Most influential emotion in human history?

[Spaceboy]

I would say passion. Passion drives people to produce and create, it is a major source of motivation. Much of our art and technology has been a product of someone's passion.

[Spidey]

Hate

[CUDA]

Lust

[AlphaDoG]

Jealousy

[Stroodles]

For society? Passion

For the lines of the nations, the way the rise and fall? The other 3.

[Bet51987]

Fear

[Zantor]

Greed and passion. I agree with Spaceboy's statements on passion.

Greed is an opposite of sorts. Greed is selfish, not selfless, and has led to some very infamous schemes and conspiracies--confirmed and unconfirmed--in human history.

[Gooberman]

I'd go with fear as well.

[ccb056]

Greed

[Will Robinson]

Love.
Almost every child ever born that learned how to be passionate or full of hate, etc. etc. learned it from a parent who taught them to be that way out of the parents love of the child....

[Behemoth]

Greed

Absolutely right.
Greed has influenced more people on a massive scale than anything that i can think of.

[TechPro]

Love.
Almost every child ever born that learned how to be passionate or full of hate, etc. etc. learned it from a parent who taught them to be that way out of the parents love of the child....

Greed

Absolutely right.
Greed has influenced more people on a massive scale than anything that i can think of.

I gotta agree with Will, and disagree with Behemoth. Yes, Greed does in fact influence nearly everything ... but greed is a form of Love, specifically love of things, stuff, belongings, possesions, you name it.

Since Love influences us before we can even sit up, and influences in perhaps all matters of life (for good or for evil ... yeah, sounds corny) all the way to death ... I gotta say Love in the most influential emotion.

[Spaceboy]

Techpro

Yes, and Love is Passion.

[Isaac]

Hunger

[Grendel]

Any.

[Duper]

Techpro

Yes, and Love is Passion.

can be love; not love exclusively. Passion can be used to describe anything a person does with zeal. Heck, you can be a passionate golf player. ..er.. like Tiger Woods.

I will side with Cuda on this one. Lust.

Lust, like passion or in the same way that Tech described is anything you desire to point of wanting to take it.

Love gives, it doesn't take.

[Will Robinson]

...Love gives, it doesn't take.

My love of my children gives me the motive to take away a lot of things from others if I'm forced to choose.

Harry Truman took away a lot of lives in Hiroshima and Nagasaki for the love of his country (specifically the American troops he would have otherwise been condemning to death in a protracted battle with Japan)....

[Bet51987]

...Love gives, it doesn't take.

My love of my children gives me the motive to take away a lot of things from others if I'm forced to choose.

Harry Truman took away a lot of lives in Hiroshima and Nagasaki for the love of his country (specifically the American troops he would have otherwise been condemning to death in a protracted battle with Japan)....

Harry Truman was a disgusting war criminal who murdered more than 200,000 men, women, and children. He left a mark against this country that I will always be ashamed of. Sorry for the hijack, but it wasn't done out of love.

Bee

[TechPro]

Hmmm... His choices were to 1) Drop the bomb and kill a great many people all at once, knowing full well what a terrible thing that would be, or ... 2) Continue to battle the war according to \"traditional\" methods that would most likely have dragged out for quite some time more and killed a great many more people than choice one would have.

IMHO, If that was his only two choices, it would have been much more reprehensible to have continued with choice 2, even though it was a very terrible choice and deed. ... because it probably saved the lives of many more by ending the war decisively and far sooner.

Either way, Bet, you have neither enough info or understanding of what was happening at that time and what matters he was confronted with to even begin to judge him. You have no idea of how that choice may (or may not) have weighed on him, and our recorded history will never be able to tell you.

Save your venom for matters where you do (and can) have sufficient right to judge the choices made by others.

[Duper]

And Bet, you're talking about a country who's leaders were willing to throw all those \"men, women, and children\" in our path as long as they thought they had a chance. (and did so) We literally had to demoralize them and show their leaders there was NO WAY they could win. And if you go back and read the accounts, you'll find that Truman didn't exactly giggle himself to sleep after those events.

And if you want to talk about atrocities, let's discuss what the Japanese soldiers did to the Chinese and our POW's. Those were REAL war crimes. Some cases made Hilter's Holocaust look like a mercy session.

[TechPro]

Laggy server not letting me edit ...
Second paragraph should read (for better clarity)

IMHO, If that was his only two choices, it would have been much more reprehensible to have continued with choice 2, even though choice 1 was a very terrible choice and deed. ... because choice 1 probably saved the lives of many more by ending the war decisively and far sooner.

[Bet51987]

In school I had a problem understanding how a nation like ours could ever do such a thing so I began digging a little deeper than most kids in my class. I wanted to find some kind of acceptable reason that would allow me to feel differently than the disgust I was feeling for my country but the more I researched, the more disgusted I became until I literally began to loathe Truman.

I can't recall everything I read but at the time leading up to the bombings it was well known by the entire allied command structure that Japan's military and industry was about finished. Their homeland was surrounded, no planes were flying, and no ships were allowed in or out. They were pretty much isolated from the rest of world.

I know what the japanese did to other people but what Truman did was far more heinous. He murdered innocent children on the way to school, teenagers waiting for a bus, moms feeding babies, grandparents, hospitals, schools, and countless thousands who had no interest in war. Worse, was the fact that when the destruction was known, Truman did it again in Nagasaki.


There could have been many ways to show the Japanese the power of the atom and hydrogen bombs and what destruction it could deliver. They just didn't want to use them and although this part can never be admitted, there is no doubt in my mind that the Truman administration realized as the war was dying down that it would be the last chance to test an atom bomb on a real target.

Bee

[Will Robinson]

...
Harry Truman was a disgusting war criminal who murdered more than 200,000 men, women, and children. He left a mark against this country that I will always be ashamed of. Sorry for the hijack, but it wasn't done out of love.

Bee

I guess this is the part where you tell me he did it for the oil.... or Cheney's father was working for Haliburton and needed the reconstruction contract work in Japan....

If there is a god I'd say his love has had an awfully big and influential impact on the world, and even if he isn't real all those who believe and live for his love are still a factor.

But god aside, the one thing every human has in common whether rich or poor, sane or crazy, greedy or satisfied, etc. etc. is love and what they do for it, in the name of it, what they do to find it, to keep it, to hide from it, out of shame for not having it, to try and bring it to those they think don't have it, what they do to compensate for their perceived lack of it....it goes on and on. And the love every parent has for their children has been a motivating factor for countless acts since the beginning of the human race...hell even some animals exhibit what seems to be love!

Not all of the results of love is big stuff, some of it is small but it is so widespread, it is literally in every person around the world and they have all felt the influence of love and most feel it daily for the total duration of their lives.
Love is like water, it isn't always a tidal wave or flood kind of thing but it is the essence of life.

[CUDA]

In school I had a problem understanding how a nation like ours could ever do such a thing so I began digging a little deeper than most kids in my class. I wanted to find some kind of acceptable reason that would allow me to feel differently than the disgust I was feeling for my country but the more I researched, the more disgusted I became until I literally began to loathe Truman.

I can't recall everything I read but at the time leading up to the bombings it was well known by the entire allied command structure that Japan's military and industry was about finished. Their homeland was surrounded, no planes were flying, and no ships were allowed in or out. They were pretty much isolated from the rest of world.

I know what the japanese did to other people but what Truman did was far more heinous. He murdered innocent children on the way to school, teenagers waiting for a bus, moms feeding babies, grandparents, hospitals, schools, and countless thousands who had no interest in war. Worse, was the fact that when the destruction was known, Truman did it again in Nagasaki.


