Tinkerbell come Fly Me Away

[MD-1118]

but honestly, I would not have a personal problem stringing them up by their Nads till the fell off.

This reminds me of an interesting scifi book I read last year about an alternate reality with Neanderthals instead of humans. As a punishment for crime, they castrated the criminals. This served a three purposes - one, it discouraged crime, two, it removed the genes responsible for the criminal actions from the gene pool, and three, the resulting hormonal imbalance made the criminals extremely docile and gentle. I've thought since then that castration would be the perfect punishment for today's society.

As to rape, and pedophilia at that, I think it's horrible. I am one hundred percent against it. One of my best friends was raped, and it pains me to think of it.

[Tunnelcat]

In my opinion, rape is the ultimate in defilement to have forced on anyone. For a child, it would be the ultimate nightmare. Castration and imprisonment sounds like a viable punishment to me, not death. Unfortunately, this is still an irreversible punishment if the wrong person was ever convicted. To most men, (tell me guys if this is incorrect thinking) losing part of their manhood might be a more sufficient deterrent to pedophilia than the death penalty.

This wouldn't be applicable to children, but as a woman, if I were raped, I would feel so much hate and loathing toward the perpetrator, that if and when he was ever caught, I would want to have to have the personal privilege of doing the castration on the attacker myself, without anesthesia. There is NO forgiveness and NO quarter given for the rape of anyone from my court.

[Spidey]

Well…you see that’s one of the earmarks of a civilized society, that being the ability to show mercy, even when someone deserves none.

[Tunnelcat]

And yet still, some people are calling for the death penalty for child rapists (not murderers). Are they civilized?

[Spidey]

The death penalty is far more humane than what you just suggested.

[Tunnelcat]

Perhaps not, but if you could put yourself in the shoes of a rape victim, how do you think would you react. Would you want justice or revenge? Would you feel so dirty and violated that nothing else mattered but payback? This kind of violation wouldn't bring out logical thinking, but pure, raw, emotional rage. Not exactly civilized, I agree. Since your a male, Spidey, could you possibly imagine such a violation to your person? Maybe. Wouldn't it be worse than death itself?

[Sergeant Thorne]

It's a misunderstanding to say that the death penalty is uncivilized. I swear there is so much that is lost on our generations... The death penalty is very civilized, in its rightful place.

I don't, myself, know if child rape is deserving of death. I feel like my understanding on the matter is incomplete, not that it's something I'd like to dwell on to any great length.

Personally, if I made the laws, I might look on it as a crime that is prone to lead to murder, and institute the death penalty for that reason alone. I wouldn't have any problem with that.

tunnelcat, you're talking about vengeance, but we're talking about justice (and protecting society). I think it's important to have strong feelings on matters like this, but I think the emotions you express are actually wrong. Granted, I'm not a women, and for that reason you're closer to this topic than I could be, from an emotional standpoint, but I'm certain you're taking it too far nonetheless. I'm not saying your opinion of the perpetrator should necessarily change, but I believe your attitude would only serve to compound the emotional damage of the incident, in that it leaves you bitter and without mercy (\"mercy\" seems a very awkward word, but my vocabulary fails me). Better to retain mercy while the perpetrator is executed by an authority. The healing would be that much more swift.

I would say castration and imprisonment at least, but I don't know that that's enough.

[Spidey]

Yes, I’m a male, and men get raped all the time…so lets not go there. As far as being raped and getting the chance to get revenge on the perpetrator myself…I can only “hope” to have the restraint to show mercy. And yea, I’m sure that during the act, and for a short time after, it would prolly feel better to be dead, but I would also hope to get over it at some point and move on.

I’m not real big on the perpetual victim thing.

And BTW, that’s why we have laws outside of emotional thinking. (at least in theory)

[Tunnelcat]

Yes, you guys are right, it's vengeance, not justice. That's why we don't allow vigilante squads to run around and met out justice. Emotions can't be trusted to judge others. You'll have to admit however that a lot of people have resorted to vengeance when they thought that the law didn't serve justice.

