Tolerance in action

[Nightshade]

Two Christian Evangelists Beaten in Bangladesh

5/17/08 Bangladesh (International Christian Concern) - An employee of Christian Development Alternative, a human rights organization in Bangladesh, was shocked when on March 3, two of his volunteers returned to the office with bloody noses. Andrew Simon Gomes and a fellow volunteer identified as Richard Rafiq, had been distributing copies of the Jesus Film and an evangelistic tract entitled, \"Straight Answer Booklet,\" in a village called Mugda, in the Manda area near Dhaka, the capital of Bangladesh. They were hoping to start a Bible study amongst the young people. Andrew and Rafiq are both Christians who have converted from Islam.

These two men left the Christian Development Alternative office at 8:30am to continue their work of distributing books and CDs. As they reached their destination and started handing out materials, four young men approached them and said that they had received these materials before and that they wanted to know more. Andrew and Rafiq were delighted that these 4 young men were showing such interest, and said they would be glad to try to answer their questions. The four young men responded that they wanted to go to the rice paddy fields to talk, a more remote location.

So the group went to the rice paddies, and the first question that the four young men had was, \"Why do you call Jesus the Son of God?\"

Andrew replied, \"Because he is the Son of God.\"

The leader of the group said, \"Show me in the Quran,\" and as Andrew and Rafiq started flipping to the pages in the tracts which quoted from the Quran, they said, \"Why are you quoting from the holy Quran in this normal book and touching the book without ODU [ritual washing Muslims are required to perform before touching the Quran]? And you are distributing this to people! Why you Murdat [apostate], Kafir [infidel], you are preaching a false gospel. The scriptures are finished. The Quran is the only perfect book from Allah.\"

Andrew and Rafiq tried to explain why they believed that Jesus is the only way to heaven, but the young men refused to listen. They said again, \"The Quran is perfect, and the caliphate [Muslim empire] will be the way to solve the problem. You good boys now make 'Toubah' [Muslim profession of faith] and come back to Islam. Work for us and work for Islam. We will bring the caliphate to Bangladesh.\"

Andrew and Rafiq said, \"It is not possible for us.\" At this, the four young men started beating the two Christians. Andrew and Rafiq tried to run away, but were caught again. One of the four young men identified himself as Minajh said, \"We know everything about you and your organization…where you will go. If you want to live, you have to work for our organization.\" Another member of the group disagreed with Minajh: \"Do not let these Kafir [infidels] go. We must kill them now.\"

At this, the four Muslims began debating amongst themselves. Finally, they reached a conclusion. They gave the two Christians a book about Hizb ut-Tahrir [a well-known Islamic extremist group], and said, \"You will learn about Hizb ut-Tahrir and come to the right way. Wherever you go, we have people there. We have people in every level of the government. If you want to live you have to work for us.\" At this, they let the Christians go.

Andrew and Rafiq went directly back to the office for Christian Development Alternative and told the director, William Nicholas Gomes, what had happened. He advised them to hide for several days. On March 7, they contacted him to tell him that they had fled to India and were going to Chennai to seek shelter. They applied for help at the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office there, but were told that they had to go to New Delhi, but they did not make any progress at the UNHCR office in New Delhi, so they returned to Chennai, where they were finally granted permission to stay in India until November 12, 2009. Andrew and Rifaq are currently living as homeless men in Chennai, India.

[Ferno]

Looks like they did what most people I know only WISH they can do...

[Will Robinson]

Looks like they did what most people I know only WISH they can do...

Which group of they are you talking about?

[woodchip]

So the two Christian men, after doing the lords work for some Christian group, are now living as homeless men in India. What is wrong with this picture?

[Dakatsu]

So the two Christian men, after doing the lords work for some Christian group, are now living as homeless men in India. What is wrong with this picture?

Thats like fleeing from Nazi Germany to the Soviet Union

[Spidey]

So the two Christian men, after doing the lords work for some Christian group, are now living as homeless men in India. What is wrong with this picture?

Only God can answer that question.

[Ferno]

Looks like they did what most people I know only WISH they can do...

Which group of they are you talking about?

people being harrased by certain individuals who come to your door at ten in the morning on the weekend to try and convert you.

[Cuda68]

There morons. They go into an area where the Muslim faith is very strong - what did they think would happen.

[flip]

Bold and fearless morons.

[Testiculese]

What are Christians doing over there in the first place? That's like building a house on a flood plain...and then it floods...and the people cry \"Why did my house go away?\" The similarities are staggering!

