Ayers.....

[Bet51987]

How honest is this site in ref to Ayers?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008 ... ayers.html

Conclusion


Voters may differ in how they see Ayers, or how they see Obama’s interactions with him. We’re making no judgment calls on those matters. What we object to are the McCain-Palin campaign’s attempts to sway voters – in ads and on the stump – with false and misleading statements about the relationship, which was never very close. Obama never “lied” about this, just as he never bragged about it. The foundation they both worked with was hardly “radical.” And Ayers is more than a former \"terrorist,\" he’s also a well-known figure in the field of education.

Obama Girl

[Spidey]

Hitler was also well known in the field of education.

[Will Robinson]

Obama's campaign has changed his story numerous times.
Every time some of the facts get reported he drops his excuse and re-works it to include his version of what has leaked out...
The bottom line is He and Ayers have lots in common and most of it is ACORN and other similar groups.
that article seems to reveal the timeline but also puts the best possible spin on it, leaves out quotes from Ayers that expose his socialist/marxist preferences and completely leaves out that there are different branches to ACORN and that Obama has always been supporting the part of ACORN that is involved in voter fraud and coercing banks to give loans to people who can't afford to pay them back. Obama sued CitiBank while he represented ACORN for example as a part of that whole community orginizing thing he did. Is that in the article?

The big problem he doesn't want you to see is the whole thing is his resume that he doesn't want discussed. Ayers, ACORN, his past work enabling and promoting social programs and spending millions of taxpayer dollars and foundation dollars that don't really go to education..at least not the kind of education you think of. Obama used the community orginizer as his justification for having no experience in the democrat primary debate but he sure doesn't want anyone actually looking at the details of all that work and he barely acknowledges it if, and only if, it leaks out of the media cone of silence!
The media has gone way easy on him on this big picture stuff that would be daily news fodder if it was a republicans background.

Here, read this: Would the Last Honest Reporter Please Turn On the Lights?

[AlphaDoG]

While I tend to agree that \"Obama girl\" (youtube variant) is hot, I have to say thanks, but no thanks.

[AlphaDoG]

Here, read this: Would the Last Honest Reporter Please Turn On the Lights?

DAMN good read!

[Bet51987]

Here, read this: Would the Last Honest Reporter Please Turn On the Lights?

It's a mormon site but I read it anyway.

Where do I go for the absolute truth. I thought Factcheck.org was supposed to be unbiased. Where do I go?

While I tend to agree that "Obama girl" (youtube variant) is hot, I have to say thanks, but no thanks.

You made me look. There are a lot of them but none are me. I reside in my profile at PD. Is that you with the cigarette?.

Bee

[Spidey]

From that read...

“But right now, you are consenting to or actively promoting a big fat lie — that the housing crisis should somehow be blamed on Bush, McCain, and the Republicans. You have trained the American people to blame everything bad — even bad weather — on Bush, and they are responding as you have taught them to.”

HaH...I couldn't have said it better.

..................

\"Where do I go for the absolute truth.\"

/me hangs head

[Bet51987]

"Where do I go for the absolute truth."

/me hangs head

I'm talking about Ayers.

Bee

[AlphaDoG]

I reside in my profile at PD. Is that you with the cigarette?.

Bee

Indeedy Doo!

[Will Robinson]

"Where do I go for the absolute truth."

/me hangs head

I'm talking about Ayers.

Bee

Bee, I wish I knew the answer to that. My best advice is wait until a few months after the election if Obama wins and maybe the media will try to regain it's objectivity.
If he loses it will be a long, long time before they get back to work on reality because they will be too busy indicting any thing republican for the theft of their guys crown.

[dissent]

It's a mormon site but I read it anyway.

Why was that relevant in this context?

Where do I go for the absolute truth. I thought Factcheck.org was supposed to be unbiased. Where do I go?

What Reagan said - trust but verify. In this so-called news environment, I wouldn't trust any one source of information.

