New Computer Questions

Plague · Post by **Plague** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:03 pm

I'm working on getting some good parts together to build a new PC. I'm going to wait for the socket 939 CPUs and motherboards to come out before I do this (as well as the next generation video cards). Looking at the price so far, it is getting expensive.

So...

Click here to see what I've got so far

1. Does SATA make any observable difference or should I go with the cheaper IDE drives? Also, I thought of downsizing that to 80GB, and possibly adding another 80GB drive later and use RAID.
2. Case comments anyone?
3. I really like the feel of my laptop keyboard, hence the viewsonic slim keyboard. However, I had a thought that they might be less ergonomic than a normal keyboard (even though I haven't yet had any problems using my laptop). Help?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:16 pm

Forget the floppy drive, get a DVD burner instead.

Serial ATA makes no difference either good or bad in performance of the current generation drives vs IDE.

Plague · Post by **Plague** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:18 pm

I could drop the floppy. I could just use the one on the laptop if I really needed to. But... DVD burner? I looked at www.newegg.com and couldn't find anything for a decent price (<$70). I'd rather drop the money on the CPU/MOBO/VIDEO.

Capm · Post by **Capm** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:31 pm

Get a case based on the Cheiftec cases, top notch quality.

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:56 pm

1) Get a better PSU, at least 430w.
2) RAM pick is questionable.
3) Definitely go with WD Raptor 74GB over that ordinary WD drive.
4) Integrated LAN is fine, but get a good sound card!

my thoughts so far. Th rest depends on the motherboard/cpu/overclockacbility u r gonna have.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:57 pm

1) PSU is fine, 380 watts is more then enough for a modern PC wich will rarely draw more then 200 watts.
2) Mushkin RAM is some of the best and most reliable RAM on the market.
3) The WD raptor is faster then normal IDE drives because it has a 10,000 RPM rotational speed instead of the standard 7,200 RPM of IDE drives, it also makes more noise, requires more cooling, and costs more then twice as much as a IDE drive with the same capacity.
4) Unless you are an audio freak and also want every last frame per second in a game with audio enabled, onboard sound works perfectly fine.

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:08 pm

Krom wrote:1) PSU is fine, 380 watts is more then enough for a modern PC wich will rarely draw more then 200 watts.

Yes. Only reason I have one is because I have dual procs (which suck up an additional 80 watts or so).

Although I would say that there are several reasons to go with faster hard drives. Loading times for games and heavy applications, as well as compiling things. But if you don't care about those, then you don't need the faster drive.

AceCombat · Post by **AceCombat** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:11 pm

Krom wrote:Forget the floppy drive, get a DVD burner instead.

id put a 6-in-1 media card reader

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:24 pm

Krom, don't start, ok? lol

1) I have a 430w, and when u overclock, 380 is not enough. A few more bucks for 430w is worth it.
2) That ram does not overclock as well as some others, like corsair, or ocz pc3700 gold series 2. Or if he is on the budget, there is this adata ram, that costs like 210$ for 1GB, which is rated to do DDR500 speeds, and some get it as high as DDR600 1:1 (with some insane voltages though).
3) It doesn't make more noise and while it may run hotter, that's irrelevant, and the cost is worth the extra performance, considering how the hard drive is the slowest part in the system.
4) Onboard sound usually doesn't support many standards, like eax3, and so on, it all depends on the codec used. In any case, a 55$ audigy2 is a better choice. If u r an audio freak, you buy professional expensive sound solutions, but if you are a gamer you don't go with onboard sound, even nfroce2 sound does not support some standards used in current games.

If he is building a state of the art pc, he may as well get good components instead of slow stuff. Otherwise he needs to build a value pc.

oh, and gerat advise about the useless dvd burner instead of a much mroe useful floppy drive. I'd like to see him flash his videocard's bios from a dvd burner..

u just argue for the sake of arguing, you must be bored.

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:48 pm

anyway, don't listen to krom, and don't listen to me, and do your own research:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/
http://www.ocforums.com
http://www.abxzone.com/forums/index.php?s=
http://www.hardforum.com/

i visit these 4 daily, and some others i'll post later

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:50 pm

I have a 350 watt and it is able to handle a overclocked Geforce FX 5900 Ultra, an Athlon XP running at 2.4 GHz (163% its default clock speed), two hard drives, a CD burner and a DVD burner, plus 80 & 120MM fans.

