The Golden Compass

[Dedman]

I read the other day that the book from which The Golden Compass was taken from has anti-religious themes. There are references to it on Snopes.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp

Has anyone heard of this? I'm curious, will this keep those that consider themselves to be Christians from seeing the movie?

[TechPro]

I've heard that, but have no references.

One main point: At some point in the stories they (or a person) kills \"God\", and the accomplishment of that is an important part of the tale.

However, in all fairness, Phillip Pullman's (the author) website indicates that he doesn't know if there is a God or not and he doesn't think anyone can know, no matter what they say. http://www.philip-pullman.com/about_the_writing.asp

Eh, we each get to choose what we think. Me, I have no interest in the stories.

[Ferno]

Watch as the religious nuts protest this movie.

[TIGERassault]

Ah yes. Good books, they were. But they did generate HUUUUUUUUUUGE controversy with the Christian church when they were released.
And really, I have no sympathy to anyone offended by this book. If people can have books that promote Christianity, then why can't they have books that promote atheism?

[Sirius]

They already have, Ferno. Maybe not demonstration-style, but I have heard \"warnings\"/discontent/whatever.

Personally I haven't watched the film or read the books, and don't really plan to, but that's mainly because they don't seem sufficiently interesting over other stuff I could watch/read...

Hell, I play Diablo 2, and that's far less agreeable with many people. I think.

[TIGERassault]

Hell, I play Diablo 2, and that's far less agreeable with many people. I think.

Right. And people haven't been giving out about video games non-stop already?

[CDN_Merlin]

Some people are just to damn sensitive about movies. It's ENTERTAINMENT. If it doesn't ENTERTAIN you, don't watch it. PERIOD!

It's not like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to watch this barbaric torture going on with someone saying something or not about religion.

UG

[Wishmaster]

I haven't seen the movie, but from what I've heard, there's nothing specifically wrong with it. I think the concern is more with the books, and the fact that people will see the movies and then buy the books for their kids.

I've read the trilogy - yes, I really enjoyed it, but yes, it's downright anti-religious. Since I'm Catholic, I wouldn't want my (theoretical) kids reading the books at the ages they're targeted at. As Pullman says, he's \"trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief.\" (Snopes) For believing Christians, that's fair reason to warn other Christians that the books aren't as innocent as the movie. I haven't decided whether or not I'm going to see it, but hey - it's a free society. I won't try and stop anyone from going.

[Dedman]

My boss sent the snopes reference around to everyone at work via email. I wanted to see the movie before. Now I really want to see it, if only to give him a detailed play by play.

[Duper]

Some people are just to damn sensitive about movies. It's ENTERTAINMENT. If it doesn't ENTERTAIN you, don't watch it. PERIOD!

It's not like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to watch this barbaric torture going on with someone saying something or not about religion.

UG

The Romans considered feeding Christians to lions "entertainment."

[roid]

the link to that snopes page is generally included at the end of the emails as a \"see for yourself\" footer.

someone posted such an (rather large) email on a forum so we could all lol together, and we did lol, and the loling was great, and great was the loling.

Christian martyr complex - GO!


On the subject of movies being entertainment. I don't watch film to be entertained, i watch film to learn something - to be exposed to ideas, themes and situations that i have not before.

Some ppl will not like what a film is about, they will find some theme disagreeable. This is about as concerning as me not liking aniseed - coz i don't, and now i'm going to go protest about aniseed coz everyone else should hate it too.

Claim: The 2007 film The Golden Compass is based on a series of books with anti-religious themes.

Status: True.

i find it funny that this is somehow controversial.
here's a counterpoint:

Claim: Hundreds of films are produced that are based on a storys with pro-religious themes.

Status: True.

ZOMG THE CONTROVERSY

[Ferno]

Some people are just to damn sensitive about movies. It's ENTERTAINMENT. If it doesn't ENTERTAIN you, don't watch it. PERIOD!

It's not like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to watch this barbaric torture going on with someone saying something or not about religion.

UG

The Romans considered feeding Christians to lions "entertainment."

While we're at it, let's make other ridiculous analogies!

[roid]

The Romans considered feeding Christians to lions "entertainment."

