Question on multiplayer design

DarkFlameWolf · Post by **DarkFlameWolf** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:30 pm

First off, before we get into this: does anyone still play Descent 2 multiplayer? I have an idea for a neat multiplayer level, but I'd like to poll out the players to what what specifically (vague answers like, 'it has to have good flow!' isn't going to cut it) do people look for in a successful multiplayer level. Maybe I can incorporate some of those ideas. Thanks for any input.

Sniper · Post by **Sniper** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:50 pm

Yes, a few people still play Descent 2 on Kali. As for design, I can't speak for anyone else, but I can speak for me

A few important factors:

a. physical map layout
b. weapons layout
c. aesthetics

Map layout will vary depending on the type of multiplayer level you're aiming at, and the type of person playing the mission. We are all comfortable playing at our own style. People who love Keg Party and Minerva styled levels may not enjoy an arena-type level. So, you can't please them all. Whatever style you do choose - do it well.

Weapons layout and balance is very important. Too many weapons and the game can become boring. Too few and the same happens (or for at least one person). Fighting over just the right amount of weapons can be fun.

And aesthetics are important, at least they are to me. I don't want to be playing in some fugly, messed up, 16-tone textured clown map that doesn't make any sense. Choose a theme, choose a few textures, and stick with it. Be consistent. You don't have to use every single texture. More textures != better level design.

Judging by some of the levels you've submitted over at the DMDB, I'd say you're all set up to make a fine multiplayer level.

DarkFlameWolf · Post by **DarkFlameWolf** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:54 pm

yes, but would anyone play it? my most recent set was the six level: chaos theory. It had some nice designs (or so I thought), had a pretty decent weapon balance and was definitely not fugly. But nobody seems to want to play the set, probably because its 'too advanced' of level design maybe? To detailed?

akula65 · Post by **akula65** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:16 pm

I was going to suggest having a look at Stealth's Hangar to see what was played/popular in Descent (D2) Revivals, but all I can say is R.I.P. Stealth's Hangar...:

http://www.stealthshangar.com/

Wayback Machine doesn't have actual levels archived, but perhaps you can get them from PD/DF.

Sniper · Post by **Sniper** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:25 pm

I would play them

Neo · Post by **Neo** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:45 pm

Put the Helix Cannon in there. =P

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:43 pm

I don't really have the chance to play the game any more, at least in multiplayer, but there are a few things that tend to help make a good level.

The appearance is only the sort of thing that sets it apart. A lot of people don't particularly care about it, as evidenced by the sort of levels that were popular back in D2's heyday - they mostly looked like copies of each other. Anyway, I don't need to give you advice on how to make a level look good.

Weapon balance is a subjective thing - you aren't forced to one paradigm, and different people will like different things even - but you do at least have to ensure that you know what effects the weapons in the level will have on how it plays. For example, if you have mega missiles and there's no real way to dodge them, you'd better want that behaviour - although chances are it won't be a popular call anyway...

I could go into more specifics on that but it'd make the post a lot longer... suffice it to say; just spare a moment to ask yourself how certain guns, especially the powerful ones and some specialty stuff like Phoenix, will behave in the level. Or you could go for a \"standard\" loadout if you don't feel particularly adventurous... either way try not to \"spam\" the level with weapons. Check out other popular levels if you need to research an appropriate number of guns/missiles of each type.

Now the hardest one, gameplay/flow... there aren't any hard-and-fast rules on this except a couple:

Dead ends are usually a bad thing, and should be used sparingly if at all (in most levels they only appear in the reactor room)
The level structure shouldn't get in the way. By this, I mean it should be possible for a player to move from one room into another without having to specifically look where they're going. If they get caught up on corners or fancy geometry all the time, it's going to be annoying.

Past that, it depends how you want the level to play. Most levels tend to stick to only a few energy centres and relatively simple hallways, but there's no reason you need to do that.

I'll ... come back to this later, there's a fair deal about layouts still to say once I can organise my thoughts a bit...

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:03 pm

It’s hit and miss…If you are trying to build a level that “people will play in” good luck. As far as the formula for the popular levels played in Kali, and the ladders….

One large room, a few smaller rooms, connected by 20x20 click tunnels….

As for me, I always liked the more unique levels, but they were never played.

