Day of Silence

[Kilarin]

Cope, you are a knight fighting for the honor of our lady Descent. An admirable cause! You inspire me.

I'm taking your admonition to heart, and just as soon as my wrist improves, I'm going back to practicing mouse/keyboard, and then back into descent mp!

Thank you!

[flip]

/me thinks Cope needs a beat down in some D1. Come get you some

[Tunnelcat]

Kilarin, thank you for answering my question about the Gospel of St. Thomas. I read it after I watched the movie 'Stigmata' and was curious as to why the Catholic Church thought it to be heresy. I know it's vastly different from the rest of the Gospels.

Back to the original intent of this post. Recently, two 11 year-old kids committed suicide over the extreme bullying that nobody in these schools seemed able to or cared enough to address.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/19233010/detail.html#-

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNe ... 091&page=1

[Sergeant Thorne]

You don't play descent. You just type.

I retired for the good of the community; I was killing the game two, three, and four pilots at a time, without breaking a sweat, while chatting and eating lunch... blindfolded. You have been spared. You're welcome.

I was too much for the game, and I finally realized it. When I played single-player on hardest the bots would accused me of hacking and leave. Had I continued the servers themselves would certainly have thrown in the towel, to the bewilderment of the server operators... just before the game itself quit on an unexplainably universal level.

Ask Behemoth, I know he'll vouch for me.

vouch
verb
1. To call into question a person's honesty or memory.
2. Synonime for face-palm. ( archaic )
3. To see through the contradictory veil of history to perceive the awesomeness that is Sergeant Thorne.

Were we talking about something?

[TheCope]

JFTR, my defense of homosexuality ends at promoting it as “normal” “acceptable” or anything else for that matter.

I simply believe people who are not breaking any laws, have a right to be left alone. And freedom from religious persecution. (both ways)

The most valid comment on your little BB.

[.eK.Warlord]

Gay people suck

[Pandora]

Can you **** idiots ever have a thread on this message board without bible quotes? It's like you are all living in some rural farm town.

I asked for it, so blame me, not Kilarin. Thanks Kilarin and others for shedding some light. Was away the last few days and just had time to skim. Will hopefully be able to read everything more closely tonight...

[AlphaDoG]

Longest day of silence ever?

Ya'll been pretty verbal about silence. I LOL!

[Neo]

haha

lol I got called a narcissist xD

[Behemoth]

psh thorne, who allowed you to retire?

i agree with anti-bullying message, just make it more than a cry for the gay day
no offense

[Dakatsu]

The main reason for it's focus on anti-LGBT bullying is to draw attention to anti-LGBT bullying alone. The reason it isn't tacked onto an anti-rascist bullying or something else day is because the message would be largely unheard. Not that I agree with the general concept, but giving them their own day gives them more attention, and they need it. There is very little anti-race or anti-religious bullying when compared to anti-gay bullying.

[Spidey]

There is very little anti-race or anti-religious bullying when compared to anti-gay bullying.

If you say so.

[Duper]

I was teased more throughout the entire time I was in school than most gay people their entire lives. Was it religious? not in the way you would label it no, but it was directly due to the WAY I lived my life which was due to my beliefs. I was raised in a Lutheran church and went to public schools. I didn't \"hang with the crowd\" or whatever they called it back then... long before \"chillin\".
I was teased and bullied for all sorts of things. None of them made much sense to me. The funny thing is, is that when I went through a period of \"trying to dish it out\" I got into more trouble than I care to remember. I don't buy it. Sorry.
No it's no fun, but once again, they are not the only ones. The whole \"Separate (because were special) but equal\" thing is a ruse.

[CUDA]

There is very little anti-race or anti-religious bullying when compared to anti-gay bullying.

If you say so.

Spidey, you need to remember Dak is still very young, he hasnt seen what life is really all about yet.

[Dakatsu]

There is very little anti-race or anti-religious bullying when compared to anti-gay bullying.

If you say so.

Spidey, you need to remember Dak is still very young, he hasnt seen what life is really all about yet.

Do you know what life is all about? Remember I am young, and I am currently attending a high school. I don't hear students walking around yelling "★■◆●ing niggers!", but I hear language along the lines of "faggots" and "that's gay". One of my friends was severely bullied in middle school, and the school barely gave a rat's ass about it. I don't see how you can claim that any race or religion has it anywhere worse than homosexuals and bisexuals, especially since few of you, except maybe Bee, probably have not spent time in a high school in years. If there is significant racism and religious bigotry in schools I can guarantee that there is much higher anti-gay bullying, and in schools nearly clear of racism and creed-based hatred there is more than likely anti-gay hatred.