[Cuda68]

What are Christians doing over there in the first place? That's like building a house on a flood plain...and then it floods...and the people cry "Why did my house go away?" The similarities are staggering!

Christians spread there word through charity work and when they get into trouble they count on there U.S. citizenship to have the military pull them out. Which makes the U.S. look like crusaders to the Muslims, and we DO IT.
I have said it before and I will say it again, organized religion is very dangerous and needs to be removed from the government, they should do this on there own without our military bailing them out. Walk into a bee hive - get stung - they have no common sense.

[Duper]

lol this is hardly a tragedy. They might have been a bit put out but they are alive and well. They KNOW this is a possibility when they do this stuff.

What's wrong with this picture? Absolutely nothing. It's business as usual. They will be fine.

So, you want to kill door knockers ferno? or just bloody their noses?

interesting analogy Dak. ^^

And Cuda68, it was that kinda tenacity that help first settle this country.

[Ferno]

So, you want to kill door knockers ferno? or just bloody their noses?

Interesting that you took such a leap to infer the first part.

but, I'd give em a good punch if they don't leave after being asked three times, and directly told once that they are no longer welcome and I do no subscribe to their faith.

I'd do it if I wasn't worried with being charged with assault.

[CUDA]

but, I'd give em a good punch if they don't leave after being asked three times, and directly told once that they are no longer welcome and I do no subscribe to their faith.

I'd do it if I wasn't worried with being charged with assault.

[Foil]

Guys, Christian missionaries and aid workers being persecuted, especially in areas which are strongly hostile to Christianity isn't anything new. Religious persecution happens all over the world; Christians and followers of other religions are often killed for their faith.

Yes, they know what they're getting into, and it speaks volumes about their courage that they go into a place and try to help people anyway. It's not ignorance; they believe the good they can do outweighs the possible cost of their lives.

-------

What bothers me about this thread is that it's yet another \"quoted article\" pointed at Muslims... as if they're the only ones who do this. It happens everywhere, by followers of all kinds of religions, and not just in the Middle East.

[Nightshade]

Perhaps there are, Foil, but there is a clear majority of in the nature and regularity of incidents attributed to \"muslim rage.\"

[Cuda68]

What bothers me about this thread is that it's yet another "quoted article" pointed at Muslims... as if they're the only ones who do this. It happens everywhere, by followers of all kinds of religions, and not just in the Middle East.

Being pointed at Muslims is in part a numbers thing also, Christians and Muslims are the two biggest faiths out there by a vary large margin. So it stands to reason they will get knocked the most. Just like MS is the largest out there and gets slammed the hardest.

[Duper]

Perhaps there are, Foil, but there is a clear majority of in the nature and regularity of incidents attributed to "muslim rage."

This is far FAR worse in China.

[Foil]

Perhaps there are, Foil, but there is a clear majority of in the nature and regularity of incidents attributed to "muslim rage."

This is far FAR worse in China.

Yep. It's very misleading to imply that the problem is primarily in the Middle East, or that Muslims are the culprit in the majority of cases.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Well, in the Middle-East the Muslims and the Jews (the Jews historically, if not recently) are the culprits in regard to persecuting Christianity. That's just the way it is. This is certainly not isolated.

It is a case of Muslim aggression. Do with it what you will.

[Foil]

In the Middle East, yes.

I was objecting to the implication that the worldwide problem can be pinned primarily on one group.

[TIGERassault]

...
C'mon guys, can't you get into a serious World Status discussion? There are FAR worse things going on than hostility between members of certain religions (let alone on such a pathetically small scale such as this), and FAR more things that we can actually do something about!

Well, in the Middle-East the Muslims and the Jews (the Jews historically, if not recently) are the culprits in regard to persecuting Christianity. That's just the way it is. This is certainly not isolated.

In the Middle-East, there aren't any other big religions other than Islam and Judaism. There's nobody else to prosecute them!

[Foil]

...can't you get into a serious World Status discussion? There are FAR worse things going on...

Large-scale or small, it's the topic of the thread.

Not every discussion has to be about world-changing events, Tiger. It's just as reasonable to discuss the stuff some may consider 'small'.

...nobody else to prosecute them!

prosecute
persecute

[Spidey]

What are Christians doing over there in the first place? That's like building a house on a flood plain...and then it floods...and the people cry "Why did my house go away?" The similarities are staggering!

I guess the reverse of that would be…what are these Muslims doing over here…

Yea, the nerve of those Christians…they got what they deserved!…

[Sergeant Thorne]

I'll accomplish as little or much as I like with my key-strokes.

