the american nightmare... uh.. dream

[Octopus]

All of my roommates are listeners of, what I openly call, \"the angry redneck(government's out to get you)\" radio station. Or crap news. (I still listen to it)
So you have people who listen to this and actually believe we'll become communist or a \"police state\" and all that groovy stuff. Big brother is out to get you, bla blah blah.
If we were turning communist in the middle of our global economy, it would be so hard we might not even notice. China is even having trouble holding on to it.
Sorry. Lots of words and no point yet.

Here's my point(somewhere):
Big companies and small businesses are in more control of us than anything else. I'll acknowledge that the government does put money into studying its people's habits but not as much as neilson, google, walmart, and others do. We are loosing our freedoms, but not to a system that we've ever seen before. And we're asking for it. Imagine when they figure out how to improve transportation as well as they did with information using the internet. We'll eat it up.
In short, I see a world where Americans no longer have a right to use currency, perfecting the act of consuming.

[Dedman]

I have never bought into the argument that companies both big and small control us. They don't enact enforceable laws, they can't imprison anyone, and they can't take away anyone's constitutional rights. Only our government can do those things. If you feel that corporations have control over you, it's only because you have allowed that to happen. And if that's the case, then you haven't really been controlled. You've made a choice.

[Will Robinson]

Ditto what Dedman said. The private businesses may study us and shape their model to attract us but they do so by watching what we want and try to entice us into buying their version of it.
Government on the other hand watches what we do, identifies ways to capitalize on our emotions and passions and tries to manipulate us, or flat out force us, into accepting their model of when and where and what we can do.

Here's a clue as to the difference, there are strict laws regarding truth in advertising, there are no laws requiring truth in campaign promises.

[Dakatsu]

I kinda agree... in a sense. While your totally wrong about small corporations, large corporations could lobby the government, such as passing legislation for a major airplane corporation. If a corporation is really powerful and has really powerful lobbyists, then they can.

Also, monopolies (both national and local) always have control of the areas they have monopolized, especially if they offer a necessary service. Where I live (Pinellas County, Florida), a company known as Time Warner (now Brighthouse) raped us because they had no competition, and they had very high prices with absolutely no customer support. The county gladly opened up the county to competition. I have Brighthouse, but since we live in a neighborhood where there is competition, our price and support is much higher.

Now, I'm not saying large corporations or even monopolies are bad (our power company is very nice to us), but they do often have power over the governments around them if they chuck enough lobbyists.

[SilverFJ]

Obama's a commie (pundits prefer to call it \"socialist philosophy\").

\"Spread the money around\"? Seriously?

[Duper]

lol.. yeah. I'd like to see all their faces when he tells them that they ALL make about 40K a year. .. The Pres too.

[Octopus]

I have to say small businesses since some of them also are in the business of controlling people. Many insurance companies are a collection of a dozen agents. And I'll say the local deli by my work has more control over me than anything else.

I think, our government doesn't have a clearer picture of our world than walmart or mcdonalds.

edit:
What I'm saying is there is no \"big brother\". Just people like you and me.

[Dedman]

I kindalarge corporations could lobby the government, such as passing legislation for a major airplane corporation. If a corporation is really powerful and has really powerful lobbyists, then they can.

Large corporations may be able to lobby the government regarding a certain issue but they can't enact any legislation. Only the government can do that. It isn't the corporations that are contolling you. It's the government. And since the government is of the people[/] it really isn't control in the first place. It's The People's conscience choice to be asleep at the wheel and not manage their employees (the government) very well. You as a citizen have the power to fire any of your representatives who you feel is not representing you as you wish. If more people realized they had this power and exercised it more frequently this country wouldn't be in the mess that it is.

Where I live (Pinellas County, Florida), a company known as Time Warner (now Brighthouse) raped us because they had no competition, and they had very high prices with absolutely no customer support.

I am assuming this is a cable company. If so, they didn't rape you. You asked to be violated and apparently got exactly what you asked for. You presumably knew their pricing structure before you signed up. You knew that they were the only game in town before you signed up. You knew there were other alternatives before you signed up. Yet knowing these things, you signed up with them anyway.

Sorry Dakatsu, I think you are way off base with this example. You have many other choices in regards to your TV watching habits. One of which is to stop watching commercial programming all together. Which, if you are that worried about corporations controlling you, is the option you should take.

