For the love of a child

[woodchip]

It seems in Aussie land that at one time the govt would take Abo children and place them in white homes for a \"proper\" upbringing. Little did I know something similar had taken place up north of us in Canada. What I have a hard time fathoming is how any govt official thinks so well of him/herself that they presume to know what is best for someone else:

\"Aged four, he was sent from his home to a series of state-run church boarding schools, where he was stripped of his language, religion and culture.

He was physically and sexually abused.

When he returned home 12 years later, his mother did not recognize him.

\"To apologise for taking me away from my family, for losing my culture and the loss of my childhood and the loss of my mother's love... How does one apologise for that?\" he asks.\"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7438079.stm

I wonder if the church's in question were catholic churchs.

[CDN_Merlin]

It is a sad thing. Not sure who is responsible but it's a disgrace. They will be in my city today getting an apology from our Prime Minister.

Will this make the pain end? I doubt it, but it might start the healing process.

[Ford Prefect]

Our local newspaper is running a series on the residential school system. It is difficult to imagine the mind set of the people of the time. Children, usually around 10 were taken from their family and sent to a residential school, usually church run. There was no option, they were not volunteered, they were taken.
The intention of the school was to make them \"white\". They were told their culture was savagery, that their parents were ignorant, superstitious drunks and they were forbidden on pain of beating to use their native language. Physical abuse was normal, emotional abuse rampant and sexual abuse commonplace. Pee your bed and you would stand in the cafeteria with the urine soaked sheet over your head as punishment.
Today the Federal government is preparing a formal apology to the First Nations people and there is a lot to be apologetic about.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/feat ... 371e469432

[Cuda68]

Organized religion is dangerous when in control. All of them

[CDN_Merlin]

Organized religion is dangerous when in control. All of them

I agree 100%.

[CUDA]

Organized religion is dangerous when in control. All of them

Agreed, too many times Christ's Followers stand in the way of and do great harm to his teachings..

[Cuda68]

I think it was stated in the Bible and other teachings to avoid false profits also. I think they knew the power to abuse the various teachings existed and used this line as a safe guard to follow the path laid out properly. I was raised Christian but as an adult I have not practised my religion in 30 years so I am very, very poor in remembering its teachings.

[CUDA]

It was stated many times. in fact false prophets were to be stoned to death for ANY error.

[Ferno]

I think it was stated in the Bible and other teachings to avoid false profits also.

But the true profits come from a good paying job!

[CUDA]

I think it was stated in the Bible and other teachings to avoid false profits also.

But the true profits come from a good paying job!

Ok that deserves a HEH

[Aggressor Prime]

Well, the government has no business being involved with Catholic schools. The Catholic Church is above and beyond man made governments and therefore can run itself and its schools independent of governments. Anyway, considering government was involved, the corruption probably came from the Canadian government and not the Church. If people only let the Church act without boundries as it was made to act, then it can prevent these types of events. The Canandians probably had Catholic priests reporting to them due to the way the funding seems to have worked. Private schools > public schools, that is what this tells me. That, and make teachers go through better psychological checkups. It is better to catch and lock up these evils to society before they commit their crimes.

[Ferno]

The Catholic Church is above and beyond man made governments and therefore can run itself and its schools independent of governments.

Oh that is SO sigged. ROFL.

[woodchip]

AP, you are so lost one would be hard pressed to even wonder where to start looking for you.

[CDN_Merlin]

AP, you are so lost one would be hard pressed to even wonder where to start looking for you.

I agree. AP, you really need to open your eyes and read more. YOu are so far off the mark it's not even remotely funny.

[Aggressor Prime]

What? The Catholic Church is independent of governments. Priests must make a vow of obedience to their bishop and the Pope. They never make a vow to a government. Therefore, Church authority outranks any other.

[TIGERassault]

I think what Aggressor is trying to say is that things involving the Catholic Church should be kept separate from things involving the government.


Or, at least I hope that's what he's trying to say. I don't really know anymore...

[woodchip]

What? The Catholic Church is independent of governments. Priests must make a vow of obedience to their bishop and the Pope. They never make a vow to a government. Therefore, Church authority outranks any other.

