Most influential emotion in human history?

[CUDA]

the question is not about the surrender of Japan, but about the unconditional surrender, as was called for by the allies in the Potsdam conference. they wanted to make sure that Japan could not continue to wage war.

I know someone else mentioned this earlier

[Behemoth]

And that's why we shouldn't condemn acts that happened over 50 years ago, foil.
We CAN however talk about the situation and matters that lead up to a balanced decision of whether or not to end human lives.
to me ending a life one way is the same as any other, and if they didn't even surrender after the first bomb was dropped, that just shows me the determination they had that would've dragged this out for a longer period of time, that's pretty good evidence for me.

[Spidey]

Well….most historians including the ones with Bee’s perspective all agree it probably would have come down to an invasion to force capitulation.

[Spaceboy]

We just don't know, with any level of accuracy.

You missed my point. I was speaking from the 1940's time frame.

In retrospect you can argue whether it was right or wrong all you want which is what you're saying, I agree,

...but from Truman's point of view in the 1940s, those were the options presented to him.

[Foil]

We CAN however talk about the situation and matters that lead up to a balanced decision of whether or not to end human lives.

Agreed.

to me ending a life one way is the same as any other

Okay, but the method is not the only thing to be considered here. We also have to consider:

- Civilian/soldier status. The decision was made to targeting civilians because it would cause "maximum psychological impact". Is this ethically equivalent to killing soldiers with conventional weapons?

- After-impact (e.g. the levels of radiation in the areas after detonation). Duper mentioned taking care of a radiation victim (one of ours!) a page or so back. The radiation levels fell relatively quickly, but the effects on people there are still being seen.

...they didn't even surrender after the first bomb was dropped, that just shows me the determination they had that would've dragged this out for a longer period of time, that's pretty good evidence for me.

I'm not so sure about that one, simply because it's unclear whether the Japanese leadership really believed the U.S. could duplicate that kind of power. There was some serious skepticism in their ranks about it.

[CUDA]

The Potsdam Proclamation

On the evening of July 26, 1945 in San Francisco (which in Tokyo was the morning of July 27) a message from the Allies now commonly known as the Potsdam Proclamation was broadcast in Japanese. The broadcast was relayed to the Japanese government on the morning of the 27th (Pacific War Research Society, The Day Man Lost, pg. 211-212).

The proclamation demanded \"the unconditional surrender of all the Japanese armed forces\" (U.S. Dept. of State, Foreign Relations of the U.S., The Conference of Berlin (Potsdam), vol. 2, pg. 1474-1476). It made no mention of Japan's central surrender consideration: the retention of the Emperor's position (JDTS, pg. 138-139). What made this crucial was that the Japanese believed the Emperor to be a God, the heart of the Japanese people and culture (Pacific War Research Society, Japan's Longest Day, pg. 20). But the proclamation made statements that, to the Japanese, could appear threatening to the Emperor: \"There must be eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest\" and \"stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals\" (Potsdam 2, pg. 1474-1476).

with the understanding of how the Japanese people felt about the Emperor, it seems unlikely that they would surrender

[Duper]

For first H-Bomb? hmm...I must be thinking of something different...

Ah ha! Remember now! I think Soviet's got nukes 1949 (atomic), then we made our thermonuclear/fusion/hyrdrogen bomb then. The next year, in either March or April, Soviets used there's...anyways, I can't find the paper, I'll look for it later.

the first H-Bomb (hydrogen isotope fission) was dropped 1952.
Watch

[CUDA]

this is a good discussion, its nice to take a break from Politics for a while, there seems to be good participation also

[Behemoth]

Okay, but the method is not the only thing to be considered here. We also have to consider:

- Civilian/soldier status. The decision was made to targeting civilians because it would cause "maximum psychological impact". Is this ethically equivalent to killing soldiers with conventional weapons?

- After-impact (e.g. the levels of radiation in the areas after detonation). Duper mentioned taking care of a radiation victim (one of ours!) a page or so back. The radiation levels fell relatively quickly, but the effects on people there are still being seen.

The maximum psychological effect would be no different then them attacking pearl harbor, it was just on a larger scale, and it showed them we had the power to make a threat of such a scale that we could backup, a power they did not yet have.

I agree, the after effect was/is a repulsive reminder of a gross misjudgement made by the japanese leaders at one point in history, but pointing the finger at the one who pulled the final trigger is not the answer to why those people suffered that way.

I'm not so sure about that one, simply because it's unclear whether the Japanese leadership really believed the U.S. could duplicate that kind of power. There was some serious skepticism in their ranks about it.

I'm not sure either, i wasn't there, all i can go on is what history tells me, and then i can make up an opinion on it of my own by looking at the details.

[CUDA]

OH and FYI Japan WAS trying to develop their own nuke. I'm sure they wouldn't have hesitated to used it.