There could have been many ways to show the Japanese the power of the atom and hydrogen bombs and what destruction it could deliver. They just didn't want to use them and although this part can never be admitted, there is no doubt in my mind that the Truman administration realized as the war was dying down that it would be the last chance to test an atom bomb on a real target.

Bee

you have NO knowledge of what was planned by the Japanese for the end of WW2, you need to stop reading your revisionist history books. this is part of what Harry Truman faced when he decided to drop the Bomb on Japan. maybe you should read up on how the Japanese fought on Island like Tarawa, Saipan, Okinawa, and Iwo Jima. on Iwo out of the 22,000 Japanese defenders less that 2000 survived. they fought to the proverbial last man.

http://ussslcca25.com/jaekel03.htm

This article was written by USS SLC WWII Veteran H. H. Jaekel in 1996 to the University on behalf of his granddaughter when he found out what a text book she was using said about the dropping of the atomic bomb.

The end of World War II, described by most of our Educational institutions and the Media, especially during 50th anniversary year, centers around the use of the Atomic Bomb. They fail to remember what happened at Pearl Harbor December 7, 1941, (that started the whole thing in the first place), the Bataan Death March, the Japanese Hell Ship (where 1800 American Prisoners prayed to die and all but 8 got their wish), the Rape of Nanking, plus many other deceitful acts and atrocities not mentioned in this article.

They failed to look at the planned invasion of the Japanese mainland and the enormous cost in human lives on both sides that would have occurred.

They failed to include the planned invasion, that became unnecessary after the A-bombs were dropped on Hiroshima, August 6, 1945 and Nagasaki, August 9, 1945, plus the acceptance of Allied Surrender Terms, August 14, 1945.

All of the above events and many other facts must also be included in the history books and be part of the equation.

This is what happened after the Japanese surrender, 14th of August, 1945 and what could have happened.

Deep in the National Archives hidden for decades, lie thousands of pages of dusty yellowing documents stamped "TOP SECRET". These documents, now declassified, are the plans for Operation Downfall, the invasion of the Japanese Homeland during World War II. Only a few Americans in 1945 were aware of the elaborate plans that had been prepared for the Allied Invasion of the Japanese Homeland. Even fewer today are aware of the defense the Japanese had prepared to counter the invasion had it occurred.

"Japan, loser of the Pacific War, still had plenty of deadly weapons to defend its homeland against invasion. Any invasion attempt would have been Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa and all the other bloody Pacific battles wrapped into one."

The demolition teams started to neutralize Japanese defenses, August 28, 1945, in Tokyo Bay and on mainland Japan, prior to the formal surrender aboard the USS Missouri , September 2, 1945. After the initial "demilitarization" of ships in Tokyo Bay was completed, IE: (destroying ammunition, dismantling guns and throwing the breeches overboard), the teams moved inland. There they blew up fleets of suicide boats moored all along the coast, exploded torpedoes, disabled or destroyed two man "suicide" submarines. In caves that honeycomb the coastline, the big coastal defense guns were blown up.

"Weapons guarding the Japanese homeland were insidiously camouflaged." Gun emplacements were buried in craggy hillsides. Their ammunition supplies moved through a series of underground tunnels on tiny railroads they could have never be seen by invaders from the sea or air. Huge caves had been hollowed out in the hills along the coast. These were crammed with heavy armaments, torpedoes, small suicide submarines, mines and all manner of explosive devices.

The Invasion of Japan, OPERATION DOWNFALL, called for two massive military undertakings to be carried out in succession and aimed at the heart of the Japanese Empire.

In the first invasion, (code named OPERATION OLYMPIC), combat troops would land on Japan by amphibious assault during the early morning hours of November 1, 1945. Fourteen combat divisions of soldiers and Marines would land on heavily fortified and defended Kyushu, the southernmost of the Japanese home islands, after an unprecedented naval and air bombardment.