Riiight...thats why you had catholic pedophiles abusing children and when discovered the church "authority's" simply moved the offending priest to a new parish where the priest now had new meat to play with. In the end some of the priest where taken to task by the government and put in jail while the church had to pay 100's of millions in restitution. The pedophile priests never answered to any authority but their own sick desires. Church authority does not outrank that of the government nor of the legal rights of people transgressed by the clergy.

Hope this starts your thinking process down a new path.

[Ford Prefect]

The residential school system was funded by the Canadian government and run by churches. That is some by the Catholic church, some Anglican, some Presbyterian, some United Church of Canada. All schools had the same aim, and here I quote from the Canadian government's apology, \"To kill the Indian in the child\". This phrase was deliberately included as it was used commonly at the time of the residential system. The Catholic church was only one of the offending religious organizations.

The Canadian government's apology to Canada's First Nations people in full:

Mr. Speaker, I stand before you today to offer an apology to former students of Indian residential schools.

The treatment of children in Indian residential schools is a sad chapter in our history.


In the 1870's, the federal government, partly in order to meet its obligation to educate aboriginal children, began to play a role in the development and administration of these schools.

Two primary objectives of the residential schools system were to remove and isolate children from the influence of their homes, families, traditions and cultures, and to assimilate them into the dominant culture.

These objectives were based on the assumption aboriginal cultures and spiritual beliefs were inferior and unequal.

Indeed, some sought, as it was infamously said, \"to kill the Indian in the child.\"

Today, we recognize that this policy of assimilation was wrong, has caused great harm, and has no place in our country.

132 schools financed by the federal government were located in all provinces and territories with the exception of Newfoundland, New Brunswick and PEI.

Most schools were operated as \"joint ventures\" with Anglican, Catholic, Presbyterian or United Churches.

The government of Canada built an educational system in which very young children were often forcibly removed from their homes, often taken far from their communities.

Many were inadequately fed, clothed and housed.

All were deprived of the care and nurturing of their parents, grandparents and communities.

First Nations, Inuit and Metis languages and cultural practices were prohibited in these schools.

Tragically, some of these children died while attending residential schools and others never returned home.

The government now recognizes that the consequences of the Indian residential schools policy were profoundly negative and that this policy has had a lasting and damaging impact on aboriginal culture, heritage and language.

While some former students have spoken positively about their experiences at residential schools, these stories are far overshadowed by tragic accounts of the emotional, physical and sexual abuse and neglect of helpless children, and their separation from powerless families and communities.

The legacy of Indian residential schools has contributed to social problems that continue to exist in many communities today.

It has taken extraordinary courage for the thousands of survivors that have come forward to speak publicly about the abuse they suffered.

It is a testament to their resilience as individuals and to the strength of their cultures.

Regrettably, many former students are not with us today and died never having received a full apology from the government of Canada.

The government recognizes that the absence of an apology has been an impediment to healing and reconciliation.

Therefore, on behalf of the government of Canada and all Canadians, I stand before you, in this chamber so central to our life as a country, to apologize to aboriginal peoples for Canada's role in the Indian residential schools system.

To the approximately 80,000 living former students, and all family members and communities, the government of Canada now recognizes that it was wrong to forcibly remove children from their homes and we apologize for having done this.

We now recognize that it was wrong to separate children from rich and vibrant cultures and traditions, that it created a void in many lives and communities, and we apologize for having done this.

We now recognize that, in separating children from their families, we undermined the ability of many to adequately parent their own children and sowed the seeds for generations to follow, and we apologize for having done this.

We now recognize that, far too often, these institutions gave rise to abuse or neglect and were inadequately controlled, and we apologize for failing to protect you.

Not only did you suffer these abuses as children, but as you became parents, you were powerless to protect your own children from suffering the same experience, and for this we are sorry.

The burden of this experience has been on your shoulders for far too long.

The burden is properly ours as a government, and as a country.

There is no place in Canada for the attitudes that inspired the Indian residential schools system to ever again prevail.

