I like porn.

[bash]

Testi, I would challenge you to consider that may be because of unrealistic expectations a man steeped in hardcore porn brings to a relationship. Look at some of the more common themes in porn these days; bukkake, anal sex, rape fantasies, etc. Almost all of them are variations on a domination theme. If one has been overexposed to porn (just like the slow progression of soft drugs to hard drugs in order to retain the same level of *high*) then that type of imagery is highly arousing. It becomes *optimally* arousing. Going back to soft core like Playboy just isn't gonna ring the bell anymore. What if a woman doesn't want her face spooged all over, or doesn't want to shave her vagina, or feels her anus is better suited for other functions, or doesn't want to be roughly handled? The result is the man isn't going to be aroused. No arousal means no satisfaction for anyone, man or woman. In my opinion, pornography,--again, I'm focussing in particular on hardcore pornography, which is the bulk of it, imo--doesn't really affect too much of how a man interacts with women in non-sexual situations, but it does have a profound affect on how a man interacts with his sex partner.

[Zuruck]

bash, you have a good point in that some people might respond to porn in a bad way. however, that is up to the people in the relationship to deal with correct? if a woman does not like it rough, she would communicate with her guy at that point and tell him what he can and can't do with her.

[Lothar]

Zuruck, what happens when the man thinks "oh, the woman in the porn said the same thing, but she really didn't mean it"? Yeah, it's up to the people in the relationship to deal with it -- but it's better to not have to.

[bash]

Z, it is then beyond the point of communication. Even if a woman says something is out of bounds, if the guy can't get hard or stay hard because he feels like he's been restricted to acts he no longer finds arousing then he's probably going to simply go back to whacking off to porn for his sexual satisfaction and the relationship will deteriorate.

[Zuruck]

and at what point does this affect you?

[Gooberman]

there seems to be a higher failure rate at landing a girlfriend or wife in such high porn places as Kali and the DBB than there is in low porn places, such as friends of the same age at church. This is one of my shakier points, though. It just seems like it ought to be true.

Oh I agree completely. Like I mentioned, I don't wear the fact that I watch porn on my sleeve. But if someone asks me, I also don't feel guilty in saying I do watch it. A women doesn't want to be approached for her body anymore then a man would want to be approached just because he is tall or has money. (Maybe if he/she was just looking for a good time). But if we are talking about wanting to start a serious relationship, both wouldn't be positively receptive.


There is a point that I hope Lothar responds to, and believe he will in his post. That is, I concede that it isolates sex, but why is it a bad thing? If I was looking for a girlfriend, I wouldn't approach a women in a coffee shop just hoping to get some. And I don't feel like isolating sex for 10 minutes a week will make me do so.

Bash, I agree with you. And if someone is going to be able to persuade me to the other side on this issue, I believe that is the angle that has the most chance of doing so. On the other hand, Porn can also show you positions that you hadn't thought of. I guess, however, a Karma sutra book would suffice for that.

Just out of curiosity, Lothar/Drakona, how do you feel about karma sutra?

[Gooberman]

I agreed with Bash and then he snuck a post in

acts he no longer finds arousing then he's probably going to simply go back to whacking off to porn for his sexual satisfaction and the relationship will deteriorate.

I don't agree here, sex is great. BFDD(Dr.Mdma) on these forums, I know him in real life, and he always says that single player games are like masturbation. I agree, I don't care if your locked down and she is just on top of you, and you can't move or anything. It will still completely eclipse the experience of watching the sluttiest porn with only Rosie Palmer and her five sisters.

[Zuruck]

gooberman...did you quit drinking or something. Your grammar is great!!

[Gooberman]

Rarely these days, I'm not sure if there is a correlation though, maybe.

[bash]

OK, Goob, let me see if I can throw in this caveat and regain your agreement. Nothing cannot be undone. Porn viewing is like a memory, it will fade. If a man is told some areas are out of bounds and makes a conscious effort to avoid hardcore imagery containing those acts, then softer forms will once again be highly arousing. It's an *unconditioning* thing. So, yea, I agree, it was incorrect of me to offer only a single alternative in that scenario.

