in D2-XL to have those special features. I'm playing Lost Levels and old D1 mission campaigns and I get all those cool features that were never built into those levels. D2-XL will supply more than enough 'coolness' to these levels without making them D2-XL exclusive. (true, we don't have 'portals' or 'cameras' or 'wind tunnels.' But you can do more than enough without those for levels.
But before we bog this thread down any further, I want to pull it back on track to the level designers and who wants to contribute to the project. Remember, its original Descent 2 stadard program base to give the widest audience possible to play. (and freedom to choose) You can send me your 5 levels when they are done to darkflamewolf@yahoo.com. I will contact you by early next year when its time for testing and final compilation.

EDIT: oh and let's get one thing straight, I use D2-XL, and always will, its an awesome program. I can't play Descent 2 otherwise anymore. But I will not let that fact prevent others who can't use or prefers/choose not to use D2-XL from being penalized by making the level set D2-XL exclusive just because I can't play it any other way. That's not fair to them.

[Diedel]

You can't have a lot of cool D2X-XL effects in standard D2 levels, including static smoke (smoke coming from the geometry), and imvho you are pulling a lot of potential in a lackluster direction.

There's tons of legacy missions out there, but few D2X-XL missions, and D2X-XL offers so much. Instead of accomodating a small minority of legacy fans, did you think of how many D2X-XL users would be happy about having a cool new D2X-XL mission?

The \"fuel\" comparison isn't a valid one, because you compare \"having no choice\" with \"preference\". Actually you are putting a small minority over a big majority here. Personal reasons? What other reasons could there be for preferring Rebirth over XL than personal ones? There's hardly any hardware around in the Descent community Rebirth would run on, but XL wouldn't. Be honest: How many XL users are there, and how many cannot (or don't want to) use it? Talking singleplayer here. I am having at least 1.500 downloads of every D2X-XL version. At least because there are several download sites and I am not monitoring every one.

It's just a shame you are pulling the available Descent level building and talent and workforce into a (in my eyes) mediocre enterprise, when you could as well set out for something novel, great and stunning.

Btw, I think I am having valid points, and as a member of the D2 community I should be heard, and why not here. How the issue is resolved is another story.

I for my part would love to see a dedicated D2X-XL level building team around. I don't want to lead it, I don't want to coordinate it, but I would definitely support it any way it's needed.

[Sirius]

To be fair, I do know real people who dislike D2X-XL... their reasons range from the personal to the somewhat reasoned but still a little personal (e.g. dissatisfaction with bugs sometimes turning up, or the number of versions coming out, whatever...). I'm not sure if I ever heard any real technical reasons why someone *can't* play using XL, unless their computer was not fast enough for it... I have my doubts that happens any more though - the people using old machines are usually just legacy zealots who have a box specifically for playing D2 (usually under 3dfx).

Still, you can get a fair bit of mileage out of legacy D2, especially if the levels are small. It depends on the level whether the missing smoke, lightning, and more interesting triggers are an issue, though... (triggers being the main feature I've used much)

d3jake - XL supports the legacy feeling too, incidentally - there are some -nostalgia command-line switches for the interested.

[DarkFlameWolf]

regardless of which side of the issue you land on, I'm putting it out there final, that if you want to contribute, I'd like it to be in the old 'legacy' Descent 2 version for your levels. Or unfortunately we can't accept what you contribute. Wouldn't be right if those players who 'choose' to use other forms of D2 to play the levels suddenly get stopped at level 13 or something because that level was specific to D2-XL. With it being the lowest common denominator for platforms, people can pick and choose how they want to play their Descent.
(and mention again the program that only seems to like DMB-original-based levels to work when converting to Descent 1)

[Wishmaster]

Ooh, this is an awesome idea. Time allowing (or time making, heh) I will definitely be contributing. How long that takes is the only real question here. I'll attempt 5 levels, but who knows, I might get carried away and do more. My preferred editor is DEVIL - will that mess up your plans to convert back to D1?