[Octopus]

There's a struggle between our government, it's people, and entrepreneurial businesses (new ideas). And the entrepreneurs and people are generally on the same side. This is why I made my first post.

China claimed they were censoring the internet to make sure businesses weren't destroyed. As funny as that sounds (since China sensors everything) it seems to be partially true, when they also urged other nations to do the same. The evolution of technology and the destruction of old businesses is something people in power have always fought against.

US gov rights infringement:
The driver’s license is something the constitution says nothing about, and is distributed by the state. It does feel like my rights might have been pushed on with a DL but I’m ok with it since it’s doesn’t feel like it would have been by very much.

Corp rights infringement:
The cell phone was driven by corporations using old technology in a new way. Now anyone who wants to pay my provider, can track me, listen to my conversations, and read my emails (not that my gmail account didn't do that already). Do we need one in order to function? No. But it’s too cheap and handy to go with out.

Millions of people, like me, will gladly let our selves be monitored because it makes our lives easier. And we'll keep making that trade, until we have nothing left. Sure the government is the one who imprisons us, but it's the entrepreneur that runs or reinvents the prison.
Things like insurance, credit card debt, cell phones, and mortgages are examples of imprisonment, to free men who were hoping to use these tools to help them selves. Are they bad? Heck no! We love them. But how far will it go? What’s the future going to look like once we really get good at this? It will be unlike anything we've seen before. We'll be trapped but happy!...maybe.
/rant

[Dedman]

Things like insurance, credit card debt, cell phones, and mortgages are examples of imprisonment, to free men who were hoping to use these tools to help them selves.

All personal choices by the consumer. You don't need any of those things if you structure your life accordingly. I'm not saying it's easy, only that it's possible.

I maintain that corporations can only control, influence, imprison, what ever word you want to attach to it, you if you let them. The same can't be said of governments.

[Octopus]

If you're as stubborn as I am, Dedman, then this conversation will only be two people contradicting each other, every post. But I'm worried I'll bore you.

I read a book about how crazy the prison systems were when Fidel Castro took power in Cuba. Our government is much better but still has flaws which cause bad things to happen to good people. A government can force people into something. We've seen this before. (That’s what you’re saying) My point is, we aren’t exactly seeing the same thing today. We live in a globalized economy with so much investment we can't even go into depression. Information connects everyone anywhere instantly changing almost all business models at some level. (What I’m saying)

A company will always be selling, a solution. They'll even let you pay them money to pay off your debt.
Eh wha? Yup.
And there are so many examples out there to chose from, but that's not even what I care about. The whole point of this thread was to discuss a new realistic gov system that will evolve from this. Probably not something we’ve ever seen before. But we're still stuck on the debate if the USA is going to copy a different model from the past. Lets say for a second, it wont.

[Neo]

Is this different from the scared normal person (government out to get you) radio?

Seriously, tho, m8, from what I actually understand, kurrency is the reason we're in this mess!

This world is upside down; in our world, lies are truth, fallacy is praised, and men borne of conscience are silenced, ridiculed, or fall into a vortex sea of extreme obscurity. X_x

The shroud of the dahk side has fallen. lulz

[Octopus]

Is this different from the scared normal person (government out to get you) radio?

Seriously, tho, m8, from what I actually understand, kurrency is the reason we're in this mess!

This world is upside down; in our world, lies are truth, fallacy is praised, and men borne of conscience are silenced, ridiculed, or fall into a vortex sea of extreme obscurity. X_x

The shroud of the dahk side has fallen. lulz

And all I'm saying is, give in to the corporate monster. Let it eat you.

[Neo]

I lol'd

[Octopus]

phhh... i rofl'd. pwn

[Tunnelcat]

Octopus, I agree with you. Large multinational corporations have no soul, see profit as their religion and worship money as their God. They have no national pride or favoritism in any one country. They seek the greatest profit and the cheapest labor and compromise the quality of their product for that profit with cheap materials and could care less that they sell the customer something that will last, be made repairable and not fall apart in five seconds. In fact, if it falls apart quickly, even better to sell us more, planned obsolescence.

They have the money and the means to control our government through intensive lobbying to get what they want and since we lowly individuals haven't got that kind of cash to grease Congress' skids in our favor, we get very little say. Congress can be bought off very easily, it's part of Washington's status quo and both parties are permanently tainted, so we have no hope.