[Tunnelcat]

This constant harping about Ayers is just a distraction. It's getting old, worn out and is not really relevant anyway. Besides, McCain has his own little home-grown terrorist-in-the-closet problem. Namely G. Gordon Liddy! Does McCain really want to go there?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... 795.column

[Bet51987]

"Where do I go for the absolute truth."

/me hangs head

I'm talking about Ayers.

Bee

Bee, I wish I knew the answer to that. My best advice is wait until a few months after the election if Obama wins and maybe the media will try to regain it's objectivity.
If he loses it will be a long, long time before they get back to work on reality because they will be too busy indicting any thing republican for the theft of their guys crown.

Since no one can point me to a place for the truth, I'm going to go with Factcheck.org and dismiss the Republican comments concerning Ayers. That site is the closest to the truth I can find.

It's a mormon site but I read it anyway.

Why was that relevant in this context?

I meant nothing bad. It's just that I feel all religious sites are biased. I wouldn't even ask my loving priest for an unbiased opinion.

Where do I go for the absolute truth. I thought Factcheck.org was supposed to be unbiased. Where do I go?

What Reagan said - trust but verify. In this so-called news environment, I wouldn't trust any one source of information.

Reagan had a lot of equipment to verify with. I have nothing except what I read on my laptop so it's Factcheck.org for me.

Bee

[Pandora]

the part of ACORN that is involved in voter fraud

Can you elaborate? I heard a lot about registration fraud where people sign up under names like "Mickey Mouse" etc, but I haven't heard of a single instance of voter fraud. After all, none of the Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck guys could come to the election and vote under this name (isn't it cross-checked with ID cards as well?). In all these cases of registration fraud ACORN is the victim, not the perpetrator, because they are paying people for the number of people who have registered with them --- and if a large number of registrations are fake they are paying too much. If I am not mistaken, it was ACORN itself that reported these cases to the police as well.

[Will Robinson]

the part of ACORN that is involved in voter fraud

Can you elaborate? I heard a lot about registration fraud where people sign up under names like "Mickey Mouse" etc, but I haven't heard of a single instance of voter fraud. After all, none of the Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck guys could come to the election and vote under this name (isn't it cross-checked with ID cards as well?). In all these cases of registration fraud ACORN is the victim, not the perpetrator, because they are paying people for the number of people who have registered with them --- and if a large number of registrations are fake they are paying too much. If I am not mistaken, it was ACORN itself that reported these cases to the police as well.

Well ACORN brought thousands of so called residents to vote in Ohio during the time you are allowed to register AND VOTE on the same day all in one quick effort. No one knows how many times those "residents" were brought in to who knows how many precincts but ACORN does do a lot of gathering people up and shuffling them off on buses in lots of states...always states where the election is going to be close too...hmmm...coincidence?

So considering their very fraudulent track record and their method of operation I'm making the assertion that there are fraudulent votes already cast in Ohio thanks to ACORN. Since the democrat in charge of elections in Ohio has prevailed in the court to feel free to not pursue examining those votes my assertion is also that the fraudulent votes will be counted.

Since Obama's campaign paid this branch of ACORN $800,000 this year already and throughout his career as community organizer and as their lawyer and as a board member under Ayers direction he has funneled millions of dollars to them...because of all that money, my guess is McCain and Nader and Barr won't be getting any of the votes ACORN delivered this year.

So if Obama wins the election because he barely wins one of the battleground states people need to send their thank you notes to ACORN. If you wanted him to win anyway...if you didn't then STFU because if it doesn't make the news it didn't really happen, right?

[Pandora]

Well ACORN brought thousands of so called residents to vote in Ohio during the time you are allowed to register AND VOTE on the same day all in one quick effort. No one knows how many times those "residents" were brought in to who knows how many precincts but ACORN does do a lot of gathering people up and shuffling them off on buses in lots of states...always states where the election is going to be close too...hmmm...coincidence?

Do you have any evidence for this? How exactly would/have they beat the system and commit(ed) voter fraud? I don't understand.

their very fraudulent track record

Again, I couldn't find evidence of a fraudulent record. What do you mean?

[Pandora]

Will, do you mean this, from Cuyahoga, Ohio?