In the Middle-East, there aren't any other big religions other than Islam and Judaism. There's nobody else to persecute them!

This is correct. Where do we go from here?

All I was saying is that Muslims are responsible for a lot (not to imply proportion) of violence toward Christians (more importantly non-violent Christians). I thought Foil was saying that there wasn't necessarily a connection there (Muslims being violent toward Christianity), so I was arguing against that. Anyone who thinks Islam is peace need only challenge its ideals, in many places.

[Spidey]

I’ve never accomplished anything other than typing words with my keyboard.

[woodchip]

I'll accomplish as little or much as I like with my key-strokes.

In the Middle-East, there aren't any other big religions other than Islam and Judaism. There's nobody else to persecute them!

This is correct. Where do we go from here?

All I was saying is that Muslims are responsible for a lot (not to imply proportion) of violence toward Christians (more importantly non-violent Christians). I thought Foil was saying that there wasn't necessarily a connection there (Muslims being violent toward Christianity), so I was arguing against that. Anyone who thinks Islam is peace need only challenge its ideals, in many places.

Yet here in America we cannot say anything bad about them as Islam is a peaceful religion

[flip]

I think it's sad that these guys put their selves on the line, presumably, in a peaceful and healthy manner, are now living on the streets as refugees. Someone was complaining about our government having to bail them out, well, you got your wish. They are homeless and all alone, guilty of just trying to help these people we apparently aren't helping enough.

I think it's a shame that these days, our government is so sold out, that they will not stretch their necks out for 2 missionaries, stranded in a foreign land.

It's pointless to argue the Christian-Muslim aspect. All religions clash by nature. I Will however point out a few things. It's obvious that the biggest threat by far to personal liberty and freedom of choice is Islam. It is by nature unforgiving and demands continual humiliation of self. It is also, greatly intolerable of others. Of course every religion has its slackers

[Ferno]

Don't tell me you never wanted to hit someone because they wouldn't take 'screw off pal' for an answer? cmon...

[roid]

Yet here in America we cannot say anything bad about them as Islam is a peaceful religion

in America it is.

What, you've never heard of Christian mobs slaughtering thousands in other countries?
On your part this is either Naïvity or a Double standard.

[Testiculese]

What are Christians doing over there in the first place? That's like building a house on a flood plain...and then it floods...and the people cry "Why did my house go away?" The similarities are staggering!

I guess the reverse of that would be…what are these Muslims doing over here…

Yea, the nerve of those Christians…they got what they deserved!…

I've never had a Muslim knocking on my door telling me I should become Muslim so I don't go to hell. Never had them come back 10 minutes later and try to push themselves into my house claiming that some god is what I need in my life or I suffer unending misery in eternal hell.

What do you think would happen in this country if Muslims started knocking on doors in West Virginia? Georgia? Kentucky? Tennessee?

Indeed. Were you really serious?

I think it's sad that these guys put their selves on the line, presumably, in a peaceful and healthy manner, are now living on the streets as refugees. Someone was complaining about our government having to bail them out, well, you got your wish. They are homeless and all alone, guilty of just trying to help these people we apparently aren't helping enough.

They were there to convert Muslims to Christianity, not to help people. If they were there to help people, they would have shut their mouths and just helped people. No one should have been aware they were Christian. Just that they were white. And helping people.

Now they're refugees for trying to change a country's culture (However ineffectual). Gee, who woulda thunk it?

[Spidey]

Testi, you never said anything about “what” they were doing…just that they don’t belong there, are you implying all Christians are a nuisance?

And, no I wasn’t serious.

[woodchip]

Yet here in America we cannot say anything bad about them as Islam is a peaceful religion

in America it is.

What, you've never heard of Christian mobs slaughtering thousands in other countries?
On your part this is either Naïvity or a Double standard.

When? Back during the crusades? Inquisition?

[Foil]

Guys, come on.

The topic was religious persecution, and the point being discussed was that it isn't solely a Muslim one worldwide.

No one said anything like \"all Muslims are peaceful\" or \"all Muslims are evil\".

Can we get back on topic?

[flip]

Testi you assume alot. First off, the article never mentions their race once. No way to tell what color they are. Also, it's very possible they were born and raised in Bangladesh, seeing as they are Muslim converts themselves.
It plainly states that they, the Christians were the ones approached by the Muslims, not the other way around. More than likely, these 2 guys were sitting on a corner, passing out tracts to people who walked by. Some people accepted them and some didn't. Some may stop and talk awhile, some won't.

Mark 16:15-16

And he said unto them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that does not believe shall be condemned.

