Red Faction Sequel Official

[TigerRaptor]

Funny thing is I think UT99 has more players than UT3. Not a good thing for a brand new game. Now even thought I still enjoy playing UT3. I personally hate the idea that Invasion, Assault, and Domination where left out. Along with any new ideas.


Now I'm curious to see what Red Faction 3 will offer.

[Sirius]

I really liked what I saw in UT3, agreed. DH - it isn't a PC exclusive - there is a PS3 version (if not now, soon), and a 360 version will follow in a few months. The main issue is that it has a hard time competing with fresher games that, while perhaps not as pretty or well-balanced, capture the imagination of gamers better these days.

Now, regarding making Descent work for keyboard/mouse. You would basically lock the ship so you couldn't bank, or turn past vertical. This sort of thing will be quite familiar to most gamers - FPSes with flying vehicles tend to behave pretty similarly.

Then you would design the levels so that you didn't need to. This isn't terribly hard; most good multiplayer levels in the Descent games already fit this criterion. You would make vertical sequences the exception, and a kind of special part of a level, rather than doing whatever you feel like.

Of course you can't control what third parties release - but by including in the base set a bunch of levels that are easy to handle by the keyboard/mouse brigade, it'll make multiplayer much more accessible to those that cut their teeth on Q3, BF2, UT2k4, Halo, or whatever.

Personally I'd also investigate the option of turning that kind of stuff off in some game mode and letting people control the ship however they felt like... but when you're making games, reaching out to new audiences trumps showing them how \"pro\" your existing pilots are.

[Duper]

The problem with UT3 is that Epic ★■◆● on the community. They are banning anyone that says anything bad about their product and editor and is flatly refusing to fix a highly buggy editor saying there is nothing wrong.

...nice.

[CDN_Merlin]

Problem with Descent like games, to hard to learn. That is the bottom line and we all know it. Only the die hards and the Space Sim fans would try D4 or any similar product. People who play UT or Q4 etc won't be buying many copies.

[TigerRaptor]

Problem with Descent like games, to hard to learn. That is the bottom line and we all know it. Only the die hards and the Space Sim fans would try D4 or any similar product. People who play UT or Q4 etc won't be buying many copies.

Well then bring Descent to UT3. But I highly doubt any one will be take on such a project.

[d3jake]

Only under that flawed logic can one ignore the simple fact that every popular PC game uses the mouse. From BioShock to World of Warcraft, from Oblivion to Half-Life 2. Players do not want to learn gobs of keyboard combinations and buy joysticks in order to play a game. Even back when Descent was popular, that learning curve turned away a lot of gamers. It's only worse now - people by and large don't own joysticks.

That's because those games are inhertly so. To dumb down 6DoF to the level where GP players are comfortable would be to make Descent a GP game itself...

Now, regarding making Descent work for keyboard/mouse. You would basically lock the ship so you couldn't bank, or turn past vertical. This sort of thing will be quite familiar to most gamers - FPSes with flying vehicles tend to behave pretty similarly.

Then you would design the levels so that you didn't need to. This isn't terribly hard; most good multiplayer levels in the Descent games already fit this criterion. You would make vertical sequences the exception, and a kind of special part of a level, rather than doing whatever you feel like.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. A. if you lock those controls, those people will get WASTED by any person from these boards playing in that game. B. If you make those changes, what is to separate it from a GP game? Weapon set? What it could be? You're basically dumbing it down to appeal to the masses, if you do that, it loses it's touch, and sure, the game will take off, but few of the "old school" players will play it. The exceptions being those who already play a variety of games.

[Sirius]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. A. if you lock those controls, those people will get WASTED by any person from these boards playing in that game.

Not as badly as if you don't! There's nothing wrong with having already-experienced people being great at a game; the problem is if the model deters newcomers.

B. If you make those changes, what is to separate it from a GP game? Weapon set? What it could be?

The weapon set is a large part of it - because one of the unique things about Descent is the absence of hitscan weapons - but it's not everything. It would still have six degrees of freedom; unlike most games with slightly similar vehicles (UT3), the ships would still be confined to deathmatch-style levels with cramped spaces, room for tactics, and all that kind of stuff.

You're basically dumbing it down to appeal to the masses,

Yes, I am. I'm aware of this.

if you do that, it loses it's touch, and sure, the game will take off, but few of the "old school" players will play it. The exceptions being those who already play a variety of games.

The old-school players who play a variety of games are the majority of them; most old-school players have in fact moved on from Descent, hence why the forums here are so empty. This puts the population of people who are less likely to accept some change to the game model at a few hundred at most.

I'm not really seeing a problem here.