Furthermore, what the hell does not knowing what "life is all about" have anything to do with this topic? Please, explain that to me, or was that a way of belittling my opinion without directly responding to my words? So what if I am young, does it mean I cannot make a logical argument?

[Duper]

i know gay people that say \"that's gay\" ...all the time.

In the 70's and before you heard \"★■◆●\" all the time... not that that made it ok. Trust me Dak, as harsh as it might sound, Cuda is right. We've all gone through growing up through school and got over being a teen. By the time you hit 25 you'll understand what we're talking about.

.. when I was 25, there wasn't much of an internet.

[Spidey]

I’m sorry Dak, I’m really sorry you are getting picked on, and I think it’s wrong.

I grew up in North Philly, a white kid growing up in a black neighborhood, I got picked on on a daily basis, picked on, jumped, beaten up, cursed at, told I was no good, stolen from…hell one day this guy even sicked his dog on me.

Right about now you are asking yourself, so what the ★■◆● is your point.

Well the point is this…we all see life thru our own prisms, you are not there when the fat kid is getting picked on…the fat kid is. And even if gay bashing is on the top of the list, that’s no excuse to leave out other groups.

[CUDA]

So what if I am young, does it mean I cannot make a logical argument?

Long story short. YES it does. Science has proven that your Brain has not fully developed and you are incapable of making logical decisions at your age, after around 21 that will start to change. its just the Facts.

Dak, it was not meant as a personal attack but looking back I see it ended up as one. My bad

[Grendel]

So what if I am young, does it mean I cannot make a logical argument?

Long story short. YES it does. Science has proven that your Brain has not fully developed and you are incapable of making logical decisions at your age, after around 21 that will start to change. its just the Facts.

Gee. If he can argue better than you w/ his not fully developt brains, your must be in the 50% of the population below the IQ average.. I know 14yr olds that have a clearer picture of life than many 50yr old "know it all" people.

[CUDA]

Scientific Fact Grendel I didn't make it up.
and I should have probably said rational instead of Logical

[Grendel]

Yea, right. A \"scientific fact\" about at what age people are rational . Anyway, w/o references your claim is worthless, care to point to some background ?

[Jeff250]

Cuda, you aren't going to find any studies that say that 17 year olds are \"incapable of making rational decisions\" because saying that is plain reckless. So let's consider the weaker claim that people who are 17 won't reach their intellectual peak until they are 21. Why are you so accepting of scientific evidence that people who are 17 won't reach their intellectual peak until they are 21 but so skeptical of scientific evidence that says that someone's sexual orientation is largely determined before they are 12? Besides, you don't want to know what the studies say starts to happen to your brain after you turn 40.

In any case, arguments like \"I'm right because I'm smarter than you\" quickly come back to bite whoever makes them in the arse.

[Pandora]

So what if I am young, does it mean I cannot make a logical argument?

Long story short. YES it does. Science has proven that your Brain has not fully developed and you are incapable of making logical decisions at your age, after around 21 that will start to change. its just the Facts.

As a brain scientist I am a bit baffled about this. Where did you get this from? It is true that the brain still matures and some processes are not fully fleshed out (i.e. impulse control) but that does not mean at all that adolescents are not capable of making logical decision.

[AlphaDoG]

Besides, you don't want to know what the studies say starts to happen to your brain after you turn 40.

I don't comprehend this statement. I'm PAST 40, where was I going with this?

[CUDA]

From the National Health Institute.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicat ... ndex.shtml

while this study says "probably" I have read others that said it was related, but I don't have time this morning to search from it. this was the first site that came up. google is my friend

While this work suggests a wave of brain white matter development that flows from front to back, animal, functional brain imaging and postmortem studies have suggested that gray matter maturation flows in the opposite direction, with the frontal lobes not fully maturing until young adulthood. To confirm this in living humans, the UCLA researchers compared MRI scans of young adults, 23-30, with those of teens, 12-16.4 They looked for signs of myelin, which would imply more mature, efficient connections, within gray matter. As expected, areas of the frontal lobe showed the largest differences between young adults and teens. This increased myelination in the adult frontal cortex likely relates to the maturation of cognitive processing and other "executive" functions.