Christian Martyr complex
Godwin's law analogy (nazis, hitler, jews, etcetc)

[Duper]

aw roid, don't h8

[MD-2389]

Personally, I'm going to see it because it looks like it'll be interesting. Religious themes mean nothing to me. As long as its got a decent story, I'll give it a shot.

[Kyouryuu]

Watch as the religious nuts protest this movie.

I hope not. First it's movies... then it's teddy bears.

[Firewheel]

I find it humorous that both Christians and atheists are upset about the movie.

[Foil]

Yes, it's entertainment.

Yes, the author has the freedom to write whatever he wants.

Yes, one major theme in the books & film is \"killing God/religion\".

No, I wouldn't want my (theoretical, because we don't have any yet) young kids to see it.

Is this because I am just prudish and have no appreciation for entertainment? No, and if you believe that you don't know me at all.

It's because I care about the early religious influences on my children, because I want them to grow up in my faith. I would expect the same of anyone else (e.g. I would expect any strong atheist to disapprove of his/her young kids going to a concert which is part of a Billy Graham crusade).

...Now, I have to make the disclaimer that once they're older, I would certainly let them see it. Heck, I might even encourage it, if they were studying perspectives about religion.

-----------------------------------------------

The point is:

If you're strongly religious, of course you're going to be cautious about something so overtly antagonistic to your beliefs.

If you're not strongly religious, of course it's not going to make any difference to you.

For each side of this to berate the other for their perspective is just stupid.

[Duper]

Thanks Foil for stating what should have been fairly obvious.

well said.

[Ferno]

\"It's because I care about the early religious influences on my children, because I want them to grow up in my faith\"

wow.. just wow.

Perhaps you should see the movie FIRST before making that kind of decision.

[DCrazy]

I would expect the same of anyone else (e.g. I would expect any strong atheist to disapprove of his/her young kids going to a concert which is part of a Billy Graham crusade).
[snip]
For each side of this to berate the other for their perspective is just stupid.

You seemed to have missed something rather important... many people who are strong atheists tend to be of the opinion that rational people can make their own informed decisions. I'm a weak atheist, and would have no compunctions about taking my children to church services, or temple services, or anything like that, if for no other reason than cultural value. But I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to do so.

Then again, I can't see myself as being anything but a terrible father, so I don't think that situation is going to arise soon. But from what I've seen from the people I know, atheists on the whole tend to be more rational and less reactive than those of faith. I've never heard of an atheist campaign against The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe for example.

[Foil]

Claim: The 2007 film The Golden Compass is based on a series of books with anti-religious themes.

Status: True.

Thus religious folk don't like this film.

here's a counterpoint:

Claim: Hundreds of films are produced that are based on a storys with pro-religious themes.

Status: True.

Thus non-religious folk don't like those films.


As I said, it's ridiculous for either side here to berate the other for their perspective. Christians not wanting to see 'The Golden Compass' is just as normal as atheists not wanting to see 'The Passion of the Christ'. It just makes sense.

[Foil]

Perhaps you should see the movie FIRST before making that kind of decision.

If you're saying, "Don't make snap decisions about things before you know anything about it", I completely agree. Yes, Christian culture sometimes over-reacts to things; I know people who have started boycotts just because they "heard from some guy that organization X supports (something non-Christian)".

Honestly, when I first heard about The Golden Compass, I was skeptical about the warning. Most of the 'warnings from concerned Christians' I hear about are 'email forwards', of which very few have any real truth.

However, that's not the case here. These books/film are overtly anti-religious, as stated openly many times by the author himself. This anti-Christian/anti-religious theme is made very clear.

So, if you're saying "Foil, you're rushing to judgement on something you don't know about", I'm sorry, you're wrong. I do my homework on this stuff.

[Foil]

You seemed to have missed something rather important... many people who are strong atheists tend to be of the opinion that rational people can make their own informed decisions. I'm a weak atheist, and would have no compunctions about taking my children to church services, or temple services, or anything like that, if for no other reason than cultural value. But I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to do so.

And once my children are mature and rational enough to make their own informed decisions, I would let them.