On the memory, lets review his choice of CPU, a 939 pin Athlon 64 chip. So, it has its own built in memory controler that will run the memory at 400 MHz regardless of how overclockible the memory is or what the core speed of the processor is. Spending more money on PC3700 that runs on slower timings is a waste of time.

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:54 pm

the internal controller doesn't have to be used, iirc

you can read some reports about that mushkin ram here:

http://www.abxzone.com/forums/showthrea ... adid=66732

it won't overclock at all. And if he won't be overcloking, why would he go with such expensive ram? it's ridiculous...239$ for 512...jeez, i pyaed 340$ for a gig of PC4200...there is a bunch of alternatives, like teh famous twinmos bh-5 ram, and these adata pc4000 modules, cheap and perform great at tight timings and overclock like champions.

as for the power, read the forums krom, there are poeple upgrading from 430 and 480w psus, to 550 and 600...i am not gonna argue wiht you, let him make his own choices.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:01 pm

Max_T wrote:the internal controller doesn't have to be used, iirc

you can read some reports about that mushkin ram here:

http://www.abxzone.com/forums/showthrea ... adid=66732

it won't overclock at all. And if he won't be overcloking, why would he go with such expensive ram? it's ridiculous...239$ for 512...jeez, i pyaed 340$ for a gig of PC4200...there is a bunch of alternatives, like teh famous twinmos bh-5 ram, and these adata pc4000 modules, cheap and perform great at tight timings and overclock like champions.

ROFL, you dont have to use the internal memory controller, LMAO that is one of the most retarded things I have heard to date from someone claiming to give advice on computers. Why on earth would you purposely not use the most important advantage the Athlon 64 has over its Intel counterparts? (less then half the memory latency)

Also, learn to read dumbass, he's getting 1 GB worth (2x 512).

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:12 pm

no, the most retarded thing would be advising to get a dvd burner isntead of a floppy, dumbass..

As for the memory controller, gee, lets figure out why amd was going with a ddr333 controller and right before the 1st release they bumped it up to the ddr400...oh yes, b/c latency is not everything...but being locked into running one speed is great, isn't it? I'd take ddr550 with higher latency over ddr400 with lower latency any time.

and 239$ is still too much for that ram, even for a gb...he can get some corsair 3500c2 for 210$, and that ram has bh-5 chips, which means it can go as high as 250 1:1 at competetive timings.

How about you do some research before giving out advises.

Anyway, he asked for advice, not fro a flame war...u gave him your opinion, i gave him mine..it's up to him who to trust...stop your childish flame wars and grow up.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:20 pm

If you are up to measuring levels of retardedness, flashing ones BIOS for no good reason is pretty high up the charts.

If the memory controller on the Athlon 64 doesnt support speeds over DDR400, then it doesnt support speeds over DDR400 period, it either runs it at 333 or 400, there is no 433, 466, or 500 MHz setting on it. Getting RAM that can do 250/500 MHz, wow, what a supprise; its still pointless because it will never be run over 200/400 MHz.

Last time I had a use for a floppy drive; hmmmmmm, its been about 2 years!

I'll stop the 'flaming' when you stop selling bad advice.

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:24 pm

krom, wtf is wrong with you? u think flashing a bios is retarded? How about flashing a 9800 pro into Xt and getting a nice speed bump and temp monitoring...how about flashing to a herculese Xt bios from sapphire Xt bios, and getting another speed bump? How about flashing your videocard with a bios with increased clocks, so u wouldn't have to run any overclocking software? I am not even talking about flashing motherboard bios, since most of them now have windows flashing programs.

A newbie would not undertsand teh benefits, there r thousands people benefiting from flashing bios on their videocard, from speed increases to added features, to problem fixes...i am surprised u don't know anything about this, oh wait, i am not...i rest my case.

As for the memory controller, taht's wy i said there will be motherboards with extrenal memory controllers, to support higher memory speeds than ddr400.

200watt...heh...go read about people volt modding their 380w and 430w antec PSUs, b/c their 3.3v rail gets overloaded very quickly and they don't know what else to do to stabilize their systems. Hell, if i would do a vdimm mod on my ic7, i'd go as high as 290-295FSB 1:1, which would definitely require me to get a 500w psu (too bad this ic7 only has 2.8v vdimm, and even that is undervolting slightly). Some info here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... adid=14059
Stabilizinf 3.3 rail is a must, especially if you run high FSBs.

You are the one giving the worst advices...

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:28 pm

Plague, sorry we hi-jacked your thread...

like i said, do your own research, u'll qucikly find out what you'll need and what are good choices.