The second invasion on March 1, 1946, (code named OPERATION CORONET), would send 22 combat divisions against one million Japanese defenders of the main island of Honshu. Its goal: the unconditional surrender of Japan.

OPERATION DOWNFALL was to be a strictly American operation, except for a part of the British Pacific Fleet. It called for using the entire Marine Corps, the entire Pacific Navy, elements of the Seventh Army Air Force, the Eighth Air Force (recently re-deployed from Europe), The 20th Air Force and the American Far Eastern Air Force.

More than 1.5 million combat troops, with 3 million more in support, ( more than 40 per cent of all servicemen still in uniform in 1945), would be directly involved in two amphibious assaults.

Casualties were expected to be extremely heavy. Admiral William Leahy estimated more than 250,00 killed or wounded on Kyushu alone. General Charles Willoughby, Chief of Intelligence for General Douglas MacArthur, estimated American casualties from the entire operation would be one million men by the fall of 1946. This was considered, by many, to be a very conservative estimate.

A naval blockade and strategic bombing of Japan was considered, most everyone agreed that they would choke and destroy cities, but leave whole armies intact.

After extensive deliberation, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, issued a top secret directive May 25, 1945, to proceed with the invasion of Kyushu, the southernmost island of Japan. The target date was set for after the typhoon season. Two days later the United States issued a Potsdam Proclamation which called upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or face total destruction.

Three days later, the Japanese government news agency broadcast to the world, Japan would ignore the proclamation and would refuse to surrender.

During this same period it was learned from monitoring Japanese radio broadcasts, that they were closing all schools, mobilizing the schoolchildren, arming the civilian population, fortifying caves and constructing underground defenses.

OPERATION OLYMPIC called for a four pronged assault on Kyushu. Its objective was to seize and control the southern one-third of that island and establish naval and air bases, tighten the naval blockade of the home islands, destroy units of the main Japanese army and support the later invasion of the Tokyo plain.

The preliminary invasion would begin October 27, 1945, when the 40th Infantry Division would land on a series of small islands west and southwest of Kyushu. At the same time the 158th Regimental Combat Team would land and occupy a small island 28 miles south of Kyushu. On these islands, seaplane bases would be established, radar stations set up to provide advance warning to the invasion fleet, direct carrier base aircraft and provide an emergency anchorage for the invasion fleet, should things not go well on the day of invasion of Kyushu.

As the invasion grew imminent, the massive power of the Third and Fifth fleets would approach Japan, The Third Fleet, under Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, would provide strategic support for operation against Honshu and Hokkaido.

Halsey's fleet would be composed of battleships, heavy cruisers, destroyers, dozens of support ships and three fast carrier groups. Hundreds of Navy fighters, dive bombers and torpedo planes would hit targets all over the island of Honshu.

The 3000 ship Fifth Fleet, under Admiral Spruance, would carry the invasion troops. Several days before the invasion, the battleships, heavy cruisers and destroyers would pour thousands of tons of high explosives into the target areas. They would not cease the bombardment until after the landing forces had launched. The invasion would begin in the early morning hours of November 1,1945. Thousands of soldiers and Marines would pour ashore on beaches all along the eastern, southern and western coasts of Kyushu.

Waves of aircraft from 66 carriers would bomb, rocket and strafe enemy defenses, gun and troop concentrations along the beaches. The Eastern Assault Force, consisting of the 25th, 33rd and 41st infantry divisions, would land near Miyaski, at beaches called Austin, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler and Cord, move inland and attempt to capture the city and its nearby airfield.

The Southern Force, consisting of the First Cavalry, 43rd and Ameri-Cal divisions, would land at beaches labeled DeSoto, Dusenburg, Essex, Ford and Franklin and attempt to capture Shibushi and the city of Kanoya and its airfield.

On the western shore of Kyushu, at beaches Pontiac, Reo, Rolls Royce, Saxon, Star, Studebaker, Stutz and Zepher the 5th Amphibious Corps would land the Second, Third and Fifth Marine divisions, sending half of its force inland to Sendai and the other half to the port city of Kagoshima.