Election board members from both political parties maintain that any problems uncovered will not compromise the presidential election.
Board members say proof of voter-registration fraud does not mean illegal ballots will be cast on Nov. 4. They said computer databases flag people who try to register multiple times, and Ohio voter identification laws exclude people from casting regular ballots when the board has not verified residency.

also this:

Cuyahoga elections officials contend ACORN's troubles here appear to be an unorganized effort carried out by employees who needed to meet quotas to draw meager paychecks -- not an intricate conspiracy to stuff ballot boxes.

So again, only registration fraud, not voter fraud.

[Spidey]

“isn't it cross-checked with ID cards as well?”

Not in my voting ward. Sigs only.

[Pandora]

but still you couldn't vote multiple times (edit: or under a fake name), because it is cross checked with address and your signature, right?

[Will Robinson]

Pandora, the secratary of state in Ohio refused to provide the list of names that she herself said were suspect in a way that can be used by the individual precincts to check to see if they should be counted, further she is recommending that those vote, yes VOTES, not be put on provisional ballots. Obviously in spite of those quotes you provide of people saying there are laws regarding this kind of thing, if the top law enforcement authority in the state is going to tell her underlings to put the ballots in like all the others and not provide them with the actual database files that can be accessed by computer...there will be no stopping them and those laws people are referring to will stay on the books unused but available to be pointed to by anyone who needs a prop to stand under during an interview with a journalist.

Now of course if the media ever really tries to make a story of it, (lol, not this time around) then she will drag a few ballots out of the bag and say \"We have found some fraudulent ballots and removed them\".

And then the fat lady will sing and the righteous will have been vindicated and the heralds will sing and the just shall once again rule over the land...and if any peasants complain the tax man will be darkening their door by the following business day!

CINCINNATI (AP) - Close to one in every three newly registered Ohio voters will end up on court-ordered lists being sent to county election boards because they have some discrepancy in their records, an elections spokesman said Wednesday.

Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner estimated that an initial review found that about 200,000 newly registered voters reported information that did not match motor-vehicle or Social Security records, Brunner spokesman Kevin Kidder said. Some discrepancies could be as simple as a misspelling, while others could be more significant.

The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati sided with the Ohio Republican Party on Tuesday and ordered Brunner to set up a system that provides those names to county elections boards. The GOP contends the information will help prevent fraud.

\"Things already are in motion to comply,\" Kidder said. \"We're working to establish these processes on how we can make this work. The computer work actually began last week.\"

About 666,000 Ohioans have registered to vote since January.

Brunner previously cross-checked new-voter registrations with databases run by the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicle and the Social Security Administration and made the results available online, but the 6th Circuit said the information was not accessible in a way that would help county election boards ferret out mismatches.

Brunner, a Democrat, told The (Cleveland) Plain Dealer on Wednesday that she is concerned the court decision is a veiled attempt at disenfranchising voters. Brunner said she'll urge counties not to force these people to use provisional ballots.

The court gave Brunner until Friday to get election boards the information but it was unclear whether that deadline would be met. The court set no penalty for missing the deadline.

County election officials were trying to determine Wednesday how they will respond once they get the information.

\"I'm very concerned with these new requirements as we get closer to Election Day,\" said Steve Harsman, director of the Montgomery County Board of Elections in Dayton. He said his staff already is working 16 hours a day, seven days a week.

\"It's clearly going to have an impact in regard to resources we have to expend to resolve discrepancies,\" said Jeff Hastings, chairman of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections in Cleveland.

\"We've had about 100,000 (registrations) since January and of those about 34,000 since the primary. We will do whatever is required of us.\"

Also Wednesday, the Ohio Republican Party said it has filed public records requests with all 88 counties for copies of forms submitted by newly registered voters, especially those who registered and cast an absentee ballot on the same day during a one-week window earlier this month.

Brunner has said that 13,141 Ohioans registered and voted immediately during the window.

\"We've seen reports of fraudulent registrations, and we want to see those forms first-hand,\" said Jason Mauk, the state GOP's executive director.

