Induced Labor

[Ferno]

maybe we'll fill the hole up next to the cliff with bs.

better than crazy bat-turd.

It seems untenable that local government would attempt to pass off a false document

It's a conspiracy!

[woodchip]

A conspiracy much like the 9/11 one you championed?

[dissent]

Technology sucks doesn't it?

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not. My point in my two prior posts was to point out that you can't directly compare the two documents you posted, since they weren't the same kind of document. The info from the WikiAnswers link seems to agree with me on that.

[Will Robinson]

If you have a contemporaneous announcement from the local paper that verifies the certificate, I don't see that the argument has much merit....

I see announcements printed in the paper all the time about events that happen to locals who are away for extended time periods and ex locals that recently moved out of the area.
People will phone the paper in their home town or old home town to announce a birth or wedding or death to let their friends and neighbors know about it...it doesn't mean it happened in the town the paper is printed in.

So without some other evidence that announcement is very weak at best, since the other evidence is also questionable it leaves the door wide open.
That's the problem I have with the way Obama has handled this whole thing, he hasn't tried to convince anyone he is a citizen and his lack of effort is fueling the conspiracy.

It is quite possible he was born outside of the States to a young mother who can not pass naturalized citizen status on to her son, weird law but the law just the same. So they send the announcement to the local paper and apply for a birth certificate after they return to Hawaii and if anyone really investigated the actual document the validity of the citizen status just becomes more questionable so they are in no hurry to have investigators look into it, get sworn depositions from those involved etc. since once threatened with consequences for lying under oath people tend to back away from peddling fiction.

Or he was born in Hawaii and he's just a stubborn guy who would rather not put this issue to rest. Maybe he needs the haters to keep circling to keep his martyr/victim chip on his shoulder.

Either argument holds up equally well under the limited amount of real evidence that has been made available to the public. So you can say those who think he isn't a citizen are driving a conspiracy bus off the cliff but they can, with equal confidence and substance, say you are overdosing in a Obama Kool-Aid drinking binge.

[Foil]

Looks like these need to be posted, as some people aren't doing their homework before jumping to conclusions:

Birth certification:

(yes, it's a 'short form' certification, from the records department, issued 2007)

Signature Stamp:

(Note that it's backwards on the image AD posted, because the date stamp bled through from the back)

Raised seal:


Birth announcement from Honolulu newspaper, Aug. 13, 1961:


(source)

[dissent]

I see announcements printed in the paper all the time about events that happen to locals who are away for extended time periods and ex locals that recently moved out of the area.
People will phone the paper in their home town or old home town to announce a birth or wedding or death to let their friends and neighbors know about it...it doesn't mean it happened in the town the paper is printed in.

well, an address is listed in the announcements that appears to be local; if it wasn't. I'm sure someone would have mentioned it by now. It's still not impossible that this didn't happen in Hawaii, but I still don't see a compelling reason to dispute the Hawaii location.

That's the problem I have with the way Obama has handled this whole thing, he hasn't tried to convince anyone he is a citizen and his lack of effort is fueling the conspiracy.

agreed. he's the president - you'd think he could get a copy (redacted as necessary) of the original certificate and publish it. However, even this would probably not satify the most avid of the conspiracy theorists.

[Will Robinson]

...
well, an address is listed in the announcements that appears to be local; if it wasn't. I'm sure someone would have mentioned it by now.

That could be their old address before leaving or even an address they would return to after they left Kenya or wherever they were when he was born. I have a friend who was born a dual citizen, his parents owned a house here as well as in Europe, he had the option to declare citizenship to either country, eventually he chose the U.S. but he can't be President....

That's the problem I have with the way Obama has handled this whole thing, he hasn't tried to convince anyone he is a citizen and his lack of effort is fueling the conspiracy.

agreed. he's the president - you'd think he could get a copy (redacted as necessary) of the original certificate and publish it. However, even this would probably not satify the most avid of the conspiracy theorists.

It would separate the nuts from the hopeful though, then the story would be reduced to The BS News papers
...or...
we would have a really screwed up situation where McCain could sue to take over the Presidency and Joe Biden would sue to take it and the race riots would begin and Russia would start taking territory while we sat on our thumbs waiting for Greta Van Sustern and Geraldo to tell us what the Supreme Court will decide and our allies would be like WTF?? did you morons do to us?!?!

[Duper]

Thank you foil. well done!

[flip]

Would it have been that hard to just present a copy of the original, hand written birth certificate? Considering what was at stake, I would have went the extra mile to put this to rest.

[Foil]

It might not be difficult, but if I were in Obama's position, I wouldn't touch this subject, either.

Making the original document public is much more likely to blow up into more of a mess, than just letting this blow over:

1. Because arguing with idiots makes you look like an idiot.
2. Defending absurd accusations gives credence to them (insofar as they now appear credible enough to require one to have to defend against them).
3. Arguing against the conspiracy would give it more publicity, i.e. something similar to the Streisand effect.

If it comes to an official inquiry, I believe the document would be made public.

[dissent]

That could be their old address before leaving or even an address they would return to after they left Kenya or wherever they were when he was born.

certainly a possibility.

...or...
we would have a really screwed up situation where McCain could sue to take over the Presidency and Joe Biden would sue to take it and the race riots would begin and Russia would start taking territory while we sat on our thumbs waiting for Greta Van Sustern and Geraldo to tell us what the Supreme Court will decide and our allies would be like WTF?? did you morons do to us?!?!

exactly. in which case, I'd probably prefer to leave "O" in as Prez ...


... but ask me again in 6-9 months after we (start to?) see the effect(s) of the "stimulus" bill.

[Will Robinson]

....
Making the original document public is much more likely to blow up into more of a mess, than just letting this blow over:...

I disagree, this thing has been boiling over, not blowing over, for a year!
If the document is what he wants us to believe it is, presenting it would make the whole thing go away overnight. On the other hand, if it isn't legit then I agree with you in that it will be a big mess.

When dealing with politicians it isn't unreasonable to question why they don't seek the obvious solution to a problem because history has shown us repeatedly they usually have personal gain as their motive for not doing so.

[Spidey]

He’s the president, get over it.

Somehow this issue did not dissuade the majority of voters from voting for him, that pretty much makes this a moot point.

And someone should tell that idiot in the service that his allegiance is to the constitution, not the president. (not yet anyway )

[AlphaDoG]

Technology sucks doesn't it?

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not. My point in my two prior posts was to point out that you can't directly compare the two documents you posted, since they weren't the same kind of document. The info from the WikiAnswers link seems to agree with me on that.

Sorry Dissent, I'm not agreeing with you, or for that matter, disagreeing with you, I was making a blanket statement.

But you make a great point.

[Ferno]

A conspiracy much like the 9/11 one you championed?

lol. what does this have to do with anything?

[woodchip]

Fern, just meant perhaps you should not be so quick to mock a person for their theories

[woodchip]

He’s the president, get over it.

Somehow this issue did not dissuade the majority of voters from voting for him, that pretty much makes this a moot point.

Not really. Voters voted for a person they thought was a true American citizen. If it turns out they were duped, then I suppose things could get real interesting. The birth certificate issue is much akin to the hanging chad issue when Bush was first voted in.

And someone should tell that idiot in the service that his allegiance is to the constitution, not the president. (not yet anyway )

Actually no. The POTUS is commander in chief of all military branches. If it turns out he is a fraud then he may very well have a right to object. A similar situation would getting pulled over by a guy with a stolen squad car and wearing a stolen police uniform. Are you obligated to pay the ticket he issues you?

[woodchip]

And finally I come to this jewel of a post:

The only "Alfred E" I see here is Alfred E Woodchip. Keep up the hatred... It suits you.

I'm sorry little miss inept poster, did I interrupt a moist panty's moment you were having about Glorious Leader when you read my post? Where was the hate in this post? Ohh "snaps fingers" any critical thoughts about Alfred is deemed to be "hate think" eh? Do you have any clue as to why I use Alfred E.Obama? Let me help you out.

Alfred E. Neuman was the iconic dip on the Mad Magazine cover whose motto "What, Me Worry?" fits Barack Hussein Obama to a T. You actually believe Obama actually is in office because he wants to serve the people? He is there to boost his ego. All you see of him, all the air time he gets, all the gad-a-bout traveling he does is one big ego trip.

The country is sliding downhill economically and like Nero, all Obama can do is fiddle around and make good sounding meaningless speeches. The Dow Jones is burning President Obama, so you hire a tax cheat to be treasury secretary. Really, how impressive is that?

So I am sorry if I and others are throwing cold water on your Great Black Hope of a President, but I think the term hopeless at this point in time is a more accurate assessment.

[Spidey]

Woody, I know that President is the Commander in Chief, my point is that the military takes its oath to the constitution, not the President. I get your point, but the problem is…Obama “is” the President. I also understand chain of command, and I know you do too, but you are just being partisan.

He was sworn in, and is in fact the President. We have to work off the assumption that Obama is the legal president, if not then the system fails. And even if someone provided proof that Obama was in ineligible, he would in fact still be President until removed.

