Below 8000

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:51 pm

Stock market closed below 8000 for the first time in 6 years. Congrats politicians, keep telling us what you are not going to do. Congrats Obama for not saying you won't raise taxes when you take over. Dink around long enough and there won't be enough people working for you to spread the wealth.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:01 pm

Well, our net worth has now dropped by 30% from it's previous high point and is now back to a March 2003 level. Our retirement accounts no longer make anywhere near enough money now to even worry about having our taxes raised. We're getting poorer by the day.

MD-1118 · Post by **MD-1118** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:42 pm

Good. Hopefully it won't take much more to get this nation to wake up and smell the faux pas.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:00 pm

Nobody has gotten \"poorer\", we've only learned what was true all along. We as a nation were living on borrowed money for a long time, and the world credit markets were a pyramid scheme. Now that's collapsed and we're all left with a better assessment of what we actually own.

We have 30% less money (as valued in stocks). You can buy a house for 30% less than at peak. *shrug*

Dakatsu · Post by **Dakatsu** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:06 pm

woodchip wrote:Stock market closed below 8000 for the first time in 6 years. Congrats politicians, keep telling us what you are not going to do. Congrats Obama for not saying you won't raise taxes when you take over. Dink around long enough and there won't be enough people working for you to spread the wealth.

Bush is still in office, Obama has not taken office yet, you cannot blame him for anything occurring before he even takes the office!

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:10 pm

Dakatsu wrote:
woodchip wrote:Stock market closed below 8000 for the first time in 6 years. Congrats politicians, keep telling us what you are not going to do. Congrats Obama for not saying you won't raise taxes when you take over. Dink around long enough and there won't be enough people working for you to spread the wealth.
Bush is still in office, Obama has not taken office yet, you cannot blame him for anything occurring before he even takes the office!

The argument is that people are selling stocks so they don't get hit with a higher tax after Obama and company take over. So yes I can partially blame him.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:24 pm

\"Below 8000\" ...

... is a buying opportunity.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:13 am

dissent wrote:"Below 8000" ...

... is a buying opportunity.

X2!

There's a fire sale going on right now. Take advantage of it.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:19 am

Can't take advantage if you have no money.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:23 am

CDN_Merlin wrote:Can't take advantage if you have no money.

That is true at any time.

If you have no money, you shouldn't be investing in stock market in the first place. And as Lothar has already said (and I'm paraphrasing) owning a large stock portfolio isn't the same as having a lot of money.

So from that standpoint, nothing has actually changed.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:39 am

CDN_Merlin wrote:Can't take advantage if you have no money.

Take out a second mortgage on your house, buy fundamentally sound but currently undervalued stocks, if they go up you win the big prize if they go down let the government pay your mortgage off and you win second prize...it's the new American way! yea! hoorah.....

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:42 am

I don't own a house. I actually don't own anything but my car and I'm still paying that off. I'm at a new chapter in my life and I'm starting over from scratch after seperating from my ex. I've got nothing and barely nothing. Only about $20G in debt but it's enough when I don't make enough money to pay it off.

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:04 am

Here's how these days do hurt us all:

Food prices are going up. (Okay, food isn't that much of people's budgets, but it's a valid point.)

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:08 am

snoopy wrote:Here's how these days do hurt us all:

Food prices are going up. (Okay, food isn't that much of people's budgets, but it's a valid point.)

Food isn't that much of a budget? I used to spend abotu $400 a month on food with my ex. We were only 2 people. Imagine a family of 4 or more?

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:35 pm

Well, it just came out that the consumer price index fell by 1% in October, so now we have deflation, EXCEPT for health care, which went up by 40% last year (and still keeps climbing) and of course, energy costs, although gas prices have fallen recently. The U.S. can't really recover as long as we have such massive debt. We're in deep poop now and this may last for decades kiddies, if our previous Great Depression is any indication.

MD-1118 · Post by **MD-1118** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:03 pm

CDN_Merlin wrote:
snoopy wrote:Here's how these days do hurt us all:

Food prices are going up. (Okay, food isn't that much of people's budgets, but it's a valid point.)
Food isn't that much of a budget? I used to spend abotu $400 a month on food with my ex. We were only 2 people. Imagine a family of 4 or more?