I've read that the 13,141 number is a very low estimate. Even if it isn't, how many votes separated Bush and Gore in 2000?!?

[Pandora]

I don't get it, Will. Your quote also only talks about registrations, not votes.

[Will Robinson]

I don't get it, Will. Your quote also only talks about registrations, not votes.

Read a little slower..

"Also Wednesday, the Ohio Republican Party said it has filed public records requests with all 88 counties for copies of forms submitted by newly registered voters, especially those who registered and cast an absentee ballot on the same day during a one-week window earlier this month.

Brunner has said that 13,141 Ohioans registered and voted immediately during the window."

Ohio isn't the only state that had the register and vote all at once thing going, wanna bet which states ACORN rented buses in?

[Pandora]

Thanks, missed that.

So you're contention is that of these 13.141 votes a large number are fraudulent (edit: as opposed to typos in the address field or something)? What do you base this on? And how do you know that these 13.141 were turned in by ACORN?

Also, how could they elude all the safeguards in the system: (from my link)

Voter verification process

The Cuyahoga County Board of Elections still has about 18,000 registration cards to sift through, including some 6,000 turned in by ACORN. The following is some of what board workers do with each card to determine voter eligibility:

• If a group, such as ACORN or a political party, turns in cards, a sheet is filled out with the group's name, the date and how many cards were submitted. This helps trace problematic cards to the organization that collected them.

• All cards are scanned into a computer so the board has a copy. Originals are kept in storage. Scanning the cards puts the voter's signature into the computer system and transfers the signature to poll books used for verification on election day.

• The 43 workers in the registration department enter the information on the cards into the board's computer database.

• Workers put in the date of birth and check to see if the name on the card is already in the system. If the name is there and the signature matches, the record is updated with information from the most recent card. If the name isn't in the system with that birth date, a new record is created and checked against the statewide database to see if that person is registered elsewhere.

• The board double-checks registrations by comparing information with the databases of the Bureau of Motor Vehicles and Social Security numbers.

• Once the data is entered, the board sends the prospective voter an address confirmation card, which is not to be forwarded to another address. This card, workers say, is a key safeguard against voter fraud.

• If the card is returned as undeliverable, workers put a note next the voter's name in the poll books, telling poll workers the person must supply proof that the address listed is correct. Only then would the person be given a regular ballot. Otherwise, the person must cast a provisional ballot, which is not counted until the address is verified after the election.

I don't see any way that a group like ACORN could do that. To be honest, the more I read about it, the more I get the impression that this is nothing but mud slung by a few people unhappy with the outcome of the last election.

[Will Robinson]

....

Only then would the person be given a regular ballot. Otherwise, the person must cast a provisional ballot, which is not counted until the address is verified after the election.

I don't see any way that a group like ACORN could do that. To be honest, the more I read about it, the more I get the impression that this is nothing but mud slung by a few people unhappy with the outcome of the last election.

After the court decision in my article above the Secretary of State, Brunner, has had that decision overturned in the Supreme court so she now doesn't have to do anything if she doesn't want to. It's up to her to decide if anything is really wrong. Since even when she was faced with that lower court decision before it was overturned she ordered her people to not use provisional ballots I think she has telegraphed her position pretty well.
She doesn't want her underlings, or republicans to have an easy job checking things out thus the names provided on a web site but not the database. the list is initially 200,000 of which many will be simple mistakes so think about having to copy a list of names from a web page, go find the address from the voter roles to put with the names and then go filter out the innocents to come up with a list you can challenge....
The register and vote at once, the 13,141 votes, are already on regular ballots. something tells me no one will see them until after the election and they will be in with all the other regular ballots...however many vote in Ohio will be the number of papers someone will have to look through by hand!

Her people are already working overtime before being asked to do that job and say they don't know how they can do it even if she tries to make it easy.
Now that the supreme court decided the republicans can't show harm..yet...she won't even do that much!

Of course eventually the republicans will get the names and figure it out but then it would be a case of white republicans telling the first black president he really didn't win. Do you want to go there?