Why are you so accepting of scientific evidence that people who are 17 won't reach their intellectual peak until they are 21

because its been proven

but so skeptical of scientific evidence that says that someone's sexual orientation is largely determined before they are 12?

because it hasn't been proven

Besides, you don't want to know what the studies say starts to happen to your brain after you turn 40. Wink

that's why we drink

[Kilarin]

As a brain scientist I am a bit baffled about this.

Ah, so the next time someone says, "It's not like it's brain surgery!" we'll know to leave you out of the discussion.

Anyway, mega cool, what area of brain science are you in, if you don't mind saying. (ok if you prefer not!)

because its been proven
...
because it hasn't been proven

We all have a tendency to accept the studies that agree with what we already believe, and to reject the studies that disagree with what we already believe.

One study seldom makes a proof, ESPECIALLY in the area of Biology. Biology is unbelievably complex and the exact nature of how the study was conducted can make a very big difference in what is found. I take all results in biology with a grain of salt until they have either been backed up with more studies (by different institutes) or I have had time to go into more depth on what it was they actually DID to get the results.

[Duper]

And we've been down THIS rabbit trail before. With the glut of info out there today, we choose what we will believe. This looks legit.

can a 17 y/o make a rational decision? of course. Does he/she/ understand the complexities of life. Not hardly. Does someone of this age more apt to react to a situation more strongly on an emotional level than someone a older (say 28) with out question. (there are many examples to support this claim that I don't have time to list)

[Spidey]

I’m not going to make any claims about “scientific fact” but there is one thing I know for a fact…I make better decisions now then I did when I was 18, and every day you live you are one day wiser then the day before…[/obvious]

Young people also tend to be emotional and idealistic, and as you age you temper this with wisdom and experience. (except for liberals )

[Pandora]

Anyway, mega cool, what area of brain science are you in, if you don't mind saying. (ok if you prefer not!)

Just quickly, I'm at work. I'm in Social Neuroscience. We're generally interested in how the brain figures out what others are doing, feeling, thinking, etc. The big idea that has brought this field forward is what is often called 'embodied views' of social cognition, with the idea being that humans are generally hardwired for empathy. The available data so far suggests that we automatically put ourselves into the shoes of others (even if we don't have to), with strongly overlapping brain areas being activated if we experience something ourselves and when we see others have the same experience. (i.e., Mirror neurons). So when we see something, the brain seems to run something like a subliminal 'simulation' of the other person's experience. This has been shown for performing actions, experiencing pain, being touched, feeling disgust, etc. My general interest is in how the brain does that, that is, how does it decode the visual input and map it onto our own sensory, affective and motor systems.

One study seldom makes a proof, ESPECIALLY in the area of Biology. Biology is unbelievably complex and the exact nature of how the study was conducted can make a very big difference in what is found. I take all results in biology with a grain of salt until they have either been backed up with more studies (by different institutes) or I have had time to go into more depth on what it was they actually DID to get the results.

very good advice!

[Pandora]

Cuda, your links says exactly what I have said above:

As expected, areas of the frontal lobe showed the largest differences between young adults and teens. This increased myelination in the adult frontal cortex likely relates to the maturation of cognitive processing and other \"executive\" functions.

Executive function refers exactly to stuff like impulse control, shielding yourself from distraction, terminating ongoing actions, switching between different tasks, and so on. It does NOT mean that teenagers can't make rational decisions. Also, the effects at this age compared to adults are relatively small compared to babies. As a teenager most of the development has already happened, so the difference between us and them is very small. But nobody discounts the huge effects of experience, of course.

[Bet51987]

..available data so far suggests that we automatically put ourselves into the shoes of others (even if we don't have to), with strongly overlapping brain areas being activated if we experience something ourselves and when we see others have the same experience. (i.e., Mirror neurons). So when we see something, the brain seems to run something like a subliminal 'simulation' of the other person's experience. This has been shown for performing actions, experiencing pain, being touched, feeling disgust, etc...

I've researched enough about mirror neurons to fill a small bookcase because it continues to be the absolute biggest problem of my life. So much so that I take prescription meds for it. I would appreciate any behind the scences information I can get.

Bee

[Pandora]

how so? Send me a pm if you want.