You have been working on recovering from this experience for a long time and in a very real sense, we are now joining you on this journey.

The government of Canada sincerely apologizes and asks the forgiveness of the aboriginal peoples of this country for failing them so profoundly.

[Spidey]

Wow, your still allowed to say “Indian” in Canada?

[CUDA]

I hate appoligists, appoligize for what you did, or what your children did, not what your government did hundreds of years ago

[Ford Prefect]

The residential school system ran until the 1960's not hundreds of years ago. There are still 80,000 of the 200,000 children taken and put into residential schools living today. Considering how many died of TB and other diseases that is probably the majority of those that lived through it.
When I was young in B.C. Indians had no vote, could not be lawyers or accountants, could not hold public office. They were and in many ways still are second class citizens of Canada. That apology is just a small part of what we as citizens of Canada owe the first owners of this land. It is not ancient history, it is my history.

A difference between Canada and the U.S. Here in Western Canada in particular.
We did not conquer the natives by force, there were no Indian Wars. They and their culture were mostly destroyed by disease. We did not make them sign treaties giving up their claim to the land. We just herded the weakened survivors onto reservations and in our arrogance didn't even bother to get them to scratch an X on a piece of paper agreeing to it. Unlike the U.S. we can't hold them to agreements made either in ignorance or under coercion. We have no agreements showing us as legal owners of the land and now we have to work them out with educated and worldly wise native leaders.

[flip]

The Catholic Church is above and beyond man made governments and therefore can run itself and its schools independent of governments

Christ specifically instructed HIS followers to be in submission to Government.

Every person must be subject to the governing authorities, for no authority exists except by God's permission. The existing authorities have been established by God.

[Aggressor Prime]

What? The Catholic Church is independent of governments. Priests must make a vow of obedience to their bishop and the Pope. They never make a vow to a government. Therefore, Church authority outranks any other.

Riiight...thats why you had catholic pedophiles abusing children and when discovered the church "authority's" simply moved the offending priest to a new parish where the priest now had new meat to play with. In the end some of the priest where taken to task by the government and put in jail while the church had to pay 100's of millions in restitution. The pedophile priests never answered to any authority but their own sick desires. Church authority does not outrank that of the government nor of the legal rights of people transgressed by the clergy.

Hope this starts your thinking process down a new path.

The Church at its highest seat does not support pedophiles. Sure, there are bad bishops, but these bishops when discovered by the pope are kicked out. The fault lies with priests, if involved, not with the Church.

@flip

I'm not saying Catholics are to ignore government. Sure, we are to follow government, but our ultimate authority remains the Church. And the government really never goes against the Church, at least not in the US. Catholics don't report to the government, they obey laws, they pay their taxes, they fight for their country when they see the need, they protect borders, but they are citizens of the Vatican before they are citizens to a government. In this case, Catholic schools should not be funded by the government. With funding by the government, a Catholic school by following the money has to report to two leaders. Catholic schools need to remain private, not go public. With two leaders, there can be contradictions, be it not allowed to teach the bible, or not being allowed to teach the Church's stance against contraceptives, or the Church's stance against gay marriage, or the Church's stance against abortion. In a government funded schools, teachings that go against the Church creep in.

[flip]

ultimate authority remains the Church

Ok I've got to split hairs here.Jesus Christ should be known as the ultimate authority. The Church is representative of his body, his existence here on earth, but HE is the head. So final authority should and does rest with him. I'm sure we agree on this, but I state it for the record.

I agree that the state should not interfere with a private school to a point. The people there have agreed to raise their children with those beliefs and that is their right. I also feel the same way about public schools. I am totally against state sponsored prayer. I believe that, under the constitution, no one should be hindered from praying, but no way I would want unbelievers teaching my children about GOD or leading them in prayer. That right and responsibility remains in the family.

I know this is somewhat off topic, but I hate labels. Catholics, protestants, baptists. All this disagreement between people who supposedly believe the 66 books that comprise the Bible. In that, is why a neutral government is needed and has the preeminence. Too many weirdos and crooks out there for any church to have autonomy.

