Obama's Health Care plan

For discussion of life's issues: current events, social trends and personal opinions.

Moderators: Tunnelcat, Jeff250

Post Reply
User avatar
dissent
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2162
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:17 pm
Location: Illinois

Obama's Health Care plan

Post by dissent »

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

Senator Obama makes a lot of assertions about health care.

Are they substantiated?


This blog post (from March ’08 ), and it’s comments make for interesting reading -
http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_he ... -anal.html
Will Obama be able to cut the typical family’s health care costs by $2,500 a year?

Well, yes and no.

All of the candidates, Republican and Democratic, are calling for most of what is on the Obama cost containment list; expanding health information technology, improving prevention and better management of chronic conditions, and a more vibrant health insurance market.

Obama is unique in calling for catastrophic reinsurance coverage in order to reduce the cost of family health insurance. Really, this is not a cost reduction but a cost shift. This idea, first proposed by Senator Kerry in his failed bid for the presidency, would have the federal government absorb a large portion of the highest cost claims thereby taking these costs out of the price of health insurance. That would reduce the price of family health insurance but would also increase federal spending by the same amount. It would also water down the incentive for insurers and employers to manage these claims since most of these costs would be transferred to the government
Obama sets as his goal quality, affordable, and portable coverage for all.

Let’s take them one at a time:
* Quality- Obama’s quality initiatives look a lot like Clinton and McCain’s as well as those things that are going on in the market anyway. All good points—but no advantage here or expectation there will be quick savings.
* Affordability – Like Clinton, affordability is more about shifting the cost of insurance to the government then it is making a more efficient U.S. health care system. Health insurance is more affordable for people because he spends many billions of dollars subsidizing access for everyone.
* Portable Health Coverage For All: While Obama does not have an individual mandate to purchase health insurance; it is likely that he would cover as many people as would Clinton because he argues he makes coverage affordable for about as many as Clinton claims to. Compared to McCain, he puts far more emphasis on getting people covered upfront.

Obama would be successful in getting most of the uninsured covered and securing coverage for those that now have it. But when it comes to crafting a system that will not continue to outstrip the rest of the economy in what it costs, I see no evidence that he has tackled the drivers in health care costs—in fact he has likely poured some highly inflationary “gas on the fire” by adding tens of billions more to the system with no effective cost containment features to offset the new inflationary pressures.
What would it take to really contain costs?

McCain would say a more robust market and more reliance on personal responsibility and consumer choice to make the market work better.

Obama, like Clinton and McCain, came up with the same generally good list of things that are underway in the market anyway with only a limited success to point to so far.

To really get at costs you have to gore some very powerful political oxen among all of the key stakeholders.

McCain won’t do it because he simply doesn’t believe that a direct assault on the market players is the right thing to do—put market incentives in place and it will encourage and reward efficient behavior.

Obama and Clinton won’t do it, not because they don’t like government intervention, but because they don’t want to offend key stakeholders who could derail any meaningful health care reform effort.

The Democrats learned a very powerful lesson in 1994 when many of the special interests all united in opposition to the Clinton Health Plan.

Capping or even reducing costs means you have to cap or reduce costs. There are no magic bullets that reduce payments without doctors, hospitals, insurers, and lawyers getting less than they would have gotten. All of the health IT, prevention, wellness, and the like will not reduce costs by any big amount at least in the short term.

McCain avoids the notion that aggressive cost containment is important because he just doesn’t believe in it—a vibrant market will do the job.

Obama and Clinton avoid the notion that their cost containment list will be inadequate because it is politically expedient to do so—they aren’t going to risk their health care reform proposals by taking on the big stakeholders head-on.
I’m not posting this to say I support McCain’s plan. I think all the health care plans have serious issues. I think that health care professionals and health care workers should be part of a broad discussion with other stakeholders in what the future of American health care will look like.

But going through all of this in the middle of a presidential campaign is creating a lot more heat than light on the best solutions. Obama’s plan sounds to me like a lot of wishful thinking. If he leads us down this path, and it fails, is there a Plan B or exit strategy? Or will the Democrats want to just throw more (of our) money at it?
User avatar
Spidey
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10808
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Earth

Post by Spidey »

The idea here is simple, shift the cost to the government, and tax the rich to pay for it.
Praetorian
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 3:59 pm

Post by Praetorian »

Can you all get a grip, OUR money is what they (government) are using for these programs they come up with. You Lemmings are so use to not seeing it because it is automatically pulled out of your paycheck. When I think of all the freakin types of taxes I get slammed with I wanna choke someone. Yes, that license plate fee based on the value of your car is a freakin tax. Sit down and look at all the money government gets from you. Don't forget sales tax.

If you got a straight paycheck without taxes and the government officials had to come to your door every day with their hand out asking you for money, the majority of you would stop giving after you already gave. Think of it as putting money in every kettle at Christmas time when you hear the bell every day and every kettle you come upon. YOU DON'T

The government already has it hands in your wallets and pre-spends your money and when it runs out and they need more they raise your taxes.

Remember these words: We The People

Any time the government subsidizes anything WE THE PEOPLE ARE PAYING FOR IT.
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10132
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

I raised my prices twice in the last year to offset the rise in fuel and the increase I made to my employees pay which they deserved because they shop for fuel and other things just like I do.

If my taxes go up I'll raise my prices again.

If my company grosses over $250,000 in gross sales next year it doesn't mean I take home $250,000 in gross income yet Obama's plan says I will belong in the higher tax bracket.
He apparently doesn't know what a profit margin is or he's lying and knows he's really raising taxes on people who earn much less than $250,000. Which do you think it is?

You can bet I'll do the math and see how much gross sales I need to make to not lose my own income level to his additional tax....I'll make \"adjustments\" accordingly....start paying myself salary just under his limit and \"re-invest\" the difference in my \"company\" to keep money that used to be taxed out of the system....

So if I vote for him, and make my adjustments I'll be able to maintain my personal income, pay less into the system and cash his refund checks!
If that means someone loses their job or someone pays too much for their next service call or new system they can tell it to the politicians, I've got kids in braces soon to be looking at colleges all the while paying my bills.

I'm not the only one with a small business who knows these things. Most of my peers would say I've been stupid not making \"adjustments\" all along but I figured the tax rate wasn't too bad and business was good.
Things are different now and with Obama's plan you can bet a lot of businesses will be making \"adjustments\" to offset his impact. Like his mandated health coverage, if you think the business is going to just say \"OK, I guess I have to pay this new bill\" you're smoking something! They will pass that cost along to the consumer.

We're all going to pay, even if you think you don't pay taxes some of you are going to help pay mine...or whoever you buy anything from!

Want to change this system? Demand the Fair Tax
User avatar
dissent
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2162
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:17 pm
Location: Illinois

Post by dissent »



... would you be mine,
would you be mine,
won't you be my neighbor?

won't you please, won't you please,
please won't you be - my neighbor?


- Fred Rogers


Barack Obama admits he does not like paying taxes;
quick, let Biden know he's not being a patriot.


User avatar
Jeff250
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 6539
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 1999 2:01 am
Location: ❄️❄️❄️

Re:

Post by Jeff250 »

Will Robinson wrote:If my company grosses over $250,000 in gross sales next year it doesn't mean I take home $250,000 in gross income yet Obama's plan says I will belong in the higher tax bracket.
He apparently doesn't know what a profit margin is or he's lying and knows he's really raising taxes on people who earn much less than $250,000. Which do you think it is?
I'm admittedly naive about businessy things, but doesn't net income determine your bracket in federal income taxes?
User avatar
TechPro
DBB Admiral
DBB Admiral
Posts: 1520
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 11:51 pm

Re:

Post by TechPro »

Jeff250 wrote:
Will Robinson wrote:If my company grosses over $250,000 in gross sales next year it doesn't mean I take home $250,000 in gross income yet Obama's plan says I will belong in the higher tax bracket.
He apparently doesn't know what a profit margin is or he's lying and knows he's really raising taxes on people who earn much less than $250,000. Which do you think it is?
I'm admittedly naive about businessy things, but doesn't net income determine your bracket in federal income taxes?
You wish.
User avatar
Jeff250
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 6539
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 1999 2:01 am
Location: ❄️❄️❄️

Post by Jeff250 »

Well no, I don't own a business, so this is not an immediate concern of mine. ;)

But I was hoping for something more substantive here. Even conservative commentators who write arguments against Obama's tax plan argue in terms of net income (e.g. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122455021772252457.html). So there seems to be a disconnect here. Can anyone resolve it?
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10132
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

From what I've heard Obama say it sounds like the total gross profit of a small business is the number.
Not gross sales but gross profit which is still much more than the net profit.
Net profit is what is transferred from the Schedule C to the individuals 1040 form.
User avatar
Jeff250
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 6539
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 1999 2:01 am
Location: ❄️❄️❄️

Post by Jeff250 »

For curiosity (and to satisfy my sense of masochism), I downloaded the Schedule C form, and indeed as you say, net income is what is reported on the 1040. Do you have a link to point to where it sounds like Obama is talking about gross profits determining income brackets for small businesses instead? It seems like we should just assume that it is still net profits determining income brackets unless there is good reason to think otherwise.
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10132
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Re:

Post by Will Robinson »

Jeff250 wrote:For curiosity (and to satisfy my sense of masochism), I downloaded the Schedule C form, and indeed as you say, net income is what is reported on the 1040. Do you have a link to point to where it sounds like Obama is talking about gross profits determining income brackets for small businesses instead? It seems like we should just assume that it is still net profits determining income brackets unless there is good reason to think otherwise.
I hope I'm wrong and it is net instead of gross but I don't think so based on the way such an articulate and smart guy all of a sudden got very vague when his comments started getting close to that detail. Maybe he was just having a brain fart or was distracted but I kept waiting for it and it never came. It would be a major point you would think he would have made clear if it was net not gross.
I don't have a link, it was on TV at one of his rallies in his comments mocking Joe the plumber saying he doesn't know any plumbers that make 250,000 a year, so maybe YouTube has it.
Jesus Freak
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:01 am
Location: Mechanicsville, Md, USA
Contact:

Post by Jesus Freak »

We need to research this a bit more to determine whether businesses are taxed on gross profits versus net profits. The difference is huge, so I'm interested to hear. I can't imagine how gross profits could be justified from anyone who has taken a course in common sense, let alone Economics 101. It would have a major impact on small businesses.

The good news is there are a lot of loopholes for businesses to exploit the tax system. Still, this is an issue that needs to be looked into further.
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10132
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Re:

Post by Will Robinson »

Jesus Freak wrote:...The good news is there are a lot of loopholes for businesses to exploit the tax system. Still, this is an issue that needs to be looked into further.
No, loopholes are why democrats milked Freddie Mac and Fannie May and were allowed to give us a running start into the worst financial ruin since the great depression. Loopholes in the tax system are how corrupt politicians get their power. Loopholes are government sanctioned exploitation of the working class so please don't offer that up as some kind of comfort.
Knee pads are no consolation prize for the rape victim!
User avatar
Jeff250
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 6539
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 1999 2:01 am
Location: ❄️❄️❄️

Post by Jeff250 »

This is about as authoritative as I could find on Obama's position with some googling this morning:
barackobama.com wrote:Do Small Businesses pay taxes on their gross revenues or their net income?

As a small business owner who claims small business income on your individual tax return (whether through a sole proprietorship, partnership, or S-corp) you pay individual income taxes only on your net income — or profit — and not on your firm’s gross revenue. Accordingly, when Obama says that he would roll back the Bush tax cuts for all couples earning more than $250,000 a year, these income figures include only net income that a small business owner takes home. Because net income is usually far lower than gross revenue, even if your revenue is above $250,000 you are still likely to get a tax cut under Obama’s tax plan. If you are a small business owner using the tax calculator, you should select your income level based on the net income you claim — your revenues minus your costs — to see how you would fare under each candidate.
(emphasis mine)

Will, perhaps Obama isn't quite as awful of a candidate as you once thought? ;)
Herculosis
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:01 am
Location: USA

Post by Herculosis »

I think the really important distinction to make here is that Obama's plan DOES sound reasonable. However, consider that this is the plan for the purpose of getting elected. In order to actually enact such a plan, congress would have to do it, and that means getting Nancy Pelosi and Harry Ried on board, along with enough of each house to go along.

Has anyone heard ANYTHING regarding any commitment from our friends in congress to follow up on these promises? Without a pretty strong one, I think we're more likely to see what these folks normally do. Look at each of their records and see what you think.

Personally, I think we're going to hear alot of \"we did everything we could to have a tax cut, but we just couldn't do it with all of the spending we had to do\", just like we heard after Clinton got elected.

If the democrats end up with a super majority in the senate, and even if not, does any sane person really think what ends up happening will look even remotely similar to this plan???
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10132
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

I smell something fishy here.
you should select your income level based on the net income you claim — your revenues minus your costs — to see how you would fare under each candidate.
They refer to two different sources to calculate the tax.

There is a difference between \"net income\" which comes after deducting both:
\"costs\" (specific IRS form speak for material/inventory)
and \"expenses\" (specific IRS form speak for overhead like fuel,labor,insurance, etc.etc.)
...AND...
\"gross profit\" which comes from deducting only the \"costs\".

So that statement I just quoted has it both ways and sounds like a true politician setting up the old bait and switch.

If you deduct your \"costs\" only then he's using gross profits. If you deduct \"costs\" plus \"expenses\" then you are right and he is only using the net profit to assign the tax rate.

I honestly don't know, I just reacted to what he said..and now to the misleading web site info. Bad reporting or bad mojo...?
With the trillion$ of spending he has planned I bet he needs the gross profit to come close to raising enough revenue to spread the wealth around ;)
I do hope you are right though!
Post Reply