Build a level because you want to, or be prepared to be disappointed.

flip · Post by **flip** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:43 pm

I ca ntell you whats mostly played.
Athena
Nysa
Minerva
Neptune

If you want the level to be played dont make it too big or too confusing. I hate sunday drive levels where you spawn and it seems like you have to fly for minutes just to find someone to kill. Make it small and fast and chances are it will be played. No more than 4 players otherwise its gonna be unrealistic (not that many players left). Once you get something your happy with offer it to me. I can guarantee it will be played at least once

Lobber made a level recently that I liked alot called Penumbra. It's a level where you can really never feel safe no matter where your at and must always keep moving. Some liked it some didn't. I myself though it was original and unlike most I've seen.

DarkFlameWolf · Post by **DarkFlameWolf** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:08 am

Its not much yet, that's just part of the main room. Its already 300+ cubes and it'll probably reach the 800 cube limit for D1. (I'm building it for my 50 level Descent 1 SP set, but also building it with a mind for a multiplayer design, so it will serve dual purposes) The D2 cube limit is 900, but must stick with 800 to make it work for my D1 set. But for the D2 version, I'll be replacing all textures with custom ones and for robot anarchy lovers, I'll be putting a select few Enemy Within robots for kicks. And I'll be altering a few things to make it flow better for multiplayer. (like in SP where there are locked blue/red doors, they are just normal doors. The exit tunnel will be a new way to get to somewhere else, etc.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:58 pm

Probably calls for mega missiles. Vulcan wouldn't hurt either. In a large area like that some help to hit things wouldn't go astray.

Also keep in mind that players automatically start with all keys in multiplayer modes (except co-operative, for obvious reasons). So you don't really need to worry about that.

Sniper · Post by **Sniper** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:42 pm

You definitely have a way with cubes. Nice job! I'd love to play in this level!

DarkFlameWolf · Post by **DarkFlameWolf** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:56 pm

Weapon loadout:
4 Lasers
2 Super Lasers
2 Vulcan Cannons
1 Guass Cannon
4 Spreadfires
2 Plasma Cannons
1 Phoenix Cannon
1 Fusion Cannon
6 Single Guided Missiles
4 4-pack Concussion Missiles
2 4-pack Homing Missiles
3 4-pack Flash Missiles
3 4-pack Mercury Missiles
6 Smart Missiles
2 Mega Missiles
1 Earthshaker Missile
4 Proximity Mine Packs
2 Smart Mine Packs
1 Quad Laser
1 Shield Converter
6 Afterburners
8 Vulcan Ammo

Robot loadout for Robot Anarchy:
7 Terapinners - Guass robots
4 Golems - Smart Missile robots
13 Mantids - Claw robots
5 Gatling - Helix robots
3 Kalkis - Homing Flash Missile and Omega robots
6 Bolas - Fast Phoenix and Smart Missiles robots + Sapper (Slow Phoenix robot) spawner
6 Legionnaires - Plasma and Mercury Missile robots

Also has CTF set up with both bases being relatively close to one another, but either have to go up out of the fortress and down the other side to get their quickly, or go around the base to the door leading to the other base OR going through the fort via four doors to get to the other base. So 3 routes to either location, the defenders should have their work cut out for them, either base!
The level sports both dogfighting and tunnel ratting. Dogfighting for the outdoor (cave) area and ratting for the fortress interior. The strongest weapons are in the interior, but getting out for some breathing room will be tough since they are pretty deep in. The earthshaker has a vulnerable pathway that anyone can see and stop you from getting it if you're gunning for it. (fourth screenshot)
Its not yet released, almost, just a small problem on my end that I want to verify that it doesn't occur on other machines. Should be released soon and hopefully people will actually play this level.

DarkFlameWolf · Post by **DarkFlameWolf** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:34 am

the level is released on the DMB database that Sniper built. So if anyone can test it out, play in it, give me feedback, I can update it a bit. The structure won't change much, so don't make suggestions to radically change the level design, but weapon layout, etc. can be altered easily.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:56 am

If anyone can make D2 look good, it's you!

Sniper · Post by **Sniper** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:24 am

You can download Forgotten Fortress here. And view the details of the mission here.

DarkFlameWolf · Post by **DarkFlameWolf** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:17 pm

Where does everybody play these days with Descent 2? Is anyone playing this in multiplayer?