People have too much loyalty to their Church and not their GOD. I've seen it in many churches. They have more fear of the Pastor than God himself. Why do I say that? I've seen people, when the pastor is around are total saints, acting like children to get his approval, and when he's not around, well thats a different story. They will say things they wouldn't say when he's not around. Church has almost become like a club or even a cult nowadays. Exclusive and pretentious. No wonder people are turned off, because most have been turned away. That pisses me off because people judge GOD poorly because of some weak willed individual who just wants to belong somewhere.

[Aggressor Prime]

ultimate authority remains the Church

Ok I've got to split hairs here.Jesus Christ should be known as the ultimate authority. The Church is representative of his body, his existence here on earth, but HE is the head. So final authority should and does rest with him. I'm sure we agree on this, but I state it for the record.

I agree that the state should not interfere with a private school to a point. The people there have agreed to raise their children with those beliefs and that is their right. I also feel the same way about public schools. I am totally against state sponsored prayer. I believe that, under the constitution, no one should be hindered from praying, but no way I would want unbelievers teaching my children about GOD or leading them in prayer. That right and responsibility remains in the family.

I know this is somewhat off topic, but I hate labels. Catholics, protestants, baptists. All this disagreement between people who supposedly believe the 66 books that comprise the Bible. In that, is why a neutral government is needed and has the preeminence. Too many weirdos and crooks out there for any church to have autonomy.

People have too much loyalty to their Church and not their GOD. I've seen it in many churches. They have more fear of the Pastor than God himself. Why do I say that? I've seen people, when the pastor is around are total saints, acting like children to get his approval, and when he's not around, well thats a different story. They will say things they wouldn't say when he's not around. Church has almost become like a club or even a cult nowadays. Exclusive and pretentious. No wonder people are turned off, because most have been turned away. That pisses me off because people judge GOD poorly because of some weak willed individual who just wants to belong somewhere.

Of course Jesus/God has ultimate authority, but in the Catholic Church, there is a belief that the Pope brings the word of God to the world, having been given the authority to lay down the laws of God. They are laws from God, but presented by the Church. In this way, the Church has ultimate authority, but fear not, as we Catholics believe this authority presents God's message and nothing less. So yes, God is the source of power, the Catholic Church is the messenger and enforcer.

[flip]

but in the Catholic Church, there is a belief that the Pope brings the word of God to the world, having been given the authority to lay down the laws of God

Scary.Thats exactly what I'm talking about. You do realize that that was the whole reason Jesus came in the first place? That no other man was found fit to reveal The Father and his nature but one sinless man. Jesus Christ.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't catholics confess to the priest and then he goes to the Father and prays on their behalf? Which is exactly what Jesus is doing. He is our intercessor to the Father on our behalf. What bothers me is this. Who chooses the Pope? In Jesus's church, he said that we are all equal and HE was the go between.

I AM the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.

Seems to me maybe the Pope has taken more than his fair share on his plate. No offense, but that order that you describe is totally unbiblical.

[Aggressor Prime]

but in the Catholic Church, there is a belief that the Pope brings the word of God to the world, having been given the authority to lay down the laws of God

Scary.Thats exactly what I'm talking about. You do realize that that was the whole reason Jesus came in the first place? That no other man was found fit to reveal The Father and his nature but one sinless man. Jesus Christ.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't catholics confess to the priest and then he goes to the Father and prays on their behalf? Which is exactly what Jesus is doing. He is our intercessor to the Father on our behalf. What bothers me is this. Who chooses the Pope? In Jesus's church, he said that we are all equal and HE was the go between.

I AM the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.

Seems to me maybe the Pope has taken more than his fair share on his plate. No offense, but that order that you describe is totally unbiblical.

We confess with the priest present, although during that sacrament, the priest acts in persona Christi, Latin for in the person of Christ. Ultimately, we confess our sins to God, not to a priest. The priest is just the mediator, if you will.

Also, the Biblical reference can be found Matthew 16:8-14
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew16.htm

Jesus is the way, the Pope is the one who leads us on this path.