On November 4,1945 the 81st, 98th, and 11th Airborne Divisions would feign an attack off the island of Shikoku then land near Kaimondake, (if not needed elsewhere), near the southernmost tip of Kagoshima Bay at beaches designated Locomobile, Lincoln, LaSalle, Hupmobile, Moon, Mercedes, Maxwell, Overland, Oldsmobile, Packard and Plymouth.

Operation Olympic was not just a plan for invasion, but for conquest and occupation as well. It was expected to take four months to achieve its objective, with three fresh divisions per month to be landed to support the operation if needed.

If all went well with Operation Olympic, Operation Cornet would be launched March 1, 1946. Operation Cornet would be twice the size of Olympic, with as many as 28 divisions landing on Honshu. All along the coast near Tokyo, the American First Army would land the 5th, 7th, 27th, 44th, 86th, and 96th Infantry Divisions along with the 1st, 4th, and 6th Marine Divisions.

At Sagami Bay, just south of Tokyo, the entire 8th and 10th armies would strike north and east to clear the long western shore of Tokyo Bay, then attempt to go as far as Yokohama. The assault troops landing south of Tokyo would be the 4th, 6th, 8th, 24th, 31st, 32nd and 87th Infantry Divisions along with the 13th and 20th Armored divisions.

Following the assault eight more divisions, the 2nd, 28th, 35th, 91st, 95th, 97th, and 104th Infantry divisions and the 11th Airborne Division, would be landed. If additional troops were needed as expected, other divisions re-deployed from Europe and undergoing training in the United States would be shipped to Japan in what was hoped to be the final push.

The Japanese defense was expected to be even more fierce than any encountered thus far in the war. Schools had been closed and the entire civilian population mobilized. The Shinto cult or religion was the national religion of Japan and the people had been taught to follow the Imperial Cult without question. Self sacrifice was extolled as the highest virtue and any order from the Emperor, the military, the government or at school must be followed without question.

Captured documents and postwar interrogation of Japanese military leaders disclosed that information concerning the number of Japanese planes available for the defense of the home islands were dangerously in error. During the sea battle at Okinawa alone, Japanese Kamikaze aircraft sank 32 Allied ships and damaged more than 400 others.

During the summer of 1945, American top brass concluded that the Japanese had spent their air force since American bombers and fighters daily flew unmolested over Japan. What military leaders did not know was that by the end of July, the Japanese had been saving all aircraft, fuel and pilots in reserve, and had been feverishly building new planes for the decisive battles defending their homeland.

As part of the Ketsu-go, the name of the plan to defend Japan, the Japanese were building 20 suicide take-off airstrips in southern Kyushu with underground hangars. They also had camouflaged airfields and nine seaplane bases.

On the night before the expected invasion, 50 Japanese seaplane bombers and 150 kamikaze planes were to be launched in a suicide attack on the fleet. The Japanese also had 58 more airfields in Korea, western Honshu and Shikoku, which were also to be used for massive suicide attacks.

Allied intelligence had established that the Japanese had no more than 2500 aircraft of which they guessed 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks. In August 1945, however; unknown to Allied Intelligence, the Japanese still had 5,651 army and 7,074 navy aircraft, for a total of 12,725 planes of all types.

Every village had some kind of aircraft manufacturing activity hidden in mines, railway tunnels, under viaducts and in basements of department stores, working to construct new planes. In addition they were building newer and more effective models of the Okka, a rocket propelled bomb, like the German V-1, but flown by a suicide pilot.

When the invasion became imminent, ketsu-Go called for a four fold aerial plan of attack to destroy up to 800 Allied ships. While Allied ships were approaching Japan, but still in the open seas, an initial force of 2,000 army and navy fighters were to fight to the death to control the skies over Kyushu.

