Obama's faith is not in question...

[Nightshade]

...but its identity is.

Mr. Obama noted that when Republican vice presidential nominee Gov. Sarah Palin \"was forced\" to talk about her pregnant 17-year-old daughter, he issued a forceful statement to reporters that the line of inquiry was \"off limits.\" But he said the McCain campaign tried to tie him to \"liberal blogs that support Obama\" and are \"attacking Governor Palin.\"

\"Let's not play games,\" he said. \"What I was suggesting -- you're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith. And you're absolutely right that that has not come.\"

Mr. Stephanopoulos interrupted with, \"Christian faith.\"

\"My Christian faith,\" Mr. Obama said quickly.

Politicians make gaffs all the time, however it, more often than not, reveals who they really are.

McCain did the same thing not too long before:

\"I will conduct a respectful debate,\" McCain told the crowd at Texas Instruments, per ABC News' Bret Hovell. \"Now, it will be spirited because there are stark differences. I am a proud conservative, liberal Republica--- conservative Republican,\" he said, catching himself. \"Hello?\" he said as the crowd laughed. \"Easy there.\"

Take two: \"Let me say this: I am a proud conservative Republican and both of my possible or likely opponents today are liberal Democrats!\"

If McCain is a christian, he's lying (or fibbing at the very least) and that's against the teachings of his faith- however if Obama is muslim and is lying about it, it's perfectly permissible as \"Al-Takeyya.\"

Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:

\"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.\" Surah 3: 28

According to this verse a Muslim can pretend to befriend infidels (in violation of the teachings of Islam) and display adherence with their unbelief to prevent them from harming him.

If Obama really is christian, I could care less- but islam should be guarded against for it is beyond a religion- it is a supremacist political/philosophy/ideology that covers all aspects of human life and it desires power over everyone. Either you are a believer or you are to be subjugated or killed. You are not a muslims equal and never will be in their eyes unless you become one yourself.

[Sirius]

Yeah, there really isn't a realistic argument that Obama could be Muslim. I did hear of some school-related document that was written by his father before he could have made any religious choices, but considering his recent history/religious activities, it isn't realistic to claim he's a Muslim unless he's some kind of covert operative. O.o

[Will Robinson]

...it isn't realistic to claim he's a Muslim unless he's some kind of covert operative. O.o

Yea, the Manchurian prophet

TB it isn't really fair to say - Muslim = "Either you are a believer or you are to be subjugated or killed."
That is the philosophy taught by far too many Muslim clerics and radical factions, like all of the Wahhabi which are a hair trigger away from controlling Saudi Arabia, and of course al Queda, and numerous mosque's around the globe that are recruiting terrorist operatives, and fundamentalist insurgents sending out women and children with suicide bombs strapped to them in many places to kill infidels.....but not all Muslims think that way.

[Gooberman]

You've gone off the deep end TB.

[Lothar]

You've gone off the deep end TB.

X2

Obama's version of Christianity is weird... but he's not a Muslim.

(But he does blow the "Quayle test" pretty much daily. If Dan Quayle made the same gaffes, the media would've had him for lunch, but they seem content to mostly ignore Obama for the same sort of merbal valfunctions.)

[Foil]

TB, can you give us a citation/link for this?

------------

Honestly, reading the quote again, the implication that Obama's reference was some type of Freudian slip (\"he let his real beliefs slip out!\") doesn't really fit.

If you assume he really meant to refer to \"Christian faith\", the statement doesn't even make sense; there's no reason to point out that McCain hasn't attacked his Christianity.

It makes considerably more sense to me that given the topic (unfounded attempts to tie him to certain blog statements), Obama was making reference to the exact same phenomenon: his continued battle against unfounded claims that he holds a Muslim faith.

------------

I'm likely not going to vote for Obama-Biden, but it's not because he's somehow secretly Muslim.

[Lothar]

TB, can you give us a citation/link for this?

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/07/v ... im-on-abc/
Has the video. "Here’s the full exchange with Stephanopoulos, making it perfectly clear that when he says “my Muslim faith” he’s referring to how the people smearing him see him, not how he sees himself."

[Nightshade]

I'm not saying Obama is definately a muslim- in fact it's quite possible that he has no real faith at all and merely portraying a \"person of faith\" for purely cynical political reasons.

The practice of Al-Takeyya is a notable tactic in the muslim world and one that all of us should be aware of. As many of you know from my posts, I don't regard \"moderate\" muslims as \"true followers\" of islam- IF...and its a big IF, they are not engaging in Al-Takeyya. In many cases this \"moderation\" could merely be a form of Al-Takeyya itself.

[Pandora]

It makes considerably more sense to me that given the topic (unfounded attempts to tie him to certain blog statements), Obama was making reference to the exact same phenomenon: his continued battle against unfounded claims that he holds a Muslim faith.

that's what I thought as well.