[Krom]

Also I'm not suggesting locking the vertical axis for everyone, just the players that want it. Someone like me with a joystick should be allowed to play unlocked axis in any level we want. The axis lock would be something for pure convenience for typical FPS players since it would allow them to fly using the same familiar WASD control configuration they are used to. They could use crouch and jump for sliding down and up, the mouse for aiming and fire primary / secondary, the only extra key they would need to be tapping would be one for the afterburner.

Having a client side setting that can lock the axis to make WASD controls work easily would open the game up to hundreds of thousands of players who otherwise wouldn't tackle the learning curve.

[WillyP]

The idea of 'dumbing down' for newbs is not a bad idea... but I think it should be done at the server... This would encourage pros to leave the newbs to themselves, and at the same time encourage the newbs to work up through the skill levels. That is to say, the better players would not want to join a game where the axis is locked. And as someone grew in skill level, he would be looking for more advanced games.

[Sirius]

That's possible as well Krom... the thing that I'm not convinced of is whether it'd be fair. A server setting like WillyP suggested would be fair, but begs the question of how difficult it'd be to find the games you wanted. (Hopefully not too bad.)

I would expect servers that supported unlocked motion would have some kind of icon in the server browser - like a lot of them do e.g. in Battlefield to mark out certain settings - as it is quite an important difference.

[Krom]

No need to segregate the WASD players from the free players, if you look at popular levels in play today. Veins, Skybox, Indika, Halcyon, Vamped, Athena, etc... could easily be ported to a standard \"ground pounder\" level. Having a locked axis in levels like those would probably hardly ever be a disadvantage since the level itself is largely flat, even more so than some standard \"ground pounder\" levels.

Seeing some unlocked player pull off cool stunts could motivate a few players who like the game play to push it to the limit and learn how to fly unlocked themselves. Having the locked controls available client side would do a lot to keep new players in the game long enough that they would want to try it.

If you are asking on a level of fairness, take into consideration how forcing the locked or unlocked status would be fair for people who depend on the lock to stay upright. It isn't going to hurt people who prefer unlocked to have locked players in the game, and it definitely isn't going to hurt the players that rely on the lock so they don't get disoriented. Sure they won't be able to do all the moves that an unlocked player can do, but at least they will be able to SEE where they are going and what other players are doing.

[WillyP]

Maybe there could be another column in the game browser to indicate skill level. Players could still join advanced games, but then they'd be playing unlocked. Some would say 'cool!' and get good, or at least better, others would go back to being WASD'ers. Most of my R/L friends have played Descent and all but one refuse to play, not because it's too hard, but because they get motion sickness. (the one who still plays refuses to play multi, won't say why.)

Well, if they really wanted to play locked in an unlocked server, why not? Perhaps they could lock client side in an unlocked server.

[Sirius]

The main thing I was thinking was whether it'd be fair to allow unlocked movement with locked players in the game (as in locked by their own choice). But then, you pointed out that it's rarely a disadvantage in most levels... I agree. I also mentioned designing the levels that ship with the game to make this flight model easy to use with them.

So, fair enough.

[d3jake]

Unfortunately, as nice as all that is, if you do that, allow locking, then those players will get killed simply because they won't be able to turn around fast enough. Despite how high your sensitivity is, you can only rotate at a certain rate, no two ways about it. So now you'll have players that will fly around, but get killed due to not being able to face their opponent. Ah! But then maybe the player can add left and right rotate to their setup, certainly would solve the problem, however the inability to be able to easily track enemies above or below themselves will, in itself, be a deterrent. But then hopefully Krom will be right and those players will buckle down and put the rest of the controls on their non-mousing hand. Or go out and get a joystick.

Anything that you can do to make the game "friendlier" to those new to 6DoF will pull it further and further away from what Descent is. Certainly, it will pull people to the game, no doubt about that, however, eventually they'll have to buckle down and learn a worth-while config instead of trying to cram everything onto a WASD config. I personally don't know of any mousers who have that setup.

Also, it would also beneficial, certainly, to have a good quality default setup when a game would ship. In my opinion, the default keyboard setup, blows, horribly. Maybe it was that I didn't take a chance to leanr it, which is trie, but to me it didn't seem practical. I would think it would be beneficial to include a couple full mousing setups that would allow players to choose between a couple setups depending upon what they like. If they choose to not use them all, in favor of the "locking" method, and then slowly get used to the normal setup, after getting slapped around for a while with a "locked" setup deciding that "Well, I got used to the weapons somewhat, and I'm getting wasted by these full-mousing\\joystick\\kb only setups, so I'm gunna try one of those."

It would not have to be a server option, due to it meaning that a player is voluntarily restricting themselves.

The old-school players who play a variety of games are the majority of them; most old-school players have in fact moved on from Descent, hence why the forums here are so empty. This puts the population of people who are less likely to accept some change to the game model at a few hundred at most.