If you're looking for any custom music, I may fool around and see if I can come up with anything there.

@Ongoing debate: I love D2X-XL for its own stuff - but I'm really digging the traditional feel DFW seems to be going for with this mission.

[Pumo]

@Ongoing debate: I love D2X-XL for its own stuff - but I'm really digging the traditional feel DFW seems to be going for with this mission.

The same here. I would also like to make Small levels for original D2. For D2X-XL i'm making Pumo Mines using all the great plethora of features of D2X-XL, but that's another story (BTW, i can make small levels really fast. This project won't interfere with Pumo Mines in any way).

Also, i've got some old computers (Pentium with original OPL2 Chip! YAY!! ) to play this mission project.

PS. DarkWolf, i've got a first level almost done!
I just wanted to know if i can add normal D2 bots on it or if i must wait for the custom bots (if there is any)...

[Aus-RED-5]

- No robots or power-ups just yet, you can make secret areas for them, but no power-ups/robots. I'd like to arrange the levels in an order at the end that'll make sense and then scale the difficulty and weapon giving at a balanced rate throughout the mission.

[Pumo]

OK.

[DarkFlameWolf]

So far I have 3 possibly 4 solid contributors to the project. Including me, that ends us up around 20-25 levels so far. Not bad if it all comes to fruition.
But in contrast to Diedel's post (which seems a bit abnormally competetative to mine), I'd rather not have each level be a 'gimmick' level around one feature of D2-XL or another. Which is why I am keeping it Descent 2 'original.' I would rather each level be centered around a 'concept' design idea for the level rather than a 'gimmick' feature. Which imo, when basing a level purely on a concept idea, would lend to much more interesting designs for levels.
I'm excited to see what Pumo, Darkhorse and Wishmaster can come up with. Still awaiting firm confirmation from Sirius and Kyouyuu before I add them to the creator roster.

edit: minor setback for me. I must have clicked a wrong button and now the entire level is a single texture, that and it saved it at the same time. So I gotta redo all textures, so I'm kinda taking a break from the level for today and will tackle it tomorrow. bleh.

[Floyd]

backup daily. zips with date in the filename work well with that.

[Diedel]

Your speaking about D2X-XL levels being \"gimmick oriented\" shows how little you have understood both of D2X-XL's capabilities and of my post. All the features I have listed there are to serve one purpose: Create a dense, exciting atmosphere. They are means to an end, not the essence of a level. Get a clue.

Of course there is competition, I wrote that: There's only so much Descent level builders around, so it might boil down to either your project or mine making it.

I didn't put my hopes too high, but I didn't want to leave the place w/o having at least tried to appeal to people's reason.

If the level designers would rather create dull standard Descent 2 mission #1001, so be it. I just wonder where computer gaming was today if everybody thought as small and backwards oriented as that.

[DarkFlameWolf]

and I'm wanting to make this mission set for the players and for them to have fun in a game that brought them many good memories, not a means to an end to get more publicity to a program that I made. There is a difference as to why I'm doing this.
I appreciate your work on D2-XL, I really do. But I'd like to give people the freedom to enjoy the game they love so much by choosing what they want to play it with. Why force them into something when they'd prefer something else?
Maybe we can later make an add-on pack with D2-XL oriented levels later. But I'd like the core package to be legacy descent. Really don't know why you're trying so hard to fight/argue/be against me. I really don't have any negative feelings towards you.

[MD-2389]

Sounds like an interesting idea. Can't wait to play the finished product.

[Aus-RED-5]

But I'd like to give people the freedom to enjoy the game they love so much by choosing what they want to play it with. Why force them into something when they'd prefer something else?

Is that right?
The rules you have laid out aren't exactly a "freedom of choice", now is it??

Rules:
- Most important: it must be D2 only. (not Vertigo or D2-xl) We want the widest audience possible to play this, so it must be made for standard Descent 2.

::EDIT::
Anyways, good luck. I do hope that what everyone puts together works out. It's always great to see someone making mission packs no matter who makes them!