[Lothar]

The practice of Al-Takeyya is a notable tactic in the muslim world and one that all of us should be aware of.

True, but irrelevant.

Obama spent 20 years in a Christian* church, raised his kids there, and so on. If he pulled off that sort of deception for 20 years, he's not going to be dumb enough to blow it in such a silly way. [EDIT: this is the same argument with the same amount of credibility as "George Bush is an evil genius and an idiot at the same time".] I think it's far more likely that he's actually Christian* and that the "my Muslim faith" line is exactly what it sounds like it is in the video I linked to -- a comment about the sort of rumors being spread about him.


* not necessarily one that follows Christ's teachings, just one that thinks they do.

[Canuck]

You've gone off the deep end TB.

I concur. Seems that he has made himself an expert on Muslim religions... and that his view is that every Muslim has a hidden agenda of world domination and killing "Infidels". Something in your water down there TB? You really believe this?

TB if you feel so strongly about this why don't you do us all a favor and head out to the Middle East and participate in the New Crusade. Maybe you'll meet your true destiny.

[Ferno]

You've gone off the deep end TB.

viewtopic.php?t=14315

[Sirius]

* not necessarily one that follows Christ's teachings, just one that thinks they do.

You can make this comment about pretty much any church though... the chances anyone gets the doctrine "just right" are pretty minimal; there'll always be a few mistakes here and there. The only question is how big they are.

(And that's a tough question too. Some might think the charismatic movement is onto something; others might think it's a step away from the loony-bin. Who's right? Um...)

[flip]

I can't say I'm in total disagreement with TB. Radical Islam is a serious threat, but taking things out of context lends you no credibility my friend.

[tranquill]

It's interesting how the Israelis view Obama. He receives much support
both from Jewish liberals and arguably the right-wing AIPAC, but his
middle name bothers Israelis a lot. Also, there are doubts whether he is
really a Muslim apostate. Here is an article which analyzes Obama's
similarity to early Zionists:
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/obama-aga ... shness.htm What do you think of the parallels?

[Sirius]

Veeery far-fetched, and I find their repetition of \"Hussein\" all the time a little quaint. (I'm not sure his first name was even mentioned in the article.) Then trying to cast him as ex-Muslim, which is highly dubious... wow.

Getting past the tilt, there's really not a lot of substance that article has to say. The closest thing is the comparison to Carter, and that does some dubious hand-waving too (Obama reminds us of Carter, who we believe was anti-Semitic, therefore Obama is anti-Semitic too!). They seem to forget that he's already stated that America's relationship with Israel is in his mind \"non-negotiable\". I'm not sure where the idea that an Obama presidency means no hope of a resolution with Iran comes from either. Sure, you can't guarantee his brand of diplomacy will work, but the last two years or so have demonstrably shown that the high-horse Bush brand of diplomacy (which McCain would likely continue...) doesn't work. The Iranians just ignore talk of sanctions and mutter vague threats at Israel and America. Sure, sanction them all the way to autarky - they'll still work on their nuclear projects, whether dangerous or not.

(On another note, I really have to suspect the former. Why go through so much trouble for civilian nuclear energy? Unless I underestimate Iran's willingness to take hardship just to prove a point.)

[Will Robinson]

Obama one day was incredulous that Bush considered Iran a threat to our security and said \"Iran was no threat\"... two days later he said \"I've said for years that Iran is a grave threat\".
So it's no wonder that people who live and die, and have done so for decades, under the attacks of Iranian trained and officially sanctioned terrorists walking their streets would be a little unsure of what to think of Obama!

[flip]

Well I read the article which is yes filled with a lot of conjecture and supposition. The one thing I found that is indisputable is this and I quote:

an inexperienced black fellow of radical religious affiliation.

I've seen some of those sermons by his \"former\" pastor. There's a post here with the links somewhere. My opinion is this. After listening to just one \"sermon\" of his \"former\" pastor, you can only be in agreement with with what his pastor was saying or totally dismayed. If I, being a white man, sat for 20 years listening to that, I would probably hate the white man too.

[Sirius]

Obama one day was incredulous that Bush considered Iran a threat to our security and said "Iran was no threat"... two days later he said "I've said for years that Iran is a grave threat".

Source? Things like this are usually taken out of context.

[Beowulf]

Wow I remember why I don't post here.

TB - seriously? Are you seriously bringing this up?

Barack Obama could attend the church of the flying spaghetti monster for all I care. Why is religion even a ★■◆●ing issue? I can understand why it would influence the mindless American masses but come on!

These are the same people that walked the streets of Denver in late August with signs saying \"Barack HUSSEIN!! Obama is a terrorist!\"

Forgive me for giving you the benefit of the doubt, ThunderSheep.