I'm not really seeing a problem here.

Heh, but that's assuming that they wouldn't take a look at the game and say "#### that, I'd rather be playing that game from 1999. Many of the players who have "moved on" have in fact, come back, and played it again. Why? At least for those I've talked to, it was because of the distinct gameplay style, unmatched by ANY current commercial game in its entirety.

[Krom]

How are they not going to be able to turn fast enough? Sure banking can let you turn a bit faster in D3, but surprisingly most of the time you only use it to stay level not for the turning speed advantage. The lock could take that into account so the ship could still roughly match turning speeds even near the top and bottom of the players viewpoint. It definitely wouldn't a handicap to a wasd player, especially in flat levels.

It wouldn't be impossible to exploit the locked players turning speed weakness, but it would be a lot harder than exploiting some newbies disorientation.

[roid]

Hmm, with this talk of unlocks - no-one has mentioned actually having it as a rank based unlock. Like Battlefield. You could have everyone start out with axis locks ON, and you can only unlock them as you gain in rank.
I'm reminded of nTrap's open ended aquired technology-tree based gameplay (perhaps like elite).
You could have multiaxis control as an in-game addon device you have to EARN.

Still, it wouldn't make much sense unless you integrated all sorts of unlocks into the whole game. Then you basically have a whole different game dynamic to the original 100% skill-based Descent dynamic anyway.
Blah, it's not simple.

...I think that the only trouble with a 6DoF game (think "descent-like") is that the controls may be difficult to master, thus making the average teenager who has the span of a newt say "That's gay" and start playing Counterstrike\\Halo.

I agree on this. Even myself, if a game requires more than 20 minutes to learn how to control, I give up. It's not worth my time.

Lander Demo
With friends we sat there for hours laughing as we slammed into walls at great speed, as if they had some magnetic attraction. To us though, it was nothing short of hilarious how BAD we were at controlling it. We could not stop laughing, it was like watching funniest home videos of people running into garage doors and falling off snow covered roofs. It was so naturally ... like this .
It was intuitive, our panic was just keeping it from us, like catching a wet bar of soap - it was just hilarious how easily we would fall face first in mud in our panic.

Everytime i look at the Nintendo Wii, i think that "learn a new interface method" seems to be making a comeback. Just look at how many minigames there are, all play differently, and this seems to actually be their selling point. People DO seem to want to have fun learning novelty new things - but how do we tap that? Anyone have any idea on what Descent has that the Wii doesn't? Maybe it's coz the Wii was specifically advertised as novelty - whereas the Descent franchise would have used the exact same advertising method as other ego shooters (german term for FPS ground pounders).

Perhaps descent style games should be specifically advertised for their novelty - much like Portal was advertised for it's innovative gameplay mechanic. However i think Portal profited INCREDIBLY well from being associated with Half-life (brilliant PR of that company, everything they touch is gold). Also the Wii is inherently a different market to the PC.
PCs are confusing, i'm honestly starting to believe the nerd stereotype - that PC gamers are mostly fat idiotic teenagers who solely want to feed their egos with ego shooters. I'd rather my product be on a console, like a Wii, i just think it'd be a more suitable market for breaking the game-mold.

[Sirius]

Certainly, it will pull people to the game, no doubt about that, however, eventually they'll have to buckle down and learn a worth-while config instead of trying to cram everything onto a WASD config. I personally don't know of any mousers who have that setup.

This sounds fine to me. I should note that I could still do pretty well in for instance D2 with a locked-axis setup simply because my playing style doesn't rely on that kind of thing to work, though. Players of our hypothetical game would possibly find themselves in a similar situation. If there were a chording speed boost the case for a fully-functional configuration would be strong though.

Heh, but that's assuming that they wouldn't take a look at the game and say "#### that, I'd rather be playing that game from 1999.

1995. Remember, the majority of Descent players never played Descent 3. Hard-core players may have, but they're a small market, and most of them preferred D1 too.

Regardless, these people also have logic. If they LIKED Descent, they'll probably at least see something in a reminiscent game. It doesn't have to be exactly the same.

Many of the players who have "moved on" have in fact, come back, and played it again. Why? At least for those I've talked to, it was because of the distinct gameplay style, unmatched by ANY current commercial game in its entirety.

There have been quite a few, but it's chicken feed compared to the numbers that played it initially. This seems to indicate the vast majority of people who played Descent can be happy with other things as well.

[d3jake]

How are they not going to be able to turn fast enough? Sure banking can let you turn a bit faster in D3, but surprisingly most of the time you only use it to stay level not for the turning speed advantage.

That is to say, to do a full rotation, without keys set to left and right rotation, they will have to pick up their mouse, and then set it back down. That's what I was refering to.