Our family of five usually manages to get by on about a hundred dollars' worth of groceries each month... but then, we're thrifty scrimpers.

AlphaDoG · Post by **AlphaDoG** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:08 pm

Conning the people at the food banks by telling them you are destitute does not count!

MD-1118 · Post by **MD-1118** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:14 pm

We've only been to a food bank once, and that was years ago. We're just really good at making money stretch.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:04 pm

Congress can kiss my shiny metal ass, they have 700 billion bucks for the bailout, but nothing for the auto industry.

A Pox!!!

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:56 pm

Spidey, the domestic US auto industry is not on a competetive cost basis with other automakers -
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm2135.cfm

Domestic US manufacturers sell a lot of cars, but they lose money on each unit they sell
http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/26/news/co ... /index.htm

All in all, the report paints a bleak picture. While Nissan (Charts) was making $1800 per vehicle during the first half of 2006, and Toyota and Honda (Charts) racked up $1,400 apiece, nine-month results for Ford saw them losing $1,400 per vehicle - a number that will go up when the fourth quarter's loss is tallied - while DaimlerChrysler (Charts) dropped $1100 and GM $333.

It sucks for the workers. It sucks for the stockholders. Both have been mislead by their respective managements. A bankruptcy with a restructuring may be the only way to save any of the domestic US auto industry.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:23 pm

Yea, Yea, Yea…

Tell me something I don’t already know…

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:32 pm

If we bail out the auto industry then we should bail out crack addicts and prostitutes that are too old to get work...and typewriter repairmen....all the losers who play lottery scratch off tickets every day....the owners of the Titanic....Milli Vanilli.....
Come on spread it around a little bit!!!

Remember that 700 billion dollar bailout of the Banks? Remember how bad we needed it right away?!?
Well they used the money they got to buy up smaller banks! They still aren't lending anything to the little people but they sure are padding their asset sheets! So now the geniuses in Washington are trying to come up with a new plan...and whenever they do you can bet we'll need to do it right away!.

Thomas Jefferson just rolled over in his grave and threw up a little bit in his mouth.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:35 pm

Will Robinson wrote: Thomas Jefferson just rolled over in his grave and threw up a little bit in his mouth.

The same Jefferson who doubled the size of our country's territory by nebulously defining an extension of presidential power that didn't even really fool himself?

[/devilsadvocate]

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:55 pm

And that's bad? No one's doubling anything here, except the amount of **** we're in.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:05 pm

However you might want to look at it, losing +/- 3 million jobs will destroy this economy and plunge us into a depression. If times were better I'd say let the big 3 file for chapter 11, reorganize and come out stronger. Unfortunately now is not the time to throw the baby out with the bath water. I'll guarantee you this, if congress approves the money, watch the stock market rise and perhaps we will only have a recession. Don't approve it and you'll be living through what your grandparents did back in the 30's.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:06 pm

Will, You Funny...

The auto makers only want a loan, what is so horrible about a loan? Banks aren’t loaning, so where do they go? I have no problem with low interest loans to business. You make it sound like they are giving the money away.

I am against the entire bailout in the first place, but since they are going to do it anyway…they might as well lend some to what is one of the most important industries in the US.

Chrysler repaid their loan back in the day, with interest.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:26 pm

The entire credit crisis is based on extending credit to those who don't qualify.
The Big 3 don't have a sound business model so a loan doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Let them reorganize, dump their union contracts, loose the protected dealers, Obama is going to give everyone health insurance so they can drop that from the new contracts and most important build a car that people want to buy at a price the Big 3 can make a profit on.

I bet you could go back and find end-of-economy predictions when the Japanese and Germans out performed us in the steel industry too. We survived it.

The market knows the difference between a good product and a mis-managed product that the government is trying to prop up....it isn't going to rebound just because a bunch of politicians dumped tax payer money into a burning building!

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:38 pm

Spidey wrote:The auto makers only want a loan, what is so horrible about a loan?

Yeah, but any of the Big Three have to be making money in order to repay a loan. At present all are hemorrhaging cash. Giving them a loan only lets them suffer on life support a little longer before they croak.