[Sedwick]

[quote="Aggressor Prime]The Church at its highest seat does not support pedophiles. Sure, there are bad bishops, but these bishops when discovered by the pope are kicked out.[/quote]

I just wish Pope Benedict hadn't sought immunity from prosecution in the US for the abuse (or that Bush hadn't granted it).

Getting back on topic, I seem to remember this whole Canadian Indian assimilation thing in a movie I saw in 1992. It started with an Indiana Jones-looking guy leading an abduction of some Indian girls and just before he gets back on their seaplane the girls' mother confronts him. He starts rattling off some boilerplate legal justification for the action according to some law, and stops when the mother spits in his face. He then tells her, "Look lady, it's 1937. They can't remain ignorant savages forever!" The movie then follows the older girl's "educational" journey, clashing with other students, including one who becomes her friend, learning English, getting her period (and celebrating with a private Indian ritual), and eventually fleeing. The closing captions say the last of these schools was closed in 1988. Very enlightening, and I probably wouldn't have caught it if my family hadn't vacationed in Ontario that summer...

[flip]

I Tim., ii, 3-6)\"God our
Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus

There can be no other mediator than Jesus.

Also why have someone \"act\" as Christ (The Anointed One) when you can talk to him yourself. It's also my understanding that the Holy Spirit or (Spirit of Truth) is the one who leads us on this path. I was unsure at one point but now I'm convinced. If most Catholics believe as you do then I am scared for you.

The whole reason Jesus came was to establish a personal relationship with people. An emphasis on personal. With all this side stepping, just how close can you 2 be? I had rather sit down, all by myself, and have a conversation with God.Jesus already made that possible by dieing in my place. Why do I need yet another? I hope I'm not coming across as too harsh, but, we have fundamental differences and yet believe in the same God. One of us must be wrong. This is why I think it's better to \"listen to no man\" and rather learn directly from the source.

[Ford Prefect]

Yet another scripture debate thread hijack. Don't you guys ever get over it.

[flip]

LOL isn't America grand with its concept of free speech. I was merely replying to AP's statement that the church was not subject to the laws of the land which the government enforces. In his other replies things were said that I believe are grave errors and it led that way. By no means was I trying to hijack this thread. If you have anything to offer then by all means, do.

[Ford Prefect]

I'm never surprised when a subject that focuses on the actions or problems of a country other than the U.S. wanders off topic after a couple of posts here. The only exception is when the topic involves Islam then the Christian vs Moslem debate ignites again. Otherwise the stereotypical American's lack of interest or understanding of the \"rest of the world\" prevails.

Oh well, that's just the way it is. (insert shoulder shrug emoticon here)

The operation of the residential school system was a \"joint venture\" of the government and the churches of the day but the attitudes that spawned the policy of \"killing the indian in the child\" belonged to the general public as well. Thankfully our attitudes have evolved to the point where even the general public now recognizes that this policy was wrong. Or even if you still believe that First Nations children should be assimilated into \"white\" culture you don't do it by abducting them, locking them up in huge disease ridden institutions and beating their culture out of them.

[TIGERassault]

I'm never surprised when a subject that focuses on the actions or problems of a country other than the U.S. wanders off topic after a couple of posts here. The only exception is when the topic involves Islam then the Christian vs Moslem debate ignites again. Otherwise the stereotypical American's lack of interest or understanding of the "rest of the world" prevails.

I'm never surprised either. But mostly because every thread in the E&C tends to wander off-topic very, very quickly.

[Spidey]

\"Otherwise the stereotypical American's lack of interest or understanding of the \"rest of the world\" prevails.\"

Or, the insults begin...

[Ford Prefect]

Spidey, you're not claiming to be a stereotypical American are you?

[Spidey]

Who said you were insulting me?

[grizz]

The U.S had their own versions of these schools:

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/phoenix/

[Aggressor Prime]

I Tim., ii, 3-6)"God our
Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus

There can be no other mediator than Jesus.

Also why have someone "act" as Christ (The Anointed One) when you can talk to him yourself. It's also my understanding that the Holy Spirit or (Spirit of Truth) is the one who leads us on this path. I was unsure at one point but now I'm convinced. If most Catholics believe as you do then I am scared for you.