[Sirius]

Uh, yeah, generally you can turn the sensitivity up to deal with that.

[Duper]

ironically, i use the same key setup for descent as i do ground pounders.

AZWXSDEQ + stick or mouse. I was a long time Descent 1&2 mouser.

[roid]

I was a long time Descent 1&2 mouser.

you could play D1 with mouse? man i forget.

[Sirius]

D1X, certainly. Probably the original too, but probably not as well.

[Lothar]

I was a long time Descent 1&2 mouser.

you could play D1 with mouse? man i forget.

Yep. The main issue was framerate... as you got above 30, your mouse got to be less responsive (since you were moving it less per frame, I guess.) Most of the best mousers either locked their framerate in d1x or used a program like ps2rate to make their mouse more responsive.

[Duper]

Back then I was lucky to get 10 fps!!! i would have been ecstatic with 30!

actually, back then i was using a serial mouse and the DOS drivers that I was using allowed me to bypass that whole 30 fps wall. (once I got my voodoo card). I think it's the way that windows polls the mouse that makes a mess of things. All I know is that I could nearly keep up with the Sidewinder guys at that point.

[d3jake]

Uh, yeah, generally you can turn the sensitivity up to deal with that.

You can crank it up all you want, but that will NOT make your ship turn faster at a certain point and above, that would be known as mouselook, and kills the game physics. There is a certain speed limit on how high you can spin a ship.

[Pandora]

Seeing some unlocked player pull off cool stunts could motivate a few players who like the game play to push it to the limit and learn how to fly unlocked themselves. Having the locked controls available client side would do a lot to keep new players in the game long enough that they would want to try it.

Quake Wars is doing it like that. You can enable "advanced controls" for the vehicles that makes flying a LOT more difficult but also unlocks fancy maneouvres. Seems to work great so far.

[Sirius]

You can crank it up all you want, but that will NOT make your ship turn faster at a certain point and above, that would be known as mouselook, and kills the game physics. There is a certain speed limit on how high you can spin a ship.

The limit's good enough for you to turn 180 with a single mouse sweep though.

[Kyouryuu]

But today, I think the real question is how you could implement 6DoF on an Xbox 360 or Sixaxis controller. The last big ticket PC games, Unreal Tournament 3 and Crysis, haven't sold exceptional numbers. There can be no argument that console gaming is growing while the PC gaming market is shrinking.

The problem with UT3 is that Epic ***** on the community. They are banning anyone that says anything bad about their product and editor and is flatly refusing to fix a highly buggy editor saying there is nothing wrong.

This really made me chuckle. I've had an issue with Epic ever since the licensing success of Unreal Engine 3 went to their heads. They used to be so good to their community. Now they treat them like dirt that should feel "privileged" that Epic "bestowed" upon them a "godly" toolset... or some such. If they kill off their community, they will destroy the only thing that keeps Unreal Tournament afloat.

[Sirius]

...yeah, there is that. I can't say I expect to join the converts any time soon though; not terribly convinced the console online gaming model is particularly good yet.

The single-player side is pretty much better, though. There are more than a few titles that make me wish I could afford/had space for the extra equipment.

[CDN_Merlin]

Red Faction: Guerrilla Officially Announced
Feb 20, 2008 at 4:56 AM - Gary McLean - 4 Comments
Now in glorious third-person:

THQ Inc. today announced that Volition, Inc.’s critically acclaimed Red Faction franchise will make its open-world, next-generation debut with Red Faction: Guerrilla. Set 50 years after the climactic events of the original Red Faction, this third-person open-world action-shooter will return to Mars and once again re-define the limits of destruction-based game-play. Red Faction: Guerrilla is currently in development for Microsoft Xbox 360 video game and entertainment system from Microsoft, Sony PLAYSTATION 3 computer entertainment system, and Windows-based PC, and is scheduled to ship in THQ’s fiscal year 2009.
\"Red Faction is one THQ’s most successful and critically acclaimed original franchises to date, with a huge global base of loyal fans waiting to join the new revolution,\" said Brad Carraway, director of global brand management, THQ. \"With the game’s unique pairing of true physics-based destruction, fast-paced guerrilla warfare style combat, and a massive world to explore – Red Faction: Guerrilla will redefine the limits of open-world gaming.”

“Red Faction: Guerrilla expands the signature destruction elements of the series and pushes the boundaries of next-gen gaming on a massive, terra-formed Mars where gamers can literally tear down the enemy EDF presence brick by brick,” said Mike Kulas, president of Volition, Inc. ”With a new 3rd person perspective, a full cover system that allows for guerrilla style tactics and a diverse planet to explore we’re excited to revitalize the gripping world of Red Faction for high-definition platforms.”

[CDN_Merlin]

edit: double post.