[dissent]

Where do I go for the absolute truth. I thought Factcheck.org was supposed to be unbiased. Where do I go?

What Reagan said - trust but verify. In this so-called news environment, I wouldn't trust any one source of information.

Reagan had a lot of equipment to verify with. I have nothing except what I read on my laptop so it's Factcheck.org for me.

/me slaps forehead

I'm not asking you to verify Soviet nuclear treaty compliance. I merely suggested that you take more that one site's information into account. If you want to start with factcheck.org, that's fine; just recommending that you verify their claims against other sources of information.

The only way to get absolute truth is to have a chat with someone who is omniscient (and who is willing to share that knowledge with you).

[Pandora]

Still, trying to understand, Will. Are we clear on the following:

- so far, the evidence you have provided is that Brunner's registration files are not ideal for cross checking (but she has provided them).
- there is no evidence of fraud, other than that her behavior could be interpreted as a bit fishy (but this could be merely due to me reading only republican-biased Fox news where her arguments are not presented accurately).
- the only place where voter (not registration) fraud could potentially happen is for the absentee ballots.

Most of all I don't understand how ACORN comes into all this. In Ohio, all voters need to show ID when voting, so we can be pretty sure that no fake identities such as Mickey Mouse have voted. So what exactly do you think is going on? Is your claim that ACORN brought buses from other counties/states to Cuyahoga who would usually cast their vote somewhere else? But why would they do that, since Cuyahoga is very strongly democrat anyways (66 to 33%), at least according to Wiki?

[Pandora]

What I think is going on in Cuyahoga is very simple. Cuyahoga is mostly democrat. So Republicans want that as few as possible Cuyahoga votes to be counted for the outcome on the state level; they try to get as many registrations cards containing small mistakes and mismatches to be thrown out and raise the spectre of voter fraud to enforce strict rules. Democrats on the other hand want as many votes to be counted, so they want a very lenient approach to weeding out mismatches in registration cards, and try to delay the exclusion process as long as possible. So what we are seeing is both sides pushing and pulling to use Cuyahoga to subtly affect the outcome of the vote on the state level.

edit: I might of course totally misunderstand the american voting system, apolgies in advance if this is the case.

[edited for clarity]

[Pandora]

Just stumbled upon this: Another reason why Republicans should contest early votes in particular, and why Democrats should try to keep them in. Early voters are mostly democrats, particularly in Ohio, of which Cuyahoga is a part.

[Bet51987]

/me slaps forehead

I'm not asking you to verify Soviet nuclear treaty compliance.

I should have been clearer. What I meant was that Reagan had a team of people helping him with sources. I have only me and a bunch of news bites but not much time.

So, I will look at all I can but I will END up with Factcheck.org which so far, to me, has worked pretty well.

Bee

[Pandora]

This and this give some insights into the behavior of Brunner.

{Brunner's appeal] argued that the Republican Party had nearly two years to raise complaints about the process of screening voter registrations and failed to do so. Any changes now to the process would disrupt preparations for the election, it contended.

So, according to this, it's not that implementing the changes of the Republicans would make organizing the election easier --- implementing the changes would make it harder for her staff that is already overworked.

What do the Republicans want to do with the names, anyways?

Once the local officials have the names, they may require these voters to cast provisional ballots rather than regular ones, and they may ask partisan poll workers to challenge these voters on Election Day. Both possibilities could cause widespread problems when the voters show up at the polls.

Remember that this might affect up to 200.000 new voters! Happy Day!
Also this:

Since Democrats have been more aggressive at registering new voters this year, the decision will probably affect their party’s supporters disproportionately. Polling in the state shows Senator Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential nominee, with a slight lead on his Republican challenger, Senator John McCain.

So from this point of view, the Republican's claim that they just want to uncover registration/voter fraud appears a bit hypocritical.

[Will Robinson]

Still, trying to understand, Will. Are we clear on the following:

- so far, the evidence you have provided is that Brunner's registration files are not ideal for cross checking (but she has provided them).
- there is no evidence of fraud, other than that her behavior could be interpreted as a bit fishy (but this could be merely due to me reading only republican-biased Fox news where her arguments are not presented accurately).
- the only place where voter (not registration) fraud could potentially happen is for the absentee ballots.