I should clarify that I'm talking about young children, not those who are old enough to start making distinctions about their beliefs.

I've never heard of an atheist campaign against The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe for example.

Why would they? The Chronicles of Narnia is religious, but I don't recall any theme akin to "killing Neitzsche".

The reason for the protest by the Christian community is not that the books/film are non-religious, but because they are anti-religious! The author describing the overall theme as "killing God" is about as antagonistic as it can get.

[Ferno]

Either way, I'll go see the movie and see if it matches up with what I've read here.

[Jeff250]

You seemed to have missed something rather important... many people who are strong atheists tend to be of the opinion that rational people can make their own informed decisions. I'm a weak atheist, and would have no compunctions about taking my children to church services, or temple services, or anything like that, if for no other reason than cultural value. But I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to do so.

Right on. I would put so much more value in my kids being critical thinkers than them taking the same stances that I do. Whatever they believe, I just want them to be able to engage in discussion about it and provide convincing arguments for it and weigh in opposing viewpoints. I'm not just talking about regurgitating the same old apology passed down for centuries, but being able to make original, critical assessments.

And once my children are mature and rational enough to make their own informed decisions, I would let them.

Ugkh, having grown up with this, I can tell you the following: you cannot indoctrinate children for 18 years that viewpoint X is correct, good, proper, etc, and that opposing viewpoints are incorrect, evil, improper, etc., let them loose, and then expect them to make completely rational decisions about it. This is why "letting" them make rational decisions after a certain age is entirely insufficient. Rational decisions aren't things that need to just be "let." They need to be fostered from the beginning.

This isn't to say that I'm against any attempt of parents passing down religion. In fact, I suspect that it's good for religion to be passed down, but they need to do it in the right ways. Any way that prohibits you from letting your kids see a movie because it has a theme counter to your religious viewpoint is going about it the wrong way. Exclusively telling your kids why your religion is right and why the others are wrong, even if giving them your reasons why, is going about it the wrong way. At least not unless you're going to give opposing viewpoints the same opportunity.

As I understand it, Christians value free will just as much as I do. That's why you should encourage your children to choose their religion out of a larger conversation, not out of your personal coercion.

Then again, I can't see myself as being anything but a terrible father

LOL, me neither, at least not yet. Although I suspect we'd be better than most...

[woodchip]

Movie sounds cool. Now, when will a anti-Muhammad movie be made? Maybe have a cute teddy bear in the intros.

[Dakatsu]

Movie sounds cool. Now, when will a anti-Muhammad movie be made? Maybe have a cute teddy bear in the intros.

That reminds me of the hissy-fit Comedy Central made about the South Park episode with Muhammad.

OH MY GOD NOES!!! THEY IS SHOWNING MUHAMAD!!! TERRISTS MIGHT ATTACK!!! AARRRGGHHHH!!!!!

[Foil]

And once my children are mature and rational enough to make their own informed decisions, I would let them.

Ugkh, having grown up with this, I can tell you the following: you cannot indoctrinate children for 18 years that viewpoint X is correct, good, proper, etc, and that opposing viewpoints are incorrect, evil, improper, etc., let them loose, and then expect them to make completely rational decisions about it.

18?!? Oh, heck no, that's not what I meant at all. The last thing I want to do is 'indoctrinate' my kids. I had friends who grew up in homes like that, and it's not something I would want to duplicate.

I'm talking about young children, during that super-impressionable time before their critical thinking really begins to kick in.

This isn't to say that I'm against any attempt of parents passing down religion. In fact, I suspect that it's good for religion to be passed down, but they need to do it in the right ways.
... you should encourage your children to choose their religion out of a larger conversation, not out of your personal coercion.

Agreed! If I coerced my kids into a certain belief, then it's not a genuine belief. My goal should be to guide, not indoctrinate.

That's part of the reason I would want my (young) children to avoid things like these books/film... they're presented as purely entertainment, but by the author's own admission, they're intended to teach a doctrine (atheism).

[Ferno]

I hope not. First it's movies... then it's teddy bears.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iAt ... f1wPysrsIA

[Grendel]

It's because I care about the early religious influences on my children, because I want them to grow up in my faith.