That’s the way the system works, if you don’t like it, work to change it.

“If it turns out he is a fraud then he may very well have a right to object.” Yes, that I agree to.

[Will Robinson]

...A similar situation would getting pulled over by a guy with a stolen squad car and wearing a stolen police uniform. Are you obligated to pay the ticket he issues you?

It depends. Were you speeding through my neighborhood and will I get the benefit of the money you pay in fines?
Couldn't resist the chance to illustrate the way politics works versus what the law dictates. The law has been taking second place to politics for a long time now.
My guess is even if Obama is proven to be a dual citizen and ineligible he won't lose the Presidency because his party owns the congress right now.

Not only that, I'll bet somewhere in Nancy Pelosi's office is the rough draft of the legislation that will be used, already drawn up just in case!

[VonVulcan]

And finally I come to this jewel of a post:

The only "Alfred E" I see here is Alfred E Woodchip. Keep up the hatred... It suits you.

I'm sorry little miss inept poster, did I interrupt a moist panty's moment you were having about Glorious Leader when you read my post? Where was the hate in this post? Ohh "snaps fingers" any critical thoughts about Alfred is deemed to be "hate think" eh? Do you have any clue as to why I use Alfred E.Obama? Let me help you out.

Alfred E. Neuman was the iconic dip on the Mad Magazine cover whose motto "What, Me Worry?" fits Barack Hussein Obama to a T. You actually believe Obama actually is in office because he wants to serve the people? He is there to boost his ego. All you see of him, all the air time he gets, all the gad-a-bout traveling he does is one big ego trip.

The country is sliding downhill economically and like Nero, all Obama can do is fiddle around and make good sounding meaningless speeches. The Dow Jones is burning President Obama, so you hire a tax cheat to be treasury secretary. Really, how impressive is that?

So I am sorry if I and others are throwing cold water on your Great Black Hope of a President, but I think the term hopeless at this point in time is a more accurate assessment.

LOL, Really, I did LOL! Nice.

[Bet51987]

...So I am sorry if I and others are throwing cold water on your Great Black Hope of a President...

There is no doubt in my mind that all you're hate filled rants about Obama have racist undertones. None whatsoever. It's not that you don't like Obama, you literally hate him. You hide it poorly.

Bettina

[Spidey]

All the minorities in my neighborhood hate Bush, is it because he’s white?

[Will Robinson]

All the minorities in my neighborhood hate Bush, is it because he’s white?

I don't know but you thinking they might think like that makes you a racist.

[Spidey]

Maybe, but the question still stands.

[woodchip]

...A similar situation would getting pulled over by a guy with a stolen squad car and wearing a stolen police uniform. Are you obligated to pay the ticket he issues you?

My guess is even if Obama is proven to be a dual citizen and ineligible he won't lose the Presidency because his party owns the congress right now.

Not only that, I'll bet somewhere in Nancy Pelosi's office is the rough draft of the legislation that will be used, already drawn up just in case!

That would be good as Arnie could run for pres in 2012

[woodchip]

...So I am sorry if I and others are throwing cold water on your Great Black Hope of a President...

There is no doubt in my mind that all you're hate filled rants about Obama have racist undertones. None whatsoever. It's not that you don't like Obama, you literally hate him. You hide it poorly.

Bettina

Yes, yes I am racist. If you look back in my previous posts over the years you will see I am so racist I have repeatedly said if Condoleeza Rice or Colin Powell were to run for POTUS I would vote for them. Since both their parents were African America and Obama had only one, I guess "hating" Obama makes me half racist. Go fish in another pond Bettina, as the water here is obviously too deep for you.

[AlphaDoG]

Not only that, I'll bet somewhere in Nancy Pelosi's office is the rough draft of the legislation that will be used, already drawn up just in case!

Which would have to, in actuality, be an AMENDMENT to the constitution.

[SilverFJ]

Go fish in another pond Bettina, as the water here is obviously too deep for you.

[Foil]

Enough of the flames, folks. Inferences about racism and intelligence? Come on, do it elsewhere.

If anyone wants to call me anything, that's fine. Just do it directly via PM, instead of public flames, 'k?

[SilverFJ]

I neither agree nor disagree with the recent flame, but the flame itself deserved an \"oh snap\"

It's times like those I wish I was an old black guy

[CUDA]

obviously someone doesn't understand what racism is. probably comes from the lack of experience of life.

racism

The belief that some races are inherently superior (physically, intellectually, or culturally) to others and therefore have a right to dominate them.