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:09 am

/me PimpSmacks Krom and Max_T

---- Back on Topic ladies----

Nothing wrong with what you have so far

If you going to overclock choose another case(that one is geared for silence not cooling) but I see that stealth fan there sooo... shhhhh!

Futute plans maybe...? you would certainly be getting Kingston Hyper-X RAM

Go with a LiteOn CDRW and a seperate LiteOn DVD player....... plenty of room and worth the effort

CPU/Mobo thats up to you I would suggest a P4 2.4C and a Canterwood Mobo

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:40 am

hahaha, I never do my own research. I don't know where... I mean, I don't even know what gfx card is the best... if I have a question like what gfx card I should upgrade to I ask here. And I think that's what Plagy is doing.

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:19 pm

now u know where, i posted all the needed links above...i can give you 4 more, just for videocards, lol

speaking of videocards, looks like 6800 ultra requires two separate power plugs and nvidia recommends a 480w psu to be used with it...ouuuch!

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:25 pm

Yeah, after reading that, I would suggest a 550 watt supply just to keep a beast like that in check, I expect the offering from ATI will require about as much power.

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:33 pm

Krom wrote:Yeah, after reading that, I would suggest a 550 watt supply just to keep a beast like that in check, I expect the offering from ATI will require about as much power.

probably

Plague · Post by **Plague** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:09 pm

Wow...

Ahem. Anyway, I probably won't be doing any overclocking. I know how, and I've messed with it a little in some of my other computers, but I'd really rather have this one run quieter since I'll probably be taking it with me to college (not to mention that I don't have the time to mess with it and game).

I do my own research. Mostly in the areas of the CPU/Video/Motherboard. I know I could get a WD Raptor. However, I'm on a budget. In the end it's just whatever I can afford to buy. But for now, I can just drool a bit.

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:42 pm

heh heh

don't be saving on the hdd...i have the raptor in my main pc and i have a wd 120GB 8MB in my other pc, and i can feel the difference. Unless you are running raid 0 with those regular WDs, then the performance is gonna be similar...this might be an option too...for the price of raptor, u can get a couple regular hdds and run them in raid 0...but then again, u can get dual raptors...heh heh

drooling yet?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:09 am

RAID0 doesnt actually do much for a operating systems performance, the raptor will win out vs the RAID0 1200JBs because most of the time the files for an operating system are under the 64k stripe size.

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:46 am

gonna do the PSU mods tomorrow....wish me luck

)

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=726156

my rails now read a little low...

3.3v = 3.23
5v = 4.89
12v = 11.74

the mod is pretty easy, i'll do it to see if my vdimm stops undervloting, the freaking thing is set at 2.8v, but reads 2.75-2.77...

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:50 am

You'd be crazy to go IDE.

SATA is the way to go.

Make sure any SATA drive you get is "native SATA".

Logitech MX900 or MX700 is your mouse.

Warlock · Post by **Warlock** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:06 am

Mobius wrote:You'd be crazy to go IDE.

SATA is the way to go.

STFU

SATA is a POS and the drives cost alot more than IDE, a 60gb SATA is 70$ i can get a 120gb drive for 80$

Also most mbs i have seen onley have 2 SATA ports thats onley 2 drives vs 2 IDE ports 4 drives so if u want more drives u half to get an addon card

Edit fix typo

Admiral LSD · Post by **Admiral LSD** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:24 am

You can't really hook 4 devices up to a standard two port IDE controller anyway so it's not like you're really losing anything in that respect. You're right though, restricting SATA to only one device per channel really just sweeps that problem under the carper without adequately fixing it. A much better idea would be to implement SCSI-style daisy chaining or more importantly, adding the ability to have two devices share a chain without interfering with each other especially when they're two different speeds. Of course ideally we'd all just be using SCSI and the problem wouldn't exist but SCSI still has that niggling little problem of being priced out of most sane peoples reach.

Delkian · Post by **Delkian** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:32 am

Max_T wrote:1) I have a 430w, and when u overclock, 380 is not enough. A few more bucks for 430w is worth it.

I'm not going to dwelve into your debate over what's enough power for crazy overclocking and modding because I have no knowledge about that, and it's also pointless because Plague originally didn't mention anything about overclocking and later confirmed that he isn't interested in that.

However, I would like to point out that by just comparing the capital W figures you aren't telling everything about the PSU. It's only what the manufacturer happens to rate that product, it doesn't tell the real stable maximum output or how much power the supply can push at different voltages.