A second force of 350 Japanese navy pilots were to attack the main body of the Allied task force to keep it from using its fire support and air cover from protecting the troop carrying transports. While these forces engaged a third force of 825 suicide planes was to hit the American transports. As the invasion convoys approached the beaches, another 2,000 suicide planes were to be launched in waves of 200 to 300, to be used in hour by hour attacks.

American troops would be arriving in about 180 lightly armed transports and 70 cargo vessels. By mid-morning of the first day of the invasion, most of the land based aircraft would be forced to return to their bases, leaving the defense to the carrier pilots and shipboard gunners. Carrier pilots, crippled by fatigue, would have to land time and time again to rearm and refuel. Guns would malfunction from the heat of continuous firing and ammunition would become scarce. Gun crews would be exhausted by nightfall, but still waves of kamikaze would continue. With the invasion fleet hovering off the beaches, all remaining aircraft would be committed to non-stop suicide attacks, which the Japanese hoped could be sustained for 10 days.

The Japanese planned to coordinate their attacks from 40 remaining submarines. Some would be armed with long lance torpedoes with a range of 20 miles to attack the invasion fleet 180 miles of Kyushu.

The Imperial Navy had 23 destroyers and two cruisers operational. They would be used to counterattack the American invasion fleet. A number of destroyers were to be beached at the last minute to be used as anti invasion gun platforms.

Once offshore, the invasion fleet would be forced to defend not only against the attacks from the air, but would also be confronted with suicide attacks from sea.

Once the troops were on the beaches, they would face suicide attacks from large numbers of armed civilian and army units, all for the Emperor and their homeland. As American troops advanced inland, booby traps, mine fields, and well hidden defenses would make every foot of the way a bloody battle. Casualties on both sides would be extremely heavy but the suicidal attacks and the lightly armed civilians would be cut down in large numbers by the heavily armed and well trained American units.

Harry Truman said in defense of, WHY I DROPPED THE ATOMIC BOMB. "It was a question of saving hundreds of thousands of American lives. You don't feel normal when you have to plan hundreds of thousands of deaths of American boys who are alive and joking and having fun while your doing your planning. You break your heart and your head trying to figure out a way to save one life.

I made the only decision I knew how to make. I did what I thought was right. I still think that".

September 3, 1996
"SO DO I HARRY"
A Pearl Harbor Survivor

also try reading this. it give an indepth detail of Japans defense plans for the main Island.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/ ... 1/ch13.htm

basic strength of 30 line-combat divisions, 24 coastal-combat divisions, and 23 independent mixed brigades, 2 armored divisions, 7 tank brigades, and 3 infantry brigades.

that's 54 divisions + there are as many as 30,000 men in a division. that's 1.5 MILLION + soldiers ready to fight and to die to the last man.

this is truly amazing you know even less about WW2 history that you do about politics

[fliptw]

Harry Truman is the text book definition of \"damned if you do, damned if you don't\".

[AlphaDoG]

Sorry for the hijack, but it wasn't done out of love.

Bee

I'll bet that's right!

[Spidey]

Yea, I’d have to go with Anger, for the bomb droppings. Love is very influential in the matters of interpersonal affairs, but as far as the course of history…nah.

[Isaac]

Not fear or anything.

[Pandora]

I'm not sure that \"passion\" is an emotion as such. Does it not encompass everything we do, as long as it is driven by powerful other emotions (i.e. love, fear, etc.)?

And I am surprised that Power has not been mentioned, although it might be an emotion in its own right as well (but the same goes for greed, as well, of course).

[CUDA]

I'm not sure that "passion" is an emotion as such. Does it not encompass everything we do, as long as it is driven by powerful other emotions (i.e. love, fear, etc.)?

And I am surprised that Power has not been mentioned, although it might be an emotion in its own right as well (but the same goes for greed, as well, of course).

I tend to agree with you about Passion Pandora. I'm not sure its an emotion as such. when you Love something you can be passionate about it. same with Hate. I think Passion is a result of the emotion
I'm not sure power rates either. power is something that people usually lust or crave after. its the desire for power thats the emotion not the power it self.

[Pandora]

I agree, Cuda. There was a \"not\" missing in my last sentence.
It should have read:

And I am surprised that Power has not been mentioned, although it might NOT be an emotion in its own right as well (but the same goes for greed, as well, of course).

[Bet51987]

...this is truly amazing you know even less about WW2 history that you do about politics

Really Cuda, you haven't a clue.

Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe, General Eisenhower advised President Truman on Jul 20, 1945, that "The atomic bombs were not necessary to end the war against Japan. It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

FLEET ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY "The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons"




I didn't just make up what I said previously. I did a lot of bookwork because I wanted to find the real reason as to why it was so neccessary to drop those bombs. Believe me, the political element for dropping the atom bomb far outweighed their war ending usefullness.

But believe what you want. I agree with the commanders in charge. Truman was a despicable human being.

Bettina

[Spidey]

The bombs…

Fact:
They were another weapon to use.
They were used and ended the war.

Opinion:
It was murder.
It was not murder.
They were unnecessary.
They were needed.

My opinion:
I don’t believe for one microsecond that the Japanese were ready to surrender.

[Foil]

[Request @ Admin: Can we get the Hiroshima/Nagasaki topic split into its own thread?]

While I don't agree with Bet's assessment about Truman's motives, I agree with some of what she said.

It's interesting, I never had a problem with the standard \"the atomic bombs saved more lives than they took\" argument, until one of my favorite Physics professors (who staunchly defended it) brought it up in a course on technology.

I did some research on the topic, fully expecting to find information which overwhelmingly supported the use of Fat Man and Little Boy... but that's not really what I found.

When I looked into it, I was struck by a number of things, primarily:

• The level of speculation about the future direction the Pacific war would take. I'm sorry, but the 'projected loss' numbers being thrown around are really shaky at best.
  Military records and quotes from decision-makers on both sides paint an even murkier picture of what 'might have been'. There just are too many variables for an accurate model; we don't know whether it cost more lives or less.
  Personally, I find it ridiculous that this decision was based on (and is now defended by) such questionable data.
• The way the decision was agonized over. Truman, and most of the others who made the decision, are far from the callous 'monsters' that some see. Those men thought they were making the right decision; they saw it as necessary evil.
  One of the most intriguing people I recall studying was Robert Oppenheimer (one of the Manhattan Project top physicists); his life and mental state after the war is quite a study.
• The lack of serious consideration for other alternatives. Other targets and other methods were momentarily considered, but were almost immediately tossed aside in favor of the most powerful harm (e.g. civilian targets). This is the one which still leaves me shaking my head.

[snoopy]

I'd have to vote for greed, too, followed by fear.

[CUDA]

...this is truly amazing you know even less about WW2 history that you do about politics

Really Cuda, you haven't a clue.

Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe, General Eisenhower advised President Truman on Jul 20, 1945, that "The atomic bombs were not necessary to end the war against Japan. It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

FLEET ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY "The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons"




I didn't just make up what I said previously. I did a lot of bookwork because I wanted to find the real reason as to why it was so neccessary to drop those bombs. Believe me, the political element for dropping the atom bomb far outweighed their war ending usefullness.

But believe what you want. I agree with the commanders in charge. Truman was a despicable.

Bettina

apparently you didnt do enough research. I've been studying WW2 history since 1976 I know what I'm talking about. I've studied not just the American history of the events I've also studied the Japanese, German, and Russian sides of WW2 and am currently studying the Finnish side of it.

if your going to quote a man, at least quote one that fought the japanese

"Before we're through with 'em, the Japanese language will only be spoken in hell."