I'm not sure that I would actually have the stomach to mutilate someone in revenge, sitting here right now in a detached calm state of mind. However, I'm not so sure how I would react if a terrible act were to be committed upon my person. Would I be rational enough to stop myself from exacting revenge, especially if the perpetrator lost the upper hand during the attack and the chance presented itself right then and there? Probably not. Sometimes we don't think about the consequences of our actions until after the poop hits the fan and we've calmed down. Secondly, would I be able to exact revenge later when he was caught and I'd had a chance to calm down? I really don't know there. The horrible memory of the attack would tend to fester and invade my everyday thoughts.

If I have such an extreme opinion of rapists, just think of the reaction that the parents of a child rape victim would have. Most parents would probably react far more strongly than if they had been victimized themselves. Parents have an innate desire to protect their children, at all costs, dammed the consequences. Punishing rapists, especially child rapists, is always going to be a murky question in a civilized society that wants to protect itself from these criminals. It's such an emotional topic here that it's difficult to balance justice with the desire for vengeance.

[Sergeant Thorne]

... especially if the perpetrator lost the upper hand during the attack and the chance presented itself right then and there?

Let's make sure not to confuse self-defense with vengeance. It's entirely a matter of what's in your heart. Personally I try not to cultivate a vengeful attitude, so that if and when things do get rough, it won't be an issue. I can drop someone who's messing with one of my younger brothers or sisters (or a complete stranger, for that matter) without being vengeful. The end result is that if it's not vengeance that's driving your actions you can do what's necessary and no more.

Parents have an innate desire to protect their children, at all costs, dammed the consequences.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, in my book. I'm a fan of "old fashioned", and when it comes to kids I don't think you should feel the need to have a rule book in front of you when it comes to how you can protect them. You do it how you need to do it. But then again there's a line you can cross and you'll be going for vengeance.

I feel bad making it all sound so complicated. It's really a lot more complicated to write out than to know. Just some basic moral principles applied to potentially complex situations.

To recap on the main topic, my only focus in all of this is prevention, and it's a very complex thing. That's why I am for the death penalty. The death penalty is a very unpleasant and extreme thing. I feel like the justice system in this country is being dumbed down for no reason other than personal distaste. A lack of stomach for things that are unfortunately necessary, and an increasing dearth of wisdom to realize why they are necessary. It's people who are not living in the real world effecting the lives of those of us who are, and for the worse.

[Spidey]

You would have to go quite a long way, to prove that the death penalty is “necessary”.

Actually there is very little empirical evidence, to prove that the threat of punishment deters more than just the casual criminal.

If only it were that simple.

[Sergeant Thorne]

As simple as needing \"empirical evidence,\" or as simple as putting people to death for intolerable actions?

Who said it was simple?

To accurately determine whether it is necessary or not would require, as I said before, a complete understanding of the consequences of the crime. So you're right that I would have to go a long way to prove it.

As for evidence that it has an effect. I don't think that's so difficult to find. It just stands to reason that it has an effect. I guess the question that should be asked is what effect would justify it in your opinion? It's not going to perfect society and everyone in it, obviously, but it will at least give pause to anyone considering the same action, and in my opinion that's enough in the case of some crimes.

What about the death penalty for murder? What do you think of that, Spidey? To me that's the most obvious. Lock someone up for taking another person's life? How is that justice? A man that killed 3 people got several life sentences, in a neighboring county, around here. He just killed 3 people in their own house, why should he live?

How do you find justice? If you kill three people all in their 70s, should you get their life expectancy minus their ages combined in prison? What is justice?

[Spidey]

Well I think justice must be defined by the society, and I’m sure that whatever punishment is used, some people won’t agree that’s its stiff enuf.

I don’t agree with an eye for an eye, to me that’s an antiquated biblical system, I lean toward a more modern system of incarceration, where the length of time, is determined by the severity of the crime. (what ever happened to hard labor, for the most heinous of crimes)

I also firmly believe in a system of justice that punishes the criminals instead of a system of deterrants that would undoubtedly remove many of the rights we hold dearly, as free citizens.

As far as the death penalty for murder…It would depend on the circumstances, I certainly wouldn’t advocate the death penalty for most murders.

And I’m definitely against any kind of torture.