[Diedel]

\"A means to an end of getting more publicity for a program I made\"?

All I want is a really cool Descent mission including the (imvho) really cool stuff D2X-XL offers - for the benefit of the mission, not of D2X-XL. I wrote that - can't you read, or don't you want to read?

D2X-XL is popular enough! The D2X-XL objectors are a small minority! I posted a 4 digit number of D2X-XL downloads here, was that too big?

I will not repeat why I am against such a project, nor that this isn't personal. If you didn't understand it when I wrote it once, how should writing it again change that.

Get a clue already.

[Sirius]

I'd prefer not to see this thread closed... maybe we should agree to disagree on this?

P.S. In case someone is misunderstanding Diedel's point of view, I might reiterate what I see as the essential part - he has been waiting a while for someone to make good use of the features he has worked so long to implement... which is why he thinks vanilla D2 is a waste of time, and I can appreciate that.

Personally, I think the solution lies in a dollar each way.

[Diedel]

Thanks Sirius, that pretty much sums it up.

[DarkFlameWolf]

so as I stated: a core mission package of D2 Legacy and a add-on package for the D2-XL users. Score for everyone!

[Diedel]

That sounds like a blessing for everybody.

[DarkFlameWolf]

I'd prefer to have the non-d2-xl enhanced core legacy mission package done and out first, then I'd be MORE than happy to work on a few d2-xl exclusive levels. Its just that I have some design ideas that were left over way back since Lost Levels that I never did try making. And those didn't require extra features, so why force it into something which extra features aren't necessary to enjoy or create?
Anyhoo.....if I can get at least 4 other people to contribute 5 levels each, including myself, we can have a decent 25 mission 'core legacy' campaign. Then we can move onto further d2-xl levels. (just as small, but no less interesting) How's that sound?

[Pumo]

It sounds perfect to me!

[DarkFlameWolf]

so a confirmation here, who is actually going to be contributing 5 levels to this? Please let me know here.
Furthermore, once they are done, send them via darkflamewolf@yahoo.com. I'll plug them in right away. And you'll be contact eventually for being a tester for the overall project if you so choose.

[Pumo]

I think i will contribute with 5 levels. I've got the first one done already.

Will send you to your mail as soon as i can...

[Sirius]

I should be able to, but it may take a week or two to get started. I have concepts, of a sort, but need to make something out of them.

[Wishmaster]

Confirming that I'll be doing 5 levels. I've already started on my first.

Also, DFW, could I see the tube level you mentioned? Your description of it gave me an idea, but I want to make sure I'm not thinking of the same thing you're already doing.

[DarkFlameWolf]

I'm not quite finished with the tube level, but I'll send it your way through hotmail to see what I've got so far. (give me a few hours) But I believe with our two different styles of design, it probably won't be anything like what I'm thinking of. Thanks anyhoo! So...
with me, wishmaster, sirius and pumo, that's 20 levels so far. I'd like at least 30 (2 more designers). 50 levels would be awesome, but 30 at least to make this a lengthy campaign.
(maybe the last 20 to add up to 50 could be the D2-XL add-on package? lol XD

Also, go a bit quirky with your level names. My current one with the lava tube idea is named: And Lava Runs Through It.
I'm just having fun here with these levels, and you should too.
Got an awesome idea for a boss arena. Big enough to accomodate the battle an Alien 2 boss would take, so that's probably what it'll be used for. That'll be the next level I start on.
Most of my levels I plan on making extremely inter-connectivity. You go back through the small levels over and over again, but in a different part which you could have only seen from the previous part. So its like unlocking each level a bit at the time. I love those types of levels so I'm trying to exemplify that in mine.


EDIT: ALSO, I just about finished up my first level and it looks great. It comes in close to around 400 cubes but its short, small and can be completed within 5 mins. Perfect! How is everyone else coming along with their 5 levels?

[DarkFlameWolf]

my first level is done if anyone wants me to send it to them to take a look-see at what I'm doing. Furthermore, how is everyone doing on their 5 levels?