Nuclear Weapons - World War II

In the fall of 1940, the Japanese army concluded that constructing an atomic bomb was indeed feasible. The Institute of Physical and Chemical Research, or Rikken, was assigned the project under the direction of Yoshio Nishina. The Japanese Navy was also diligently working to create its own \"superbomb\" under a project was dubbed F-Go, headed by Bunsaku Arakatsu at the end of World War II. The F-Go program [or No. F, for fission] began at Kyoto in 1942. However, the military commitment wasn't backed with adequate resources, and the Japanese effort to an atomic bomb had made little progress by the end of the war.

Japan's nuclear efforts were disrupted in April 1945 when a B-29 raid damaged Nishina's thermal diffusion separation apparatus. Some reports claim the Japanese subsequently moved their atomic operations to Konan [Hungnam, now part of North Korea]. The Japanese may have used this facility for making small quantities of heavy water. The Japanese plant was captured by Soviet troops at war's end, and some reports claim that the output of the Hungnam plant was collected every other month by Soviet submarines.

There are indications that Japan had a more sizable program than is commonly understood, and that there was close cooperation among the Axis powers, including a secretive exchange of war materiel. The German submarine U-234, which surrendered to US forces in May 1945, was found to be carrying 560 kilograms of Uranium oxide destined for Japan's own atomic program. The oxide contained about 3.5 kilograms of the isotope U-235, which would have been about a fifth of the total U-235 needed to make one bomb. After Japan surrendered on 15 August 1945, the occupying US Army found five Japanese cyclotrons, which could be used to separate fissionable material from ordinary uranium. The Americans smashed the cyclotrons and dumped them into Tokyo Harbor

[Stroodles]

...I agree that it is terrible that they died. But that 180,000 is NOTHING compared to the deaths we would have otherwise had.

Stroodles, as I said above, there's no way anyone could know that with any real certainty. I'm sorry, but predictions about how the Pacific war 'would have progressed' simply cannot be as reliable as you're implying.

Numerous attempts have been made to estimate military and civilian losses, but every one of them is highly speculative, and based on too many assumptions about political and military moves. There's simply too much involved to make a legitimate argument comparing death tolls.

People on both ends of the debate love to quote military leaders and cite examples which seem to support their side. But this only serves to reinforce the fact that there are far too many varied possibilities to have an accurate model.

Perhaps the bombs caused less death than otherwise; perhaps not. We just don't know. For anyone here claiming certainty about whether the war would have ended sooner or later or with X casualties or Y casualties: it's just not that definitive.


... So, rather than making unverifiable arguments comparing death tolls, how about making an argument about one of the larger questions ('necessary evils', or targeting of civilians, etc.)?

Based on the facts CUDA presented alone, the toll would be OBVIOUSLY much higher then 180,000. The exact number can't be certain but to say that it's less then that is simply ludicrix. As for the necassary evils, I touched on that in my above post. The civilian cost both in infastructure and lives is much less, and it cannot be set in stone, but it's obviously much greater.

It's sad that the war had to happen, and it's terrible for all those involved. But I think all our actions were highly justified. It's terrible that all those people had to die - most of them had no real dislike of America at all, they were just trying to live their lives. Unfortunantly, targeting them was the fastest way to end the war. You can't say we should discuss whether the choice was right without looking at casualties, damages, costs of repair, speed of ending the war, length of war stopped, future political implications, etc. They can't be proven for a fact, but ignoring them turns it into a black and white issue, which it never really is.

[Bet51987]

really Bee. Talk to your GrandParents.

I have no relatives, not one you see.
But if I did, they'd be like me.

At least I hope they would've been like me. Anyway all I have are the books I read and the conclusions I made from them. I don't see anything new here that would make me change my mind.

I'm not sure either, i wasn't there, all i can go on is what history tells me, and then i can make up an opinion on it of my own by looking at the details.

Exactly.

Bee

[Tunnelcat]

Can I make a comment on the original topic? Single emotions are not necessarily bad or evil by themselves. We can hate some food because it made us sick or love our spouse or even lust after some new gadget. I think it's when several emotions are combined and become a dominant influence in the brain, especially when inhibition is lacking, that problems occur with human behavior. Any thing in excess can be a bad thing, but get rid of control (inhibition) and/or add several emotions together and you get a toxic recipe for trouble.

Two really nasty combinations of emotions are:

1) Lust, greed and lack of empathy.

2) Hate, love of power and lack of empathy.

[Stroodles]

... a for sure invasion...

As I just said above, there's nothing "for sure" about it.

Bet says she's certain the war 'would have ended soon', and cites reasons for it.

Others like you and Stroodles say they're certain it 'would have become a protracted invasion', and cite reasons for it.

... but again, it's simply not that definitive. We just don't know, with any level of accuracy.