Z, I would imagine that varies from man to man. Only the man will be able to tell when he's having a tough time staying hard because he's just not aroused. I've been in such situations where you're going *I know I should be aroused here but I'm not* and, no, it wasn't when I had been drinking. When a man realizes that (btw, young lads, it does tend to be more prevalent as you get older), to my way of thinking, that is when he should take stock in what might be causing it. Sometimes it's health issues or age and porn viewing might not have anything to do with it.

OT: Goob, I agree with Z, you've been remarkably lucid and spelling-fortified in the last few months. I was beginning to suspect your girlfriend had taken over your posting chores.

[Flabby Chick]

My conversations with my woman friends on this subject were very interesting, and varied as it happens, so when i'd finished chatting to them i felt like i'd done a circle if you know what i mean.

One single thirty year old, that me and the mrs are really close to said that her and her boyfriend watch porn videos every now and again before they have sex. The porn dosn't dictate or rule the sex-life that they have, she said, it's just one of the "tools" they use for foreplay, as having a candle lit dinner would also be a pre-amble to making love. When i asked her the "does porn objectify women?" question, she said of course it does, as well as the man. Thats the whole point of it and that in certain situations while making love she wanted to be objectified (i don't know if i explained that very well) because it made her feel sexier.

One thing common with them all was that they thought that all men at some point objectify women. That to varying degrees men are visually stimulated walking sex animals and this will manifest itself at some point with or without porn. Most agreed with Drak that the guys that watched a lot of porn in their experience could be spotted right away due to their attitude towards women.

Now when we got onto the subject of Porn within a marriage we had loads of differing opinions, ranging from feelings of indifference to complete rejection. One friend said she would feel inadequate as a lover if her husband started to watch porn, one said she'd feel betrayed. None of them apart from my single freind said that porn could have a positive affect upon their relationship, yet all said they'd be against criminalising it.

There was loads more that they said and at one point after a few glasses of wine outside our house i felt like i was an extra on "sex in the city"...god!! girls can talk dirty.I think i learned quite a lot from these chats with the girls though, it's been an age since i've talked seriosly about sex with women other than the mrs.

I could say a few more things about Draks big post, but luckily i agree with goob, and he's a hell of a lot more eloquennt than i

FC

[Ferno]

"As for marriage suffering because of porn, if a man has to resort to porn because his wife doesn't fullfill that need, then that marriage is already in trouble, regardless if the man ever picks up a copy of Debbie does Dallas."

very true. reason this happens is when two people get married they want to keep the good stuff going but to become exclusive with each other. but what happens six months down the road? usually the wife (watch out, generalization here, and there are exceptions to this rule, like Drakona) starts to recede from her behaviour. less sex, less help, less support. this happens oh so very gradually until two years down the road the guy goes 'honey, why don't you ever give me a bj at least?', to which the response usually is 'use your right hand you *insert expleteve here*'.

boom, an argument happens where he says he busts his arse at work puttin 12 hour days in at the office, while she retorts that she suffers because she has to take care of the kids and her needs aren't met, ad nauseum. What's a guy to do? he can't go bang some other chick because if the wife finds out she takes half of everything (california law, look it up). so he's screwed in that sense. prostitution is illegal so he can't do that either. where does he turn to? porn. he starts to remember the good times and how happy they were when the marriage was new. of course this leads to the guy being miserable.

so porn doesn't wreck a marriage. miserable spouses do.

[bash]

Heh, Ferno, that was a thoroughly depressing vision that is by no means inevitable if one finds the right mate.

[Tricord]

This thread is also a good example that people are made of an infinite amount of layers and have deep, intimate secrets. I know I have my own. Appearences are everything, and rest assured that when you think you know somebody, there is always more to them than meets the eye.

Going on a tangent here, I know I couldn't live my life without hiding my thoughts and my emotions whenever I feel the need to. I know that because of my behaviour, different people have different images of myself. I have a complex personality, I have struggled with it in the past and from all of you on this board Drakk is probably the person who knows most what I'm talking about.

This said, from what I've seen, people who watch porn on a regular basis are not ashamed to admit so. Apparantly, porn has become routine for them, and the fact that they have mates watching porn too lowers the threshold to talk about it.

Unfortunately, I can not contribute much to this thread. I am not a porn consumer, I don't feel affected by it indirectly or otherwise, and I am no longer utterly shocked when I see it. I also don't have a decent relationship and even never had one either. I threw a BBQ party yesterday and was yet again reminded why most girls are not worth the trouble.

PS: sorry if this post was mostly about myself I find this thread interesting, especially because I had no idea that porn was such a big deal to some and plain routine to others. I feel like I should reply something but I don't have much to say

[Testiculese]

Unrealistic expectations are pretty common, Bash, why do you think over 50% of marriages are soon divorces?

[Tetrad]

Heh, Ferno, that was a thoroughly depressing vision that is by no means inevitable if one finds the right mate.

That seems like the whole point of his post to me. Porn itself doesn't wreck relationships; it's just something spiteful people point at as part of their "why you're no good anymore" or whatever.

[TheCops]

"there seems to be a higher failure rate at landing a girlfriend or wife in such high porn places as Kali and the DBB than there is in low porn places"

Don't forget most are some ugly mo-fo's (myself included), or overly geeked (myself included), or both (oh, why me?!) and that is why they (we) don't get dates.

i'll tell you why i only "date lightly" and donâ??t commit and it has nothing to do with hair pulling or misogyny. it has to do with my personality... i'm fiercely independent. i've been in 3 long term relationships (over 2 years each) in my 31 years with great women. but i just can't do it... i don't even believe a human can be a monogamist, you're just fooling yourself it goes against your dna.

itâ??s not pornâ?¦ itâ??s me.

[Flabby Chick]

I remember saying the same thing exactly just before i met the wife then...BAM.

[Ferno]

Bash, what i wrote was the general way of how a mrriage goes when two people jump the gun. IE: marry waay too young, say 'let's get married, consequences be damned'

But I'm sure if you do your homework on the other person, it's completely avoidable.

[xceptional1]

I've been browsing the few pages and would just like to commend everyone for actually carrying on a good discussion. I entirely agree with what Bash said about arousal level and the tolerance build up coming from being exposed to more provacative scenarios (whether it be porn or actuality).

"I've been in such situations where you're going *I know I should be aroused here but I'm not* and, no, it wasn't when I had been drinking."

I'm 20 yrs. old, and this has happened to me more than once - granted alcohol is sometimes involved, not so much to do any physical impairment.

My best friend is on the rocks in a relationship with his long-time girlfriend (who he met through church when they were both in highschool). All that they know (relations wise) is each other. We always get into debates regarding how you should go about relationships, and I'm always giving him flak about claiming he's found the one when he has nothing to compare it to. My perception was the classic blissful ignorance... I guess it just pissed me off to see him - going to law school at UGA, goodlooking, athletic guy with everything in the world going for him, pining away over some girl from this small town playing games with his head - all while living in a town where the female/male ratio is 3-1 and there are opportunities everywhere. After reading some of these posts, and looking at my own situation, I get a little better perspective of the conservative views, and how it can keep things meaningful. Exposing yourself to loads of, whether it be sex, drugs or even porn is going to numb you to future experiences. I guess small doses is the way to go as far as satisfaction is concerned .


and Meat...

I've only been in one real 'relationship'. It lasted about 9 months, if you knew me it would probably seem more noteworthy. I guess it left me with a bitter taste in my mouth, and since then I don't have much concern for others I'm involved with. It's sad because you know you're hurting people, but you just don't care. I was hoping by the time I was your age I'd have most of it figured out, maybe not .

Sorry if I got off topic

[Ferno]

"My best friend is on the rocks in a relationship with his long-time girlfriend (who he met through church when they were both in highschool). All that they know (relations wise) is each other."

let me guess.. they're both under twnety-five and they're bored. right?


I've seen a lot of porn, but i still get hot for the girl next door.

[xceptional1]

Yeah. He's dated like one other girl, and she's never even kissed another guy. They've been together for about 5 years or something? I personally think they're both too insecure to ever break up. To me, a solid relationship is built on more than materalistic things, and you shouldn't limit yourself based on that. I'm not knocking virgins, but choosing a partner with requirements such as that is really cutting yourself short. I guess what makes me mad is I used to be just like I think the way he is now. I just knew the first girl that I really was going to have feelings for would be an untouched virgin, and she wasn't. And it didn't matter, I always thought it would - I guess thats why I changed my views.

