D1 and D2 Mouse \"Paddling\" issue (again)

Scaler164 · Post by **Scaler164** » Fri May 01, 2009 7:36 pm

Hope you guys don't mind if I flog this old dead-horse topic again for a few minutes...

I just resurrected an old Gateway G5 233 PC I've had stored away for about 13 years (Win95 OS) with hopes that Descent 1 and 2 (and a few other old favorite games) would play better on it than they do on my newer PCs with Win98SE and WinXP. I have maxed out the memory for this old machine (a whopping total of 256 megs), I have added a Soundblaster 16 sound card... and have recently won (on ebay) a Nvidia TNT Riva 2 PCI video card to also go in the machine (not yet received). Also, I'm using a generic, PS2, 2-buton, wired \"wheel\" mouse.

BEFORE I did anything to the G5, both D1 and D2 played about as poorly on it as they did on the newer PCs... bad sound quality, very poor graphics (even for games this old) and required a HUGE amount of mouse \"paddling\" to turn the ships. Remember... its a WINDOWS 95 OS, which is where I understand the paddling problem began... right?

Anyway... AFTER the memory and sound card upgrade... the sound quality is (naturally) much better and the need for mouse \"paddling\" has definitely diminished... but the need for it is still there and quite obvious.

So, my first question is this... should I expect the TNT Riva II card to make any difference?

My next question is this... would a GAMING MOUSE make any difference?

And my last question is this... should I just go completely \"old-school,\" avoiding all the headaches by taking the drastic measure of formatting the hard drive and install DOS 6.22 OS on the system... which these games were made to run on in the first place?!? Although this route IS definitely an option, I'd rather not have to do this unless all else fails.

Thanx in advance.

Scaler164

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Fri May 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Well, if you are going to change out the OS I would actually try Windows 98 SE since it is pretty much the best version of Windows that still has native DOS support but also brings USB support to the table. A computer with those specs *should* be able to run the original D1/D2 fine from windows 95/98 though. There is no reason to load pure DOS on the system because Windows 95/98 can shut down to DOS mode and get 99% the same result as pure DOS.

As for the video card making a difference, I'd say its unlikely as the original D1 and D2 do not use 3d video acceleration since they came out before it was really on the market. But there is a chance that whatever VGA setup is in the system currently is lagging out the video, so something as fast as a TNT won't hurt.

I don't think a gaming mouse would make much difference (since I'm a joystick player myself), but one option you may want to investigate is turning up the default polling rate for the mouse if it is on PS/2. I believe the default is around 40 Hz on some systems and many mice work up to 120 or even 200 Hz which can considerably improve the responsiveness. If it is a serial mouse, don't even bother and switch to a PS/2 one, serial mice just can't reach the same polling rates. Otherwise if you load 98 SE you can try a decent USB mouse like a Logitech MX510/518 which should be fairly inexpensive.

One option you might not be aware of is the source code projects for D1 and D2 that make them run well even on modern systems in Windows Vista/XP. The easiest one to set up for beginners is DXX-Rebirth which can be found here: http://www.dxx-rebirth.com/

Scaler164 · Post by **Scaler164** » Fri May 01, 2009 11:14 pm

My tech level is a bit behind you folks, so I could use some pointers (help) with adjusting the polling rate for the mouse... how and where do I do that?

Believe it or not my Gateway G5, Win95 system actually has USB support; the machine has two USB ports on the back and the original OS disk that came with it says \"With USB Support\" on it. So I should he good to go with this system. And $10 at a local Wal*Mart can net me a optical USB mouse... $12 and some change netted me some Logitech speakers for the system earlier tonight. Guess Wal*Mart is good for something after all... ... ... ok, maybe not.

I was not aware of the D1 & 2 source code DXX projects... a million thanks for sharing that.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:20 am

Well, Windows 95 did have a service pack like release that was distinguished by having the 95b designation somewhere on the install disk which supported USB, but it was kind of a hack job and took till Windows 98 for the USB support to really be any good. But you don't have to format to swap up to 98 SE because the two are so similar you can just upgrade install to 98 SE preserving all your settings.

Way back in the day I think I used a utility called PS2rate which you can grab a version from here:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/OS- ... Rate.shtml

Scaler164 · Post by **Scaler164** » Sat May 02, 2009 4:05 pm

I downloaded and tried the PS2rate on the Win95 system... no effect speeding up the mouse, but it was able to slow it down. Go figure.

I have another operational computer with Win98SE on it so I won't need to upgrade the Win95 system to 98SE. The 98SE presently has a USB mouse, but I'll try using the old PS2 mouse on it later and see if D1 & 2 will run better on it than on the Win95 system. Will post results.

Scaler164 · Post by **Scaler164** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:47 pm

UPDATE : PS2Rate tested on both the Win95 and WIN98SE system... WITHOUT success. Both systems allowed the mouse to be slowed down, but no luck speeding it up. Tried it IN-GAME and ON-DESKTOP with same results.

This mouse came with either the Win95 system or the Win98 system... could it be too old to be affected by PS2Rate?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:04 pm

Hmmm... Its been so long since I've used that program I can't remember if there were any tricks to making it work. IIRC it might require a reboot to work and not all mice (especially older ones) can support full speed.

But if you can't get it working, I'd just say it isn't worth the time and trouble, spare yourself the aggravation and get a decent older model USB gaming mouse instead.

Also I can't remember if D1 or D2 had any extra mouse sensitivity adjustments beyond what is in the main menus, but I do believe it is also affected by the windows sensitivity setting, so cranking that up might get better results. You are aware that ships can only turn at a maximum fixed speed and not instantly like in most first person shooter games right?

Scaler164 · Post by **Scaler164** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:17 pm

Yeah, I know D1 & 2 are not like the other games... but I'm basing my observation on the way the D3 ship moves AND how I remember the ships responding when I used to use a joystick many years ago. (I was using a 4-button Gravis Analog Pro) (By the way, anyone got one of those that they want to part with?!? It was GREAT for other games like Star Wars Pod Racer, etc.) But seriously... the ships turned much better with that old 'stick than they do with the mouse.

Guess I'll have to get a USB gaming mouse and see if that helps. Since I'm still a bit behind the times, aren't there some gaming mouses that can be 'hopped up' in the performance department for such cases as this? And can you recommend a good one to try?

By the way... if you're still playing D1 & 2, what are you using to play them?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:46 pm

I still play some D1 SP from time to time, but its on my main system: Core 2 Duo E6600, 8800 GT 512 MB, 4 GB RAM, dual boot Windows XP Professional/Vista Home Premium and a sidewinder precision pro USB. Running D1X-Revolution obviously.

I wouldn't go for any of the modern gaming mice, I'd go for something a bit older like a MX512 or MX518 from logitech, its plenty fast enough for the job without breaking the bank like a modern one would. Although you could also go ahead and get something outlandish like a G5 or G9 and use it for all your gaming machines. I've been very satisfied with my logitech G7 cordless for gaming anyway.

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:13 pm

since when is VDM native DOS..... GUI over DOS ended with W3.1 after that it's a CLI under VDM/NTVDM and not a full product(WinXP64/Vista64/Server2003 NTVDM is gone).