The whole reason Jesus came was to establish a personal relationship with people. An emphasis on personal. With all this side stepping, just how close can you 2 be? I had rather sit down, all by myself, and have a conversation with God.Jesus already made that possible by dieing in my place. Why do I need yet another? I hope I'm not coming across as too harsh, but, we have fundamental differences and yet believe in the same God. One of us must be wrong. This is why I think it's better to "listen to no man" and rather learn directly from the source.

Well, humble I have this to defend the Roman Catholic faith. I do not have the strength to find God alone. If no one showed me the way, I would be lost. But the Catholic faith has showed me the way. The Church has set up an institution to see God clearly and correctly, to take him in every Sunday, to confess my sins to him as often I want, to let him guide my every action. If I tried to receive God without the Eucharist, I only receive the shallowness of my imagination. I have no authority to bring God before me magically. I can pray to God, yes, but I can't change bread into his body so that I may take him in. Only those given authority by the Church can do that, an authority Jesus gave to the Church and the Church alone. I can pray to God, yes, but I am not worthy to go before him alone to confess my sins. I need a human hand beside me taking on the person of Christ to help my weak soul confess my sins. I am only a man. I need someone with God's authority to help me. The priests within the Roman Catholic Church have this authority. Therefore I need these figures of authority, or else I seek God alone, and seeking God alone can only get someone into trouble, for the devil can make many illusions that can make someone shout for Jesus and at the same time shout for death. The Church allows people to see Jesus correctly, a man who brought life, not death.

[flip]

I see where your coming from and of course that is your choice. I will say a few things though.

I have no authority to bring God before me magically

That authority is the Word Of God. Exactly why it was written was so you could have faith in God's word and not the word of others.

I need someone with God's authority to help me. The priests within the Roman Catholic Church have this authority

As do you my friend. There is no preferential treatment from God. All believers have the full authority of Jesus name. There are no \"special\" ones, and if they present themselves in that way, I would be very wary.

Before Jesus died, the whole world was without God. He could not fellowship with them because of their sin. Out of the whole world, only the Jewish people were dealt with, and the only reason for that was because of one man, Abraham. Of the Jewish people, God only dealt directly with the Prophet, Priest or King. It was only after Jesus died for all mankind, that that separation could be done away with. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, we no longer need a Priest to go on our behalf. Now we have direct access to the Father. That was the whole reason. To restore fellowship with man.

[Aggressor Prime]

I see where your coming from and of course that is your choice. I will say a few things though.

I have no authority to bring God before me magically

That authority is the Word Of God. Exactly why it was written was so you could have faith in God's word and not the word of others.

I need someone with God's authority to help me. The priests within the Roman Catholic Church have this authority

As do you my friend. There is no preferential treatment from God. All believers have the full authority of Jesus name. There are no "special" ones, and if they present themselves in that way, I would be very wary.

Before Jesus died, the whole world was without God. He could not fellowship with them because of their sin. Out of the whole world, only the Jewish people were dealt with, and the only reason for that was because of one man, Abraham. Of the Jewish people, God only dealt directly with the Prophet, Priest or King. It was only after Jesus died for all mankind, that that separation could be done away with. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, we no longer need a Priest to go on our behalf. Now we have direct access to the Father. That was the whole reason. To restore fellowship with man.

The whole world can be saved, but the whole world does not have authority. That authority is not that cheap. If it was, then God must love chaos over order, as the world is still in a state of chaos in the order of ideas. Authority must be kept in the holy grasp of the Church in order for it to be kept correct, for there is much evil in the world. Just look at what Jesus said about false prophets who will speak in his name. These false prophets, as the Catholic Church takes them, are all religions who proclaim "Jesus" yet do not obey papal authority. Anyone can proclaim Jesus, but only the few choosen by God can proclaim him correctly. Your belief has blinded you from seeing its flaws so badly that you can't see the contradictions between all the non-Catholic Christians. If everyone who believes in Jesus have the same authority as the pope, then God contradicts himself and the world and all existences ceases to be, for without order, there cannot be being.