"Kill Japs, Kill Japs, Kill More Japs!" The more of the little yellow bastards you kill, the quicker we go home

the FACTS are that the estimates that Japan was without a viable military were proven to be WRONG after the war was over.

no planes were flying, and no ships were allowed in or out

Captured documents and postwar interrogation of Japanese military leaders disclosed that information concerning the number of Japanese planes available for the defense of the home islands were dangerously in error. During the sea battle at Okinawa alone, Japanese Kamikaze aircraft sank 32 Allied ships and damaged more than 400 others

Allied intelligence had established that the Japanese had no more than 2500 aircraft of which they guessed 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks. In August 1945, however; unknown to Allied Intelligence, the Japanese still had 5,651 army and 7,074 navy aircraft, for a total of 12,725 planes of all types

Every village had some kind of aircraft manufacturing activity hidden in mines, railway tunnels, under viaducts and in basements of department stores, working to construct new planes. In addition they were building newer and more effective models of the Okka, a rocket propelled bomb, like the German V-1, but flown by a suicide pilot.

wow thats a whole lot of no planes were flying,

FYI did you know that shortly after the Bombs were dropped and before the war was over there was an attempted coup by the Japanese military on the Emperor. they were going to kidnap him and order the military and its citizens to follow the Shinto code of honor and fight to the last man. it just barely failed. and it was ONLY by an error by the coup leader that it didnt.
you wish to short sightedly base you distain for Truman on the fact that he killed children with the Bomb.

[quote="Historical "FACT"]During this same period it was learned from monitoring Japanese radio broadcasts, that they were closing all schools, mobilizing the schoolchildren, arming the civilian population, fortifying caves and constructing underground defenses[/quote]

The Japanese defense was expected to be even more fierce than any encountered thus far in the war. Schools had been closed and the entire civilian population mobilized. The Shinto cult or religion was the national religion of Japan and the people had been taught to follow the Imperial Cult without question. Self sacrifice was extolled as the highest virtue and any order from the Emperor, the military, the government or at school must be followed without question

wow it seems the Japanese were going to send their School children to war to fight the American Invasion. I wonder how many of them didnt die because the bomb was dropped. but I guess you dont care about that, it seems you only want to hate what America does and ignore Historical facts.

[Duper]

... and all THIS, Folks, has been brought to you by \"Passion\"...



(a split would be great)

[CUDA]

YEP, I LOVE history, and I have a LUST for the truth. not to mention the fact that I HATE willfull ignorance, and get ANGRY when someone willingly ignores History and facts, and it Makes me SAD to see the blatant disrespect for history and what it represents. but I am HAPPY to point out their errors.

[Duper]

Don't think that we got away from the bombing of those 2 cities \"scott free\".

We were there for YEARS like we were Vulcans or something, rebuilding and helping them get restarted after the war. Also, most of our guys that went in immediately after the bombing to help them died horrible deaths as a result from excessive radiation exposure. My wife and I took care of one man that was apart of that clean up effort. Years later, his bone marrow dead and his bones began to collapse. He lived the last month of his life screaming at the top of his lungs in agony from bone fragments piercing his spinal column. The couldn't give him enough morphine to stop the pain. He also suffered from Parkinson's. He was 19 when he went in, and wanting nothing more than to serve his country. (remember? that was a noble thing once apon a time)

War is never a \"good\" thing, but often is IS necessary. In this case, we were finishing something we didn't start and for the first couple of years, resisted getting involved in. You think that dropping the only 2 bombs we had was bad? Look into the kind of damage and horror that was created by the fire bombing we did. That, by FAR, was worse. ... most folks forget about that. We killed more and did more property damage to civilian and industrial quarters than the bombs did together.

(Cuda, weren't they H-Bombs?)

Back then killing civilians wasn't preferred, but it wasn't the taboo it's become since the media went \"Commy\" back in the 60's and criminalized Nam. The culture was different as was the people's view of war.

[CUDA]

no the Hydrogen bomb was first detonated in Nov 1952