Most of all I don't understand how ACORN comes into all this. In Ohio, all voters need to show ID when voting, so we can be pretty sure that no fake identities such as Mickey Mouse have voted. So what exactly do you think is going on? Is your claim that ACORN brought buses from other counties/states to Cuyahoga who would usually cast their vote somewhere else? But why would they do that, since Cuyahoga is very strongly democrat anyways (66 to 33%), at least according to Wiki?

The only place where pro democrat fraud could happen is in any polling place that is run by democrats. If there are extra names on the rolls at the end of the night then it doesn't take much effort to stuff the box when everyone in the room is all for it! I think Chicago is world famous for having the most dead people vote, and then the same dead people vote again the next election after having been found out the previous one!
The fact that you need an ID to vote is no big deal when the guy at the desk just smiles and says "go on in"! You need an ID to buy beer too....

Brunner could have made the absentee ballots available if she wanted to ferret out the fraudulent votes, there was plenty of time to do it when she had them separate from the regular ballots. At the very least she could have demanded they be cast on provisional ballots as the lower court demanded but she specifically refused.
Instead she wants us to believe she did what she did to avoid republican repression of voting?!?
How so?
The voters voted absentee! They have already registered and voted and are long gone! They won't be coming back to be available for republican repression tactics!
Simply provide the database and look through the ballots allowing your own poll workers to throw out the ones that are truly fabricated by ACORN's efforts....or instead go out of your way to make sure that can't happen!

Which did she do and why do you think she did it?

I know the republicans would like to reduce democrat turn out by any means they can get away with and the democrats do it every year too.

What I'm pissed off about is the real ACORN / Obama connection is off limits in the media. You saw just today Bett finds a Factcheck.org page that "explores" the truth behind all the stuff they could find that doesn't really hurt him anyway and somehow the big picture and the details of Obama's history with them is full of holes.

Here, lets keep it simple.
If McCain had paid $800,000 this year to an outfit that was manufacturing hundreds of thousands of fraudulent registrations in all the battleground states do you really believe the media would somehow fail to include the most damning evidence available when they reported on it?!?

Obama better be one hell of a magical salvation because we have traded a hell of a lot to make sure he wins!!

[Pandora]

sorry for not responding so far, Will, I'm in bed with a nasty stomach bug. I hope to write a bit later today or tommorrow...

[Will Robinson]

Hope you feel better soon. while you're laid up do some research on Hillary and Bidens complaints about team Obama stealing the election during the primary process...bussing in out of staters...more votes than registered voters at many caucuses....stealing the forms so her voters couldn't participate...etc. etc.

In Texas and Iowa it looks like Obama wouldn't have won if not for his thuggery...without that Iowa win he wouldn't have pulled ahead at the right time and gained momentum like he did and even if he takes that, without Texas it would have been a dead heat at the end.

[Jesus Freak]

Obama better be one hell of a magical salvation because we have traded a hell of a lot to make sure he wins!!

We'll find out starting on January 20, 2009.

[Will Robinson]

Obama better be one hell of a magical salvation because we have traded a hell of a lot to make sure he wins!!

We'll find out starting on January 20, 2009.

If we do I'll bet a lot of people find Jesus within the years end because a hope and a prayer might be all they have left....

[Jesus Freak]

Obama better be one hell of a magical salvation because we have traded a hell of a lot to make sure he wins!!

We'll find out starting on January 20, 2009.

If we do I'll bet a lot of people find Jesus within the years end because a hope and a prayer might be all they have left....

Last I checked the polls, there wasn't much doubt in my mind about who's going to win. McCain needs a miracle.

[Will Robinson]

... Last I checked the polls, there wasn't much doubt in my mind about who's going to win. McCain needs a miracle.

I was suggesting that if Obama wins as you say he will then after about a year after his inauguration people will be praying for yet another change.
I don't think you should be as confident as you are though.