Ok, I'm done highjacking

[Gooberman]

I guess having considered Bash's point, and read the responses of others here, I would consider Porn very similar to alcohol. Alcohol in itself isn't wrong or bad, but some people shouldn't drink. If someone can't have fun without alcohol, then they shouldn't drink. If someone can't get up without porn then they shouldn't watch it. And there are some people whom you will meet, where there is just something about them, something that would make drinking bad for them. Perhaps they couldnâ??t handle having it, or perhaps they couldnâ??t handle not having it once they started. I think this can be the same with porn.

anyway, if I am ever in the situation where I canâ??t get up and watch porn, I will stop watching porn. But that isnâ??t the case now, and I would be very surprised for it to become the case in my near future.

[TheCops]

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Apr/04162004 ... 157707.asp

Adult film industry shuts down

By Gregory J. Wilcox
Los Angeles Daily News

LOS ANGELES -- Much of the San Fernando Valley's multibillion-dollar adult-movie business stopped production Thursday as it banned nearly four dozen actors and actresses from working after two tested positive for the AIDS virus, industry officials said.
Companies that churn out movies in what is estimated to be a $9 billion to $13 billion industry took a cautionary approach to the scare, which was revealed by the health agency that the industry created several years ago as part of its self-policing of sexually transmitted diseases.
"At this point we have delayed production. We're not sure when we will start again because it's too soon to tell what the impact will be. Our main concern is the health and safety and welfare of our talent," said Micsha Allen, marketing manager at VCA Pictures in Chatsworth.

[Testiculese]

I wonder how Ashcroft got in there with that needle? Pretty slick maneuvering.

[Ferno]

I'm not sure i can see your correlation between alcohol and porn goober. One is a liquid drug, and the other is a visual medium..

Porn's only there for when the guy wants to fantasize.

Cops.. why did they have to shut down? i'm sure they can find other 'talent' and have the 48 people retire.

[Tyranny]

So they can test everybody in the industry and keep it contained. As the article mentioned they've only had about a dozen instances of adult actors testing posetive for AIDS since 1989. I'd say that is pretty decent when you consider how sexually active the actors are within the industry.

They film almost constantly. They did mention not "everybody" would stop working, but for the most part they're trying to cover all the bases. Course, I'm wondering if the media is giving the correct information. They may just be testing posetive for HIV, the virus that causes AIDS and they aren't actually infected with the AIDS virus itself.

Regardless it is a pretty moot point really. Testing posetive for either one is enough concern for the individuals involved. This isn't the first time this has happend obviously, and it won't be the last. It's bound to happen in an industry that makes a profit off of acts that can also transmit diseases.

[woodchip]

My point about porn causing people to grow up single and horny is not something I have observed--only what seems to me the logical conclusion of the way women react to porn and the way it changes men.

Drak, you are missing out on the basic concept that men are visual. Images of women nude don't cause boys to grow up single and horny...mother nature has made them horny already. I suspect those who stay single are either gay or have issues that porn didn't create. Some tried to say violent video games create violent people but as we all know that is a fallacy also.
Women, I suspect, don't get into porn to the degree men do because women view sex on a more emotional, less visual, level. Not to say women don't appreciate viewing a nicely formed male, but I think the majority of females want the emotional aspect of a relationship along with sex. Young horny men don't need the emotional involement typified by the old saying, "wham, bam, thank you Mam".
I think just the opposite of what you suggest may occur. To much porn may make a person innured to its effects, much as people in nudist colonies don't walk around in a constant state of arousal. I suspect even though a guy may have looked at porn, when the right girl comes along he will be on his best behavior.

On the other hand Cops may have the right of it. I suspect too many relationships start out confusing lust with love.

[bash]

Woody pops a good question. There's such a thing as *libidinal energy* and I would contend that that energy is what drives a young man to find a mate. Anyone who's ever experienced orgasm (or watched Something About Mary) knows that energy drains quite dramatically post-orgasm and a young man's thinking and drive changes. Consider that, those of you without girlfriends. That energy is there to assist your search and provide the motivational energy to breach inhibitions and ask a woman for a date. If it's constantly being drained through masturbating to porn, I would contend you are harming your natural ability and chances at finding a long-term mate.

[Tetrad]

But it keeps my sheets clean, which makes it all even out in the end.

[TheCops]

The Greatest Love of All

am i misinterpreting?

[Ferno]

I'm not sure if I understand you bash.. by your logic that would mean a guy enters a permanent refractory period. and I don't think that's physically impossible.