If you aren't at least telling the brand and model of the power supply with your watts, you aren't telling particularly much. I've got the impression that Antecs are of reasonable quality, though maybe not the absolute top of the line.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:10 am

speaking of not delving into debates, I'm not going to delve into the SATA one either -- I'm not going to bother with technical aspects at all. I'll only give my own experience.

I work part-time assisting my department's sysadmin, which means (among other things) I get first crack at all the new hardware. A few days ago, we picked up a Dell Dimension XPS (3.4 GHz P4, 2 GB RAM, 120 GB SATA HD, 256 MB Raedon 9800) for the department chair, and I had the task of installing XPPro and all the other software, and putting the system through its paces. On hard-drive intensive tasks, this system just blew away my expectations. I don't know what it is about the SATA drives that makes them that way, but this thing screamed through every HD-intensive task I gave it.

I don't know how much money it's worth to you to get a HD with that level of performance, but I'd at least advise giving it a good hard look before you turn it down.

Plague · Post by **Plague** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:22 pm

Max_T wrote:and 239$ is still too much for that ram, even for a gb...he can get some corsair 3500c2 for 210$, and that ram has bh-5 chips, which means it can go as high as 250 1:1 at competetive timings.

Mind pointing out where I can find a gig of that stuff for $210? I'm having major trouble finding it for that price.

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:45 pm

Woohoo, i just successfully moded mu PSU accroding to teh guide i posted above. Now the rails read:

3.3v > 3.34
5v > 5.14
12v > 12.11

under load....nice

)
will report in a few days to see if the overclocks have improved.

EDIT 1: two instances of prime95 while playing ut2004 with maxed out settings, rock solid voltages, 3.3v doesn't drop below 3.31. Great mod!

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:48 pm

unfortunately they don't make 3500c2 anymore, sicne bh-5 was discontinued...that adata ram i was talking about was 105 per 512MB stick...but newegg saw it selling, and i think they raised the price a bit, it'll drop back down though. EBay has 3500c2 on sometimes, or you can buy it from a forum...it may not be new, but it still comes with a lifetime warranty

Plague · Post by **Plague** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:35 pm

I found some at newegg by OCZ: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDe ... 950&depa=0

Is that better?

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:23 pm

You need to decide if you will be overclocking or not. That makes all the difference. Personally, i think that price is still too high. Either add a little more and go with a high end ram, or get something cheaper and run it at 400MHz like korm was talking about. In any case, wait until teh reviews come out for the motherboard you are gonna get, and then pick you RAM. It doesn't make any sense picking it out right now, when it might not even be compatible with teh board you are gonna get.

Krom had some valid points...if you will only run 400Mhz, there is no need for pc3500...get some pc3200 with the tightest timings possible, and you'll be good to go. If you will be overclocking, you need some good ram, something like geil pc4400 series or their golden dragon series...they can be found under 300...well worth another 25$ per 512MB stick.

Pick a motherboard 1st, see what it can do, then decide on the RAM.

Plague · Post by **Plague** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:32 pm

Gotcha, I'll resurrect this thread then.

Aggressor Prime · Post by **Aggressor Prime** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:25 pm

GeForce 6800 PCI-Express version, or the NV45, comes out at the end of this year. Also, I would suggest getting Western Digital Raptors. When you stress your system, you will notice a difference. Its like 5400RPM vs 7200RPMs. Every second counts. Also, the Athlon 64 FX-53 is a great overclocker (2.6GHz, no sweat). Hopefully that will carry on to the new sockets. Last, Lite-On's new DVD burners are going down (around $100).

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:54 pm

Look harder warlock: my suppliers show NATIVE SATA versions of the same capacity IDE drives, with MUCH higher transfer rates at a price premium of about $15-$30 depending on size.

I recently built a system with dual 120GB Native SATA drives, and Sandra SiSoft tells the story: completely killing comparable IDE drives. They are NOTICEABLY faster in the real world too.

Like a said: You'd be crazy to go IDE.

DON'T buy anything which isn't NATIVE SATA. These drives are faster that "IDE" drives with a SATA tranlation device on board.

Even if the ONLY reason you went SATA is because of the tiny cables, that'd be reason enough to use SATA. Fortuntely, there are more reasons...

Verran · Post by **Verran** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:00 pm

Do Not get a Raptor. I did, big mistake - it died 32 days after I purchased it. Luckily the store manager was considerate and let me trade it for a different drive.

A co-worker also bought a Raptor - it died in 35 days.

They're too unstable. Personal experience talking here.