[Jesus Freak]

... Last I checked the polls, there wasn't much doubt in my mind about who's going to win. McCain needs a miracle.

I was suggesting that if Obama wins as you say he will then after about a year after his inauguration people will be praying for yet another change.
I don't think you should be as confident as you are though.

I mean, let me just point something out to Will and Woodchip and all the other people I've been debating recently on the presidential election and politics in general... I feel that occasionally it's good to get back to reality and not debate someone 100% of the time, so that's what this post is about.

I'm still young and developing my views on issues. I am a registered Republican and libertarian by several political tests, and I generally put a lot of trust into those around me (Christians and family, many of them much smarter than myself) when they tell me why being conservative is right. On the other hand, even if I am given the correct answers (if there is such a thing), I feel that I need to find my own position and decide some things on my own. One day when my kids ask me why I vote or feel such a way, I want to be able to give them an answer I feel proud of because I've put time and thought into it. I suppose my point is I'm not passionate about my political views as if I've already come to a conclusion (which I feel is the case for those 30+ years old).

I also would like to add that I give the utmost respect to all the posters on here--Will, Spidey, Woodchip, Bett, Goob, etc. I feel I'd enjoy knowing all of you in person.

I'm absolutely confident we all have our country's best interests in mind. Let the debates continue!

so yeah, I just can't find myself voting for McCain. I feel that while McCain's record is respectable and impressive, I actually believe Obama is more passionate for the well-being of our country. One analogy I can think of is between a church in distress and our nation which I believe is in financial distress. The church needs help. They are behind budget, and membership is dropping off. The pastor left due to sickness, and it's time for a new senior pastor. Two candidates come out of the midst; one has been a deacon for 30 years, and the other is popular among the youth of the church. The members of the church realize that the youth will drive the future of the church, and the young candidate seems to have the zeal to mobilize them. He's more charismatic, and some of his views cause the members some concern over the future of the church. The older members of the church are faced with a serious decision. Both candidates seem pretty good, and the young candidate shows good potential. The members are torn between who would be better for the church, but it seems the young candidate has the momentum.

Who is the best solution for the United States in its current state? My gut tells me that McCain would be a fine candidate during relatively stable times, but the nation and world are in turmoil. Obama may be young, inexperienced, and have some questionable policies and even associations, but he has displayed incredible perseverance, passion, and aptitude. He seems to be what the times call for. May God be with the United States in the next 4 years.

[Spidey]

Thanks for your kind words. Quite frankly, in times like these what the country needs is a leader with a truly unique vision of the future, and I’m not getting that from either one of these guys.

[CUDA]

One analogy I can think of is between a church in distress and our nation which I believe is in financial distress. The church needs help. They are behind budget, and membership is dropping off. The pastor left due to sickness, and it's time for a new senior pastor. Two candidates come out of the midst; one has been a deacon for 30 years, and the other is popular among the youth of the church. The members of the church realize that the youth will drive the future of the church, and the young candidate seems to have the zeal to mobilize them. He's more charismatic, and some of his views cause the members some concern over the future of the church. The older members of the church are faced with a serious decision. Both candidates seem pretty good, and the young candidate shows good potential. The members are torn between who would be better for the church, but it seems the young candidate has the momentum.

I'd like to comment on this analogy.

I am in the midst of this situation right now in my Church. first off there is a Valid point to a fresh approach. BUT that fresh approach cannot not be made at the expense of the doctrine. that must not change!!! We chose the younger Pastor, 27 years old to be exact. BUT!!!!! his doctrine is sound and will help lead our church down the right path, not take us in area's contrary to what the Scriptures teach.

transferring that analogy back to Obama. I am all in favor of a fresh approach to government. but changing us from a free market society, to a socialist society is NOT acceptable. it changes the doctrine of the founding Fathers. socialism has been proven over and over NOT to work. and if anyone here thinks for a second that Obama, Pelosi, and Reid are not trying to move us into full blown Socialism are either Naieve, have their heads in the sand. or are lazy socialists themselves.