What? Of course it was a for sure invasion. without being bombed Japan was not going to miraculously surrender for no explainable reason. The plans were drawn up. We were going to invade Japan up until the bomb was brought out. You can't say that the invasion may or may not have happened. That was the alternative everyone was gunning for!

[Stroodles]

Can I make a comment on the original topic? Single emotions are not necessarily bad or evil by themselves. We can hate some food because it made us sick or love our spouse or even lust after some new gadget. I think it's when several emotions are combined and become a dominant influence in the brain, especially when inhibition is lacking, that problems occur with human behavior. Any thing in excess can be a bad thing, but get rid of control (inhibition) and/or add several emotions together and you get a toxic recipe for trouble.

Two really nasty combinations of emotions are:

1) Lust, greed and lack of empathy.

2) Hate, love of power and lack of empathy.

I agree. I think that when emotions combine, true change is produced - whether it used for creation, or whether it is used for destruction.

[Stroodles]

really Bee. Talk to your GrandParents.

I have no relatives, not one you see.
But if I did, they'd be like me.

At least I hope they would've been like me. Anyway all I have are the books I read and the conclusions I made from them. I don't see anything new here that would make me change my mind.

I'm not sure either, i wasn't there, all i can go on is what history tells me, and then i can make up an opinion on it of my own by looking at the details.

Exactly.

Bee

Bee, you conclusions are based largely on the "fact" that Japan was ready to surrender, which military documents have proven to be untrue. They had plenty of firepower avalible. The fact that you lack open-mindedness about the issue is a little saddening.

[Foil]

...the toll would be OBVIOUSLY much higher then 180,000.
...
it's obviously much greater.
...
Of course it was a for sure invasion.

"Obvious", "for sure"? I'm sorry, but you're citing a level of certainty that just doesn't hold up.

An invasion scenario may be a foregone conclusion to you, but it requires a huge number of assumptions about not only military success, but political moves as well.

If it's so "obvious"' that the US would suffer such extreme losses... what makes you so "for sure" certain that an invasion would have been deemed necessary or even feasible? What makes you so certain that an invasion would have been supported by a nation who was already experiencing high losses in invasions in Europe?

It's akin to making claims about what might have happened in the Middle East if the Iraq invasion had never occurred. We know about some of the possibilities, but to claim certainty is misguided at best.

Bee, you[r] conclusions are based largely on the "fact" that Japan was ready to surrender, which military documents have proven to be untrue.

"Proven"? Really? Show me.

[Stroodles]

Bee, you[r] conclusions are based largely on the "fact" that Japan was ready to surrender, which military documents have proven to be untrue.

"Proven"? Really? Show me.

Posted by CUDA on the first page. Primary source document.

Quote:
This article was written by USS SLC WWII Veteran H. H. Jaekel in 1996 to the University on behalf of his granddaughter when he found out what a text book she was using said about the dropping of the atomic bomb.

The end of World War II, described by most of our Educational institutions and the Media, especially during 50th anniversary year, centers around the use of the Atomic Bomb. They fail to remember what happened at Pearl Harbor December 7, 1941, (that started the whole thing in the first place), the Bataan Death March, the Japanese Hell Ship (where 1800 American Prisoners prayed to die and all but 8 got their wish), the Rape of Nanking, plus many other deceitful acts and atrocities not mentioned in this article.

They failed to look at the planned invasion of the Japanese mainland and the enormous cost in human lives on both sides that would have occurred.

They failed to include the planned invasion, that became unnecessary after the A-bombs were dropped on Hiroshima, August 6, 1945 and Nagasaki, August 9, 1945, plus the acceptance of Allied Surrender Terms, August 14, 1945.

All of the above events and many other facts must also be included in the history books and be part of the equation.

This is what happened after the Japanese surrender, 14th of August, 1945 and what could have happened.

Deep in the National Archives hidden for decades, lie thousands of pages of dusty yellowing documents stamped "TOP SECRET". These documents, now declassified, are the plans for Operation Downfall, the invasion of the Japanese Homeland during World War II. Only a few Americans in 1945 were aware of the elaborate plans that had been prepared for the Allied Invasion of the Japanese Homeland. Even fewer today are aware of the defense the Japanese had prepared to counter the invasion had it occurred.

"Japan, loser of the Pacific War, still had plenty of deadly weapons to defend its homeland against invasion. Any invasion attempt would have been Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa and all the other bloody Pacific battles wrapped into one."

The demolition teams started to neutralize Japanese defenses, August 28, 1945, in Tokyo Bay and on mainland Japan, prior to the formal surrender aboard the USS Missouri , September 2, 1945. After the initial "demilitarization" of ships in Tokyo Bay was completed, IE: (destroying ammunition, dismantling guns and throwing the breeches overboard), the teams moved inland. There they blew up fleets of suicide boats moored all along the coast, exploded torpedoes, disabled or destroyed two man "suicide" submarines. In caves that honeycomb the coastline, the big coastal defense guns were blown up.

"Weapons guarding the Japanese homeland were insidiously camouflaged." Gun emplacements were buried in craggy hillsides. Their ammunition supplies moved through a series of underground tunnels on tiny railroads they could have never be seen by invaders from the sea or air. Huge caves had been hollowed out in the hills along the coast. These were crammed with heavy armaments, torpedoes, small suicide submarines, mines and all manner of explosive devices.

The Invasion of Japan, OPERATION DOWNFALL, called for two massive military undertakings to be carried out in succession and aimed at the heart of the Japanese Empire.

In the first invasion, (code named OPERATION OLYMPIC), combat troops would land on Japan by amphibious assault during the early morning hours of November 1, 1945. Fourteen combat divisions of soldiers and Marines would land on heavily fortified and defended Kyushu, the southernmost of the Japanese home islands, after an unprecedented naval and air bombardment.

The second invasion on March 1, 1946, (code named OPERATION CORONET), would send 22 combat divisions against one million Japanese defenders of the main island of Honshu. Its goal: the unconditional surrender of Japan.

OPERATION DOWNFALL was to be a strictly American operation, except for a part of the British Pacific Fleet. It called for using the entire Marine Corps, the entire Pacific Navy, elements of the Seventh Army Air Force, the Eighth Air Force (recently re-deployed from Europe), The 20th Air Force and the American Far Eastern Air Force.

More than 1.5 million combat troops, with 3 million more in support, ( more than 40 per cent of all servicemen still in uniform in 1945), would be directly involved in two amphibious assaults.

Casualties were expected to be extremely heavy. Admiral William Leahy estimated more than 250,00 killed or wounded on Kyushu alone. General Charles Willoughby, Chief of Intelligence for General Douglas MacArthur, estimated American casualties from the entire operation would be one million men by the fall of 1946. This was considered, by many, to be a very conservative estimate.

A naval blockade and strategic bombing of Japan was considered, most everyone agreed that they would choke and destroy cities, but leave whole armies intact.

After extensive deliberation, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, issued a top secret directive May 25, 1945, to proceed with the invasion of Kyushu, the southernmost island of Japan. The target date was set for after the typhoon season. Two days later the United States issued a Potsdam Proclamation which called upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or face total destruction.

Three days later, the Japanese government news agency broadcast to the world, Japan would ignore the proclamation and would refuse to surrender.

During this same period it was learned from monitoring Japanese radio broadcasts, that they were closing all schools, mobilizing the schoolchildren, arming the civilian population, fortifying caves and constructing underground defenses.

OPERATION OLYMPIC called for a four pronged assault on Kyushu. Its objective was to seize and control the southern one-third of that island and establish naval and air bases, tighten the naval blockade of the home islands, destroy units of the main Japanese army and support the later invasion of the Tokyo plain.

The preliminary invasion would begin October 27, 1945, when the 40th Infantry Division would land on a series of small islands west and southwest of Kyushu. At the same time the 158th Regimental Combat Team would land and occupy a small island 28 miles south of Kyushu. On these islands, seaplane bases would be established, radar stations set up to provide advance warning to the invasion fleet, direct carrier base aircraft and provide an emergency anchorage for the invasion fleet, should things not go well on the day of invasion of Kyushu.

As the invasion grew imminent, the massive power of the Third and Fifth fleets would approach Japan, The Third Fleet, under Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, would provide strategic support for operation against Honshu and Hokkaido.

Halsey's fleet would be composed of battleships, heavy cruisers, destroyers, dozens of support ships and three fast carrier groups. Hundreds of Navy fighters, dive bombers and torpedo planes would hit targets all over the island of Honshu.

The 3000 ship Fifth Fleet, under Admiral Spruance, would carry the invasion troops. Several days before the invasion, the battleships, heavy cruisers and destroyers would pour thousands of tons of high explosives into the target areas. They would not cease the bombardment until after the landing forces had launched. The invasion would begin in the early morning hours of November 1,1945. Thousands of soldiers and Marines would pour ashore on beaches all along the eastern, southern and western coasts of Kyushu.

Waves of aircraft from 66 carriers would bomb, rocket and strafe enemy defenses, gun and troop concentrations along the beaches. The Eastern Assault Force, consisting of the 25th, 33rd and 41st infantry divisions, would land near Miyaski, at beaches called Austin, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler and Cord, move inland and attempt to capture the city and its nearby airfield.

The Southern Force, consisting of the First Cavalry, 43rd and Ameri-Cal divisions, would land at beaches labeled DeSoto, Dusenburg, Essex, Ford and Franklin and attempt to capture Shibushi and the city of Kanoya and its airfield.

On the western shore of Kