Audiophiles Welcome

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:40 pm

And please give me some recommendations on a new Receiver/Amp.

I have no idea who the current manufacturer of choice is, or what is even available at this time. The last time I bought a good stereo, Sansui & HK were the thing.

My requirements:

Awesome 5.1 dolby sound. (Top Priority) Main speakers are 3 way Cerwin Vega DX series.
300 to 500 watt range.
At least 1 coaxial digital input, and a few standard RCA analog.
Good cooling, but is going to be in a EC with ventilation fan.
Around 500 big ones or less.
Nice Looks. No wider than 17” or so.
Good headphone driver…not a priority tho. (mine are 50 ohm)

Not Required: but ok if present.

Tuner.
Any video switching, such as HDMI, up or down scaling and such.

Would like tips on brands, model lines, retail outlets, preferably online. Or even places to look.

Will go above 500 if really really worth it.

Thanks in advance…

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:21 pm

Very happy with my Yamaha unit, although it is a older model that came out before HDMI, it does have two optical inputs and one digital coax (toslink/SPDIF), along with 6 channel analog and multiple stereo analog inputs. The controls allow you to change more settings than you know what to do with down to the individual speaker levels, DSP effects, treble/bass for the main speakers and for the headphones separately, the brightness of the front display, mute behavior, other things I'm probably forgetting. Also my headphones are 250 ohms and the system starts to get too loud for them on most CD audio at 10 dB over the minimum volume.

I got this system because my ancient RCA system had a very noticeable hiss on the headphones at any volume level that I just couldn't stand anymore.

As for when the system is actually up and running on speakers, even with the dirt cheap 6 ohm speakers that came with it, the system be easily adjusted from levels so low you cant even hear it to ear splitting house shaking loud two rooms away but still remains crisp and clear. Also there is plenty of in-between in the volume so it is very easy to find a safe and comfortable volume level, it doesn't go from too-soft to too-loud in one notch. The total power is 500w RMS (1000w peak, it uses an external powered subwoofer with 150w).

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:45 am

As much as I am against Sony, their receivers are top grade. I have used mine every single day since 1992. It pumps out a good, clean, strong signal. I only need to upgrade it so I can handle x.1 output.

Yamaha's are also known for their quality of manufacture. And, after going through their site, I think they might even have Sony beat by a hair.

Sony also has proprietary crap, which I ignore, because of how I use my receiver, but it might be more important to you). The Sony model also has up-conversion.

Both of these exceed your specs, and are within your price range.

Sony
Yamaha

hmm..I think I just figured out what I'm getting for Christmas

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:48 am

My dad has a Yamaha with 3 HDMI outputs etc etc and it's great.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:15 pm

Cerwin Vega's kick ass! That's what I have as well.

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:19 pm

Yamaha and Denon. Denon has always had a crappy remote design and still does. Who wants to flip open a door on the other side of a remote and hunt amongst 50 multifunction buttons in the dark?

Yamaha amps have a bright sound to them and they sacrifice a bit of power to achieve better THD levels. Denon will be able to supply better current but at extremely high levels I can hear the Denon amp sounding scratchy and \"harsh\" but at ear bleeding volume levels many don't care or cant hear it.

What model of Cerwin Vega DX do you have? Those are pretty old speakers and the rubber surrounds will probably need attention soon. Who wants speaker cones in their lap when they fire up the system for the first time? If they can handle the wattage you can assign the unused power on the extra channels on the Denon and Yamaha amps, but you will be spending more than $500.00 on those models.

I usually bi-amp another pair of front speakers for those that want good sound and 5.1 only. For 5.1 only you could look at a Yamaha RX-V463, it has limited features but it does have the power you are after. If you can afford it and find it the Denon 2308 is an awesome value and a great receiver for its price range. I love these for the smaller theaters because it gives me tons of options and can drive larger speakers quite nicely. The remote still sucks and blows so I sub in Logitech Harmony remotes... you may want to do the same.

For a sub Velodyne and Energy are good choices. The Energy line is probably a bit more economical with a smaller system and has a smaller footprint to boot. I'll put up an 8\" energy against almost any 10\" competitors sub and the Energy will stomp it. Also they make great sounding center channel speakers.

I regret selling my lower priced Energy center to a customer and replacing it with a Speakercraft that cost twice as much. The Energy center had way better clarity for dialogue than the Speakercrap I replaced it with.

If you like rock and a good presence from speakers check out the KEF series. These speakers are my new favorites for the mid to low-high systems that I build. I haven't heard a speaker like this in a long time... they are amazing and they are pricey but wow do they ever crank it out.

As for video up-conversion, be careful about using it. I take 1080P sources and hook them directly to the Video Source's Input rather than introducing noise and artifacts by routing through an amp. Most amps have HDMI switching built in and is acceptable but not terrific quality. Denon has a nasty glitch with Sony VCR's due to genlock issues. I still encounter this years after Denon was made aware of it.

Be careful buying online as many units are B-stock or rebuilds. Look for Denon or Yamaha certified resellers if buying online or you wont get warranty service no matter what the seller says.

Good luck and hope this helped.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:23 pm

Heh, Krom, that’s exactly what happened when I plugged in my new phones….hummmmm… Crappy Sherwood.

Heh “Sherwood” Sherwood like to be a Kenwood…lol. I cracked myself up.

Sony
Denon
Yamaha

I was considering Sony, I really like their quality, but I was wondering if an off the rack unit from them would be what I’m looking for.

Yahama, is know for quality instruments, didn’t know they made home audio amps…definitely gonna look into them.

Canuck, that Yamaha RX-V463 is nicely priced, can you really get great sound for that price? I can afford the Denon, if it is worth the price. I don’t need “loud” looking for better sound at the lower to mid range volume levels.

Speakers are DX7 and tight as new! No plan to upgrade there. 255 watts each. 4 ohms tho. The only speaker upgrade I was considering was a sub, but these speakers have 12” woofers.

No need for any video switching. And I do need a good remote.

Yea, it helps…thanks.

Genghis · Post by **Genghis** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:01 pm

My next receiver will be a Marantz. Basically high-end Denon. I demo'ed the 6001 a couple of years ago and was very impressed.

http://us.marantz.com/Products/172.asp

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:07 am

Hmm was hoping those speakers were 6 ohm, but the Yamaha and Denon should be able to handle it. However don't blame me if the amp goes into protect mode or the speakers crap out, I'm telling you straight out the foam surround rots over time and I don't care how good it looks... I'm just trying to tell you that old speakers and new amps don't make a good mix. Those speakers sell for around $250.00/pr online. Look at investing in a good set of new speakers it will change your mind about the old ones. I have some bookshelf speakers that sell for around $900.00/pr that will totally stomp your DX7's. I popped them on top of $3,500.00 + Polk Towers and Mirage Towers with built in subs and the owners bought them on the spot. Made those towers sound like mud. What are you using for the rest of the speakers? Seriously look at a KEF speaker system if you want a really nice speaker. They make good subs too but I find them a little pricey.

The Yamaha will crank out some really decent quality sound and at that impedance will output around 130W RMS. The Denon will allow you to steer the unused Zone 2 power to the fronts offering 200W RMS at 8 Ohms, and ~ 260 W RMS into 4 Ohms. Also the unused side channels on the Denon can be assigned to the rears. Nothing beats a dedicated sub to reproduce low frequencies so I suggest you really look into that.

Gekko71 · Post by **Gekko71** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:03 am

The only thing I can add to this discussion is keep your eye out for second hand Focal speakers if you can find them. The good ones cost the earth when they are new, but their sound is incredible. Each speaker is made by hand and speakers are the only thing they make. I have it on good authority if they make a mistake in manufacturing a speaker, they throw it away and start again.

PS: Get the ones made in Europe - not Asia.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:56 am

I will consider speakers, if the results aren’t great. I’m not worried about the power consumption, I rarely crank it up too loud. (row home) I will be sure to get one with power to spare.

The Yamaha’s are out, they are too wide for my EC, and that’s a deal breaker. I may also eliminate Sony, because of bad reviews. Too bad because I like the STR DG-820

So that leaves Denon & Marantz for now,

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:58 am

My Yamaha unit also has a 6 ohm/8 ohm selector in the back so it can safely and effectively drive either.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:22 pm

Well, I have narrowed it down to the Denon AVR 2308CI or AVR 988 Made in Japan. .05 THD

Sony = No rear switched outlet on the STR DG-820….duh
Marantz = Made in China…Wasn’t a deal breaker tho.
Yamaha = Most models too large for my EC. (the layout on the back is a clue into design, and is very good)

The Denon’s have A B front speakers with a 8 ohm limit with them both on, and since most A B speakers are used in parallel, (I assume) I should be fine as long as I don’t use both sets at once. (2 sets of 8 ohm speakers in parallel = 4 ohms)

I still have time, before I intend to buy, so if there are any more brand suggestions, I would still like to hear them.

Also trusted places to buy online….very important.

Thanks again, was very helpful.

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:02 am

http://www.usa.denon.com/OnlineETailers.asp
http://www2.kef.com/ Look at the IQ series

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:16 pm

My mistake on the Yamaha’s size, was mistaking the shipping size for unit size. The Yamaha’s will all fit, but I have decided to go with Denon. (it was a hard choice, either one would have been good)

Will post back here after I hook up my new unit, and let you guys know what’s up. (I hope I don’t need a degree to get it set up, looks complicated)

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:11 pm

The Denon will have a microphone that plugs in the front of the Denon that measures the sound levels and automatically sets things up for you. Saves tons of time and does a really good job.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:14 pm

Canuck,

How do you use the Serial Port? Can I control this unit with windows?

Got my unit today…wow fast…Denon AVR-988 (ordered Sunday)

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:44 pm

The serial port is for RS232 communications. A bi-directional control that allows other products such as Crestron or AMX to control and read the status of the amp. You can try a product like Girder to interface a PC into your setup and control it that way;
http://www.promixis.com/
Or use hyperterminal to send the RS232 commands, or try your hand at Look RS232 to learn how it works;
http://www.lookrs232.com/

Basically strings of commands are sent and received over this port... here is the link to the commands for your unit;
http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR-988SerialP ... r5.3.0.pdf

Your going to love this amp.

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:19 pm

Spidey how does it sound? Inquiring minds want to know

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:56 pm

Just hooked it up a few minutes ago, sounds great, but I think I will need to do some tweaking.

It’s real quiet between songs…I like that!

Haven't tried any surround yet, just CDs.

I will post back after I get used to the setup and stuff….

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:55 pm

Large odor coming out of this thing…Is this normal for modern Receivers?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:09 pm

What kind of odor? New electronics odor or something else?

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:38 pm

Yea, kinda like new electronics, but much much stronger.

Smells like when my Dremel fried, (same smell, not amount) I’m hoping it’s just breaking in.

It’s not overheating, and it’s working ok, in fact, it sounds “really” good after some tweaking.

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:41 am

That doesn't seem right. I bet your speakers impedance is dipping way lower than 4 ohms, stressing the amp. Some odor is expected until it breaks in but continuous odor does not bode well. The amp should go into protect mode and prevent damage if there are issues with the speakers though. Keep an eye on it.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:13 pm

If that’s the case, then these speakers would have fried my older cheap ass receiver years ago. (8 ohm min)

It’s either burning in or defective.

I haven’t even cranked it up yet.

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:52 pm

What are you waiting for! CRANK IT!

The Denon will go into protect mode if there is an issue... perhaps the assembler used lots of flux and didn't wash it off, or some extra heatsink grease is heating up and causing the odor. If it is defective then warranty would cover it.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:04 pm

Yeah, if it doesn't blow up after a few hours of cranking away its probably fine and the smell will fade.

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:34 pm

So do you have speaker cones in your lap now or what?

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:02 pm

Hell no, speakers are sounding great, they never really got pushed with my last receiver, too much distortion at higher levels.

Added a sub as well, Yamaha YST SW216, yea I know it’s low end, but it \"really\" does sound good.

Actually a little too much low end, as I was afraid of with my large mains. Working on that now.

Smell is also abating…so I’m hopeful it won’t need service.

You were right about loving this thing, it’s got a lot of awesome features.

Thanks again