[flip]

Beowulf, I figure the reason you don't post here much is because saying \"your opinion sucks\" must get boring even to yourself. Try to mix it up next time and use \"YEAH!! What he said\"

[Will Robinson]

Obama one day was incredulous that Bush considered Iran a threat to our security and said "Iran was no threat"... two days later he said "I've said for years that Iran is a grave threat".

Source? Things like this are usually taken out of context.

The context was back in the spring on the campaign trail and he was speaking off the cuff to a liberal audience and with the intent to ridicule conservatives who site Iran as a threat to our security he tried to contrast Iran with the Soviet Union and said Iran was like Cuba or Venezuala. He said the 'tiny countries like that couldn't hurt us', that 'they have small military budgets'...as if we were to believe the only way they could hurt us was to march an army across the globe and invade America! It was a moronic line of reasoning!!

Two days later, to a more pro-Israel audience, having to look down at his cue cards every third or fourth word, he recited that "Iran is a grave threat", and said "they have an illicit nuclear weapons program" and sited their long running involvement in exporting terrorist orginazations and attacks that could upset the middle east and cause a third world war!

I think, because of the way he had to refer to the cards, his handlers had corrected him and made sure he changed his tune.
The question is, what does he really believe and which Iran would he react to if they start something or ignore his mad diplomatic skillz? The one that can't march it's army underwater all the way to our shores or the Iran that invented the martyr's suicide attack ,literally, and could easily start a nuclear war in the middle east?

[Nightshade]

Barack Obama could attend the church of the flying spaghetti monster for all I care. Why is religion even a **** issue? I can understand why it would influence the mindless American masses but come on!

The democratic left seem to be spooked by Sarah Palin's religious views and bring them up at every opportunity. Should there be a double standard when it comes to Obama's views? \"Obama's our guy, so we really shouldn't care or pry...but this Palin chick, wow...she's scary.\" Does it matter or doesn't it?

Does it matter that Obama attended a church for TWENTY years with Jeramiah Wright preaching his highly slanted venom or not?

[Ferno]

The democratic left seem to be spooked by Sarah Palin's religious views and bring them up at every opportunity.

and here I thought they were simply copying the same rove play....

[Beowulf]

The difference is not subtle TB.

Barack Obama does not bring his religion into his politics. Sarah Palin does. That's where it crosses the line.

[Lothar]

Barack Obama does not bring his religion into his politics. Sarah Palin does.

What, fundamentally, is different between them? How does Palin bring her religion in but Obama doesn't?

[Beowulf]

Her \"We're doing God's plan\" spew about Iraq, her stance on abortion.



This is her pastor saying that Alaska is a refuge for the Christians in the \"last days.\"



If the conservatives are going to crucify Obama for what his pastor said then you have to expect us to call Palin out for her nutty beliefs as well.

edit: these are only two things I've found in a five minute break from studying

[Will Robinson]

Didn't Palin leave that church many years ago seeking a more normal church and congregation? (I'm not sure which church you linked, how old is that video?)
And didn't Obama stay at his church and leave only when the details broke in the media?

Those would be differences worth noting for a number of reasons if you are going to judge their character by the church they attend....

[Sirius]

She left the Wasilla Assembly of God (which was a nut-house, I'd agree) about six years ago. She now states that she \"doesn't consider herself Pentecostal\". Technically, Obama would never have left his church if they weren't getting the attention they were from the press.

Take it as you will. I'm not aware of very much of the character of Obama's former church, except of course for Reverend Wright.

[Will Robinson]

Personally I wouldn't want to listen to that crap that Wright was spewing but the only thing Obama did wrong that I don't like is his reaction and poll driven back and forth on the issue. I think I would have just said - 'Hey, it's a black thing. Some preachers are prone to big time hyperbole to fire up the congregation. Elect me and that's one more thing I may be able to do, I may be able to get both sides a little closer and rid the country of some of this division that is a residual of bad days gone by. If you're worried about my heart don't be, I'm straight up proud to be an American and promise to judge each and every one of you by the content of your character not the color of your skin. Please afford me the same respect.'

And I would have gone right back to the church the next Sunday and inside my mind I would have been daring anyone to challenge my decision....
he could have lead on the issue instead of doing a political rope-a-dope.

[Lothar]

Her "We're doing God's plan" spew about Iraq

She didn't DECLARE that it's God's plan we went to Iraq.

She said to PRAY THAT it would be God's plan.

There's a huge, huge difference. The fact that neither you nor the ABC commentators noticed it is a sad commentary.

her stance on abortion

There are plenty of secular reasons to be against abortion -- many of which also apply to being against war. Yet being anti-abortion is always cast as a "religious" stance, while nobody has a problem seeing pacifism as a perfectly reasonable secular stance. When's the last time you criticized the Mennonites or Amish for their "religious" pacifism?