[CUDA]

It does NOT mean that teenagers can't make rational decisions.

cog⋅ni⋅tive   /ˈkɒgnɪtɪv/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kog-ni-tiv] Show IPA
–adjective

of or pertaining to the mental processes of perception, memory, judgment, and reasoning, as contrasted with emotional and volitional processes.

so it means EXACTLY that teenagers cannot make rational decisions. it seems you missed this part of the quote

likely relates to the maturation of cognitive processing

[Grendel]

It doesn't mean that at all -- \"likely relates to the maturation of cognitive processing\" means that full capacity isn't reached yet. That's a value relative to the subject, if the the base maturity is above average you can see an individual that has more mature cognitive functions than the majority of the population. Generalizing that teenagers can't make rational decisions from that is preposterous at best.

[flip]

Pandora wrote:
..available data so far suggests that we automatically put ourselves into the shoes of others (even if we don't have to), with strongly overlapping brain areas being activated if we experience something ourselves and when we see others have the same experience. (i.e., Mirror neurons). So when we see something, the brain seems to run something like a subliminal 'simulation' of the other person's experience. This has been shown for performing actions, experiencing pain, being touched, feeling disgust, etc...

Also known as empathy and compassion.

I will also add, if wisdom came with age, there wouldn't be so many dumb people over 50

[Kilarin]

so it means EXACTLY that teenagers cannot make rational decisions. it seems you missed this part of the quote

What the study says is that teenagers brains have not reached their peak yet. However, I know ten year old kids who make better and more rational decisions than 30 year olds. Two elements are at work here.

First: statistics. Mozart was no where near his peak musical talent at six years old, and yet, at six years old, he far outstripped ANYTHING I will ever be able to do. It's a curve, and if you happen to be further along on the curve, you can pass someone else long before you reach your peak.

Second: Choice. Reasoning isn't just about inborn ability. I've known people who were gifted with incredible brains, but simply chose not to use them. Brilliant fools. And I've known some people who were far from gifted, but they CHOSE to make the best decisions they could, and they did darn good jobs of it.

A very interesting study was covered in Scientific American recently that showed that kids who believed that intelligence was completely determined by genetics performed poorer in school than kids who believed that intelligence was determined, at least in part, by hard work.

With the brain, as with virtually everything, it's not just what you've got, it's how you use it.

[Duper]

LOL, nice Derail Cuda!

..or is that Disrail ? .... I forget.

[Dakatsu]

I’m sorry Dak, I’m really sorry you are getting picked on, and I think it’s wrong.

Actually I have not been picked on, no one thinks I'm anything but straight. I see it happen though, and I am afraid to say anything on account of being outcasted. I am in the IB program so I am much safer than many, but I am the quiet type with a good circle of friends but not too many, and I know that I'd lose my best friend.

Ironically, I used to get picked on in middle school, and I was often called faggot, and this was long before I knew about my own sexuality or that I necessarily accepted gays. It was mainly because I liked a certain girl, but a lot of other reasons too. I did say that they did pick on my friend was picked on as well for his sexuality.

By the way, sorry for the stuff you had to deal with in school, racism definitely still exists in areas dominated by one race. I still hold up the argument that there is more anti-gay bigotry, mainly because LGBT kids will be a rarity in every school, and rarely if at all a large portion or majority.

So what if I am young, does it mean I cannot make a logical argument?

Long story short. YES it does. Science has proven that your Brain has not fully developed and you are incapable of making logical decisions at your age, after around 21 that will start to change. its just the Facts.

Dak, it was not meant as a personal attack but looking back I see it ended up as one. My bad

Not your fault, I was being a jerk as well - my grandmother was rushed to the Emergency Room, and I had to help find the medications she was taking and stuff, and I was preoccupied. To make things worse, my teachers don't recognize that I was busy with this yesterday, and are bitching me out because I didn't study or do my homework (I was only home for 30 minutes). Bastards. Not a fun week.

My main complaint, is fine, lets say I am illogical due to my age, etc (I think my bipolar disorder causes more illogic than anything, although that I believe mainly deals with anger or love or sadness, and not debate), if someone else here would of argued it, lets say someone over 25, you could not of used that excuse. If no one is willing to side with me, thats fine, it may of been totally irrational, but if someone of a "logical" age agrees with me, I think that it would of needed an answer.

Sorry, I'd write a better response, but I was at the hospital again - she lost her pulse three times today. I need sleep, my teachers can go screw themselves and their homework.

[Behemoth]

Hope your grandmother gets better dak

[CUDA]

LOL, nice Derail Cuda!

..or is that Disrail ? .... I forget.

I learned it in Business school
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when I read about business school
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in a book.