Corporate management and the unions have put themselves in this situation where, in order to meet a competetive price point with other manufacturers, the big three have to sell each unit at a loss. Eventually, the heart runs out of blood to pump.

And Woody, when (IF!) they reorganize, they probably wwill lose some jobs, but hardly all. There's still a world market for their brands and products, but they have to bring their costs down to levels that allow them to earn a profit when they sell a vehicle.

Hostile · Post by **Hostile** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:15 am

No auto industry bailout....! Out of the ashes of that fallen industry will come a set of competitive companies and better products. Trying to prop up what they have now is ridiculous at best. Companies have to be allowed to fail for companies to really succeed.....

And we will NOT have a situation like what happened in the 30s no matter how bad this gets.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:52 am

Hostile wrote:Companies have to be allowed to fail for companies to really succeed.....

That's exactly right!

Gekko71 · Post by **Gekko71** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:37 am

tunnelcat wrote:Well, it just came out that the consumer price index fell by 1% in October, so now we have deflation, EXCEPT for health care, which went up by 40% last year (and still keeps climbing) and of course, energy costs, although gas prices have fallen recently. The U.S. can't really recover as long as we have such massive debt. We're in deep poop now and this may last for decades kiddies, if our previous Great Depression is any indication.

Not really Tunnelcat - if the CPI had been falling by 3-5% pcm for 6 months straight and was projected to keep on doing so, THEN you would have deflation. A one-month fall is only a correction.

Before anyone calls this semantics, please remember a correction and deflation are radicaly different propositions for an economy. Corrections aren't a major problem, even after a few months of correction. With deflation (and long term deflation in particular)in an economy ...well there's usually only one thing you can do:

...go through its pockets and look for loose change.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:47 am

20 billion in loans to the auto industry…NO!

700 billion to the financial industry…Sure.

I don’t see the logic.

I guess the old saying is correct…Money talks, and the workers can walk

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:59 am

Gekko71 wrote:...well there's usually only one thing you can do:

...go through its pockets and look for loose change.

I'd recognize that line anywhere.

... Sorry, you may now return to the discussion in progress.

Cuda68 · Post by **Cuda68** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:12 am

woodchip wrote:
Dakatsu wrote:
woodchip wrote:Stock market closed below 8000 for the first time in 6 years. Congrats politicians, keep telling us what you are not going to do. Congrats Obama for not saying you won't raise taxes when you take over. Dink around long enough and there won't be enough people working for you to spread the wealth.
Bush is still in office, Obama has not taken office yet, you cannot blame him for anything occurring before he even takes the office!
The argument is that people are selling stocks so they don't get hit with a higher tax after Obama and company take over. So yes I can partially blame him.

Obama is a Democrat, it is our duty as Republicans to blame him.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:10 am

Spidey wrote:20 billion in loans to the auto industry…NO!

700 billion to the financial industry…Sure.

I don’t see the logic.

I guess the old saying is correct…Money talks, and the workers can walk

Well, a lot of people were dead set against the 700 billion bailout to begin with. I was so against it, I wrote both my Senators and my Congressman and told them I would vote against them in November if they voted for the bailout. They did, and I kept my promise.

TheCope · Post by **TheCope** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:04 pm

My 401k is down 37% from this date last year. ★■◆●.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:42 pm

Oh and Congress, while your bailing out your friends that caused the crisis, and letting the others who are suffering, flap in the wind, why don’t you go and put the icing on the cake, and derank one of the biggest advocates of the auto industry, and replace him with an environmental wacko!

Way to go!

BTW…good for you, Dedman.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:15 pm

Dedmen since the Senate/congress have their own little pension plan, how much you want to bet they didn't see a 30% drop?

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:04 pm

Spidey wrote:BTW…good for you, Dedman.

A lot of good it did. My corrupt Democratic congressman won with nearly 90% of the vote. My Republican Senator is in a run off. I will get to vote against him twice!

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:32 pm

Well it would appear the Dems are finally facing reality:

\"Speaking to CBS News on Sunday, Ms Pelosi said any stimulus package should be aimed at creating jobs immediately, and could contain a tax cut.

\"Something of several hundred billion would have to be some investment into the future, plus creating jobs immediately, and a tax cut,\" she said.\"

Starting to sound like Bush back 2001 no?

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