The last thing I want to do is 'indoctrinate' my kids. I had friends who grew up in homes like that, and it's not something I would want to duplicate.

I'm talking about young children, during that super-impressionable time before their critical thinking really begins to kick in.
[..]
Agreed! If I coerced my kids into a certain belief, then it's not a genuine belief. My goal should be to guide, not indoctrinate.

That's part of the reason I would want my (young) children to avoid things like these books/film... they're presented as purely entertainment, but by the author's own admission, they're intended to teach a doctrine (atheism).

ATTN everyone -- here we see a prime example how a meme procreates in its native environment.

[Duper]

ahh .

but you don't have any kids ...that we know about at least.

But this Is what having kids is all about. \"letting them find their own path\" is rubbish. They do that anyways, if you don't keep them ON it they will fall off a cliff somewhere. Every parent indoctrinate their children. in one way or another. Either in caring for others, alcoholism, or even apathy and dis-caring. They watch and learn. It's rather unnerving to see ourself in your children when they are very young and is a real wakeup call to anything unsavory that surfaces.

(yeah i know.. it's \"uncaring\" ..which I kinda am about that spelling right now. )

[roid]

Claim: The 2007 film The Golden Compass is based on a series of books with anti-religious themes.

Status: True.

Thus religious folk don't like this film.

here's a counterpoint:

Claim: Hundreds of films are produced that are based on a storys with pro-religious themes.

Status: True.

Thus non-religious folk don't like those films.


As I said, it's ridiculous for either side here to berate the other for their perspective. Christians not wanting to see 'The Golden Compass' is just as normal as atheists not wanting to see 'The Passion of the Christ'. It just makes sense.

i did see passion of the christ, it was on TV here i taped it and thought it was neat
You may be right that i would hesitate to show it to my young kids, coz it's by far the sickest most violent movie i own. I might have enjoyed it more if i hadn't already read the book so much lol.

i liked the Matrix, and starwars. It'd be pretty impossible to avoid the great story, all humans know it.


I have to mirror DCrazy's statement, i'm not afraid to expose my kids to Christianity for fear they'll convert.
i would like to protect them from con-artists and propaganda though. Kids ask enough questions of their parents, i'm sure they'll get a good understanding of how the world works. i don't think i'll stay up at night worrying about it heh.

[Foil]

It's because I care about the early religious influences on my children, because I want them to grow up in my faith.

The last thing I want to do is 'indoctrinate' my kids.

ATTN everyone -- here we see a prime example how a meme procreates in its native environment.

Lol!

Seriously, I wasn't 'changing my tune', although I see how it might appear that way.

There's a big difference between the following:

- encouraging one's children in a particular direction, yet being open about the choices and allowing them to make the genuine decisions when they're mature enough (my first quote)

- indoctrinating one's children by denying them exposure to anything other than what you want them to believe (my second quote)

[TIGERassault]

The most anti-religious thing in the entire film is that the made-up religion practices standards used by the Christian church in history, the 'purge the non-believers' attitude. This film is less anti-religious than a decent history textbook, and if anyone would want to censor those, then they've got a lot of explaining to do!
It's also worth pointing out that this is a PG-13 film, not a film intended for young children at all.

[Foil]

This film is less anti-religious than a decent history textbook...

I beg to differ:

"I'm trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief." - Philip Pullman, author (link)

He makes this very, very clear in a number of quotes and in the theme of the book and film.

If it were just a matter of attacking the negative aspects of religious dogmatism, I wouldn't have such a problem with it. Other films worth watching do that. But that's not the case - his statements and his works attack religion (specifically Christianity) as a whole.

[Ferno]

always take anything you see in the media with a grain of salt, Foil.

[Foil]

Oh, I do. I was skeptical as usual when I heard this.

Being around the church, I hear 'warnings' about things once in a while, and they often doesn't have much truth to them.

Unfortunately, this one does.

[Duper]

always take anything you see in the media with a grain of salt, Foil.

since most here like Wiki, Read here.

[Ferno]

then you pretty much owe it to yourself to go see the movie and see if it matches up with what you read. On the other hand, you might end up finding out the articles are full of crap.