This is her pastor saying that Alaska is a refuge for the Christians in the "last days."

Former pastor. She left the church 6 years ago because it was too "extreme".

If the conservatives are going to crucify Obama for what his pastor said then you have to expect us to call Palin out for her nutty beliefs as well.

I expect people to hold the same standards for both.

Obama equals Palin on the first point (he's spoken of praying to be an instrument of God's will.) The second is an attempt to dismiss a legitimate social position as "religious". And Obama comes off worse than Palin in the third -- he didn't leave his extreme church, and still spoke very highly of his nutty pastor until the political pressure mounted. (One can hold that both are OK or both were wrong, but I have trouble seeing the argument that says Obama was OK and Palin was not.)

[Bet51987]

She didn't DECLARE that it's God's plan we went to Iraq.

She said to PRAY THAT it would be God's plan.

There's a huge, huge difference. The fact that neither you nor the ABC commentators noticed it is a sad commentary.

Lothar, no one can declare that it's God's plan since God will not make himself known. But since prayer is the expression of things hoped for the difference is not as huge as you make it to be.

I won't put words in her mouth but to me her meaning was pretty clear.

Bee

[Sergeant Thorne]

Lothar, no one can declare that it's God's plan since God will not make himself known.

6 Then He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream.

7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

But most pertinently:

17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

But since prayer is the expression of things hoped for the difference is not as huge as you make it to be.

My oldest--my son, Track--he's a soldier in the United States Army now. He's an infantryman. And.. um... and so Track send his love also, to his former Nanny: Christie. And, Track--Pray for our military--he's gonna be deployed in September, to Iraq. Pray for our military men and women who are... striving to do what is right also, for this country. That our leaders, our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is... from God--that's what we have to make sure that we're praying for: that there is a plan and that that plan i--is God's plan. So... uh, bless them with your prayers: your pra--prayers of protection over our soldiers.

With regard to this issue, Glenn Beck's guest provides a particularly enlightening perspective:
Glenn Beck on Sarah Palin: Obama, Liberal Media Angry and Afraid; Us Weekly

[Ferno]

I seem to remember God being not too happy about false prophets, and I'm sure God has a bone to pick with the false prophet that declared war on the brown people.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I'm sorry Ferno, but your critical thinking skills need a lot of work, and I can't be bothered to show you where so you'd best just start at the beginning.

George W. Bush is no prophet.

If we ever get anyone running for office who hears voices and does what they say, or claims to govern by \"God\"'s direct decree, then we should be justifiably leery, but that's not at all what this is. What the Left and the Left-leaning media are doing, aside from being out-and-out hypocritical, is trying to suppress/demonize genuine (Christian) faith in a rather subtle way by only doing it when an individual of faith runs for office. Basically we can personally believe whatever we want, but they're going to try to make it incompatible with representative positions.

[Lothar]

Another scary religious person, praying and hearing God's voice:

\"The prayer that I tell myself every night is a fairly simple one: I ask in the name of Jesus Christ that my sins are forgiven, that my family is protected and that I am an instrument of God's will. I'm constantly trying to align myself to what I think he calls on me to do. And sometimes you hear it strongly and sometimes that voice is more muted.\"

























- Barack Obama

[Will Robinson]

Another scary religious person, praying and hearing God's voice:

"The prayer that I tell myself every night is a fairly simple one: I ask in the name of Jesus Christ that my sins are forgiven, that my family is protected and that I am an instrument of God's will. I'm constantly trying to align myself to what I think he calls on me to do. And sometimes you hear it strongly and sometimes that voice is more muted."

























- Barack Obama

Well done!

I love the smell of hypocrisy ignored in the morning....smells like, DNC kool-aid.

[Spidey]

We have a whole bunch of Arabs in this part of town, and there all as white as me, especially the Lebanese who own the car lot across the street.

[woodchip]

You want scary, how about this:

\"(CNN) – The Obama campaign is preparing rolling out a new line of “faith merchandise” – the latest move in an ambitious effort to win over religious voters.

“Check out the Believers for Barack, Pro-Family Pro-Obama, and Catholics for Obama buttons, bumper stickers and signs….” says Obama Deputy Director of Religious Affairs Paul Monteiro in an e-mail obtained by the Beliefnet Web site.\"

http://tinyurl.com/5dmo7a

Some of you have disparaged me in the past for using the term \"The Messiah\" when referencing Obama. Perhaps now you understand why. When you start using the word \"believers\" a cult persona is trying to be cultivated, the last thing we need in a political candidate.

[Spidey]

Just something else that will bite him in the ass, every time his campaign mentions religion, everyone will remember who his Pastor was, and what he said about “Guns & Religion”.

The Democrats found God, after their last loss.