Another aspect of this you seem to miss. Think about something your passionate about. Now, someone else says to you, you must keep this to yourself. You cant talk about this to anyone. That goes against my whole idea of being a free man. I can say, do, and go where I want, as long as I do no harm to others in the process. That is in stark contrast to: Join us or we'll kill you. =/

[Testiculese]

Are all Christians a nusiance? No, no, only those that decide they're going to harass me about the Tooth Fairy being better than Santa Claus.

Flip, I meant white as in not-arabic. Sorry 'bout confusion. US is always portrayed as a white Christian nation, etc., and I was typing too fast. It also doesn't matter where they're from. They could have been born and raised there and that's completely irrelevant.

I didn't miss any aspect. I am passionate about guitar. I don't go around to piano stores and hand out guitar flyers and bray about how much better Guitar is than Piano. If I did, and continued to show up and hand out guitar flyers and keep talking about how much better guitars are than pianos, I'll piss people off eventually, and eventually enough so that they will forceably throw me out. Now I'm not allowed in the piano store anymore. That makes me a victim?! Hogwash! (Same goes if I used to play piano, now I play guitar, and spout the same crap)

The \"join us or we'll kill you\" is just as retarded as \"Believe in God or go to hell\". You wouldn't happen to notice this, would you? The timing is a bit different, I know...

[Foil]

A quick aside, only partially related to the topic:

I am passionate about guitar. I don't go around to piano stores and hand out guitar flyers and bray about how much better Guitar is than Piano. If I did, and continued to show up and hand out guitar flyers and keep talking about how much better guitars are than pianos, I'll piss people off eventually, and eventually enough so that they will forceably throw me out. Now I'm not allowed in the piano store anymore.

Interesting. I've heard the same analogy in a sermon on the effectiveness of different styles/methods of Christian evangelism.

I just find it a bit amusing that Testiculese's expression of a stance against religious evangelism is so close to something I heard in a message promoting it.

[flip]

Ok I agree to a point. In this case though, it's obvious that the Muslim's were the ones looking to confront the Christians. I myself know a bunch of Christians that get on my nerves also. They are loud , boisterous, and don't know when to shut up. Some Christians think of themselves alot more important than they are. God only honors HIS word, not the word of others. That's the main reason I quote scripture instead of a long drawn out explanation of my own.

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Christians, who are overzealous without full knowledge, do more harm than good. They actually think they can convince someone about Jesus, when the word plainly states: \"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.\"

So, yes they are bound by their beliefs to tell others what GOD said and as soon as someone says they don't want to hear it, they should cease and desist. I fell in to that trap when I was younger, and all it brings about is contention.

[flip]

The \"join us or we'll kill you\" is just as retarded as \"Believe in God or go to hell\". You wouldn't happen to notice this, would you? The timing is a bit different, I know...

I missed this at first. All I will say is this. If a Christian says \"Believe or go to Hell\" He is at least leaving it to you to make that decision. I look at it like this. If I'm wrong, I've lost nothing. I lived according to a standard that actually makes me feel good about myself. I sleep well at night and wake up with a smile on my face. If I'm deluded at least it's in a good way. If you are wrong though. Then you have lost everything. I will say this to you then. Listen to no man, but at least investigate further. If there is a GOD, and he made himself known through Jesus, I'm sure you could get to know him without any man's help at all. I f you don't care, well, that's fine to. You have every right to make that decision.

That is my point summed up. A christian challenges you with their belief. They say: \" Believe or go to Hell\", then leave that up to you. The muslim says \"Believe or be punished, by us.\" I see a very stark contrast of those two.

[Testiculese]

They're both threats. They're both meant to instill fear into the person to coerce them into the different viewpoint. The only difference is the timing. Since Islam today is where Christianity was 500 years ago, to me they mean basically the same thing.

Go move down south to some smallish town in, say, Kentucky. Don't go to church. Visit all the stores, talk to all the locals. Try to get friendly. You'll get the questions/statements. \"So, <dramatic pause> we didn't see you in CHURCH last Sunday?\". Then the snubs, then the outright rudeness. A few of the nutjobs will threaten you. I've seen it before.

It's the same thing. Just less nutjubs in Christianity to resort to immediate violence. Or...same number, just more restrained nutjobs because violence sorta-isn't encouraged here like it is in those countries. Keep in mind that violence in those countries is like litigation here. Same thing, different method. You can kill a man with litigation (lose his home, children wife and freedom) in the USA. Or get shot in Istanbul. I'd rather be shot, takes less time.