[Lothar]

lol @ woodchip thinking Drak doesn't understand how men are visual... re-read her posts. She says it something like 4 or 5 times.

[Gooberman]

I'm not sure i can see your correlation between alcohol and porn goober. One is a liquid drug, and the other is a visual medium..

I was just making the relation that it can be ok for some, but bad for others. That small amounts can be harmless, but an addiction could also occur and be very damaging too an individual. That even for one individual, it can be ok during some point of his life, but a very bad thing at a different time in his life.

[Tyranny]

Woody, I think you mis-read the posts where we were making comparisons between porn and violent video games. Most of us were in agreement that violent video games do not make violent people. The people that receive motivation to do horrible things via violent media would have found a reason to do those things regardless of whatever they were exposed to in the first place because they weren't quite right to begin with.

The comparison was used in defense that men who objectify women usually do so based on their upbringing more then anything. Meaning that usually their opinions of women are formed a lot from their fathers treatment of women or the way people they associate with treat women.

I tend to disagree with bashy's last statement however. I would imagine that most of the guys here are on the same page regarding how strong the male sex drive is and although porn is used as a stimulus in some regards, it isn't enough to be a deterant for seeking out relationships unless you're completely anti-social in which case you're kind of up a creek without a paddle. All I can say to those that are is that you've pretty much sealed the discontinuation of your bloodline

Although sex isn't the only reason to seek out relationships, I do believe sexual attraction is a very substantial reason for relationships being formed. This is, unfortunately, why a lot of relationships do not last because a lot of people find the original reasons for getting together aren't enough to keep the relationship intact.

This comes back to exactly what woody said, that too many people enter into relations with other people on the grounds of pure lust, and not love.

[Ferno]

Goob, addiction is bad regardless of what it is. I can use your logic and say smoking crack is good for some but bad for others. and that it's okay at one point in life but bad at another.

[Jeff250]

Speaking of unrealistic expectations, let's talk about chick flicks for a moment. "The Prince & Me"-- WTF, how am I supposed to compete with that? Now I have to be a prince?

I mean, has anyone ever seen a girl watch one of these things? They get that glossiness in the eyes, giddy overall gestures, periodical swooning-- it's like they're looking at porn. Then I sneeze or something, and they turn and took at me, and then it hits them, I have 12 bucks to my name, am driving "Cyclops," the one-headlighted Buick, and not heir to rule any European countries.

Now, that doesn't only affect me. It affects them too. It makes all of us guys look like jerks, even more jerkish and scrubby than we really are. It sets them up to be unsatisfied with future relationships, and to have a hatred for men.

That's why "men : porn :: women : chick flicks."

Porn seeks to stimulate the physical essences that men find so invigorating, whilst chick flicks mess with the emotional, wishy washy essences that women are into.

That's why I'm interested in seeing "The Girl Next Door," since it has the prospect of merging chick flick romance WITH porn star action, into some sort of unstoppable medium, the wave of the future.

So I understand where many women are coming from on this issue, and I empathetically feel your pain. That's why I suggest a treaty, or cease-fire of sorts. I will not look at porn, but only if you quit watching your chick flicks.

[Ferno]

"I will not look at porn, but only if you quit watching your chick flicks."

unfortunately this is not a reasonable request to them. they'll accuse you of being controlling, a jerk, an a-hole, ad nauseum. sucks that they expect the benefits but not the responsibilities, huh. I guess a good response is 'ok, have it your way. I'm just not gonna pay for your movie tickets anymore'

[Beowulf]

Going back to bash's point of porn desensitizing people, I disagree. I mean, you may have seen a thousand titties (is titties a degrading term? )
but does that mean that you still don't enjoy seeing a nice pair of breasts? Does that mean you don't like seeing a girl in a bathing suit even? I agree with Ferno...I still gots the hots for the girl next door.

And bash, maybe you're problem is God's way of saying "No hard feelings"

[Tyranny]

Beo, I would have stuck with "breasts" and tried to continue the amount of tasteful posts since the flame war ended Whatever

Jeff, you make a really good point. It isn't only chick flix either. Romance Novels, beefcake and other material are on the other end of the spectrum from your everyday porn where women can potentially create a standard that isn't realistic for most men to achieve.

The point is both genders have stuff that, depending on the type of people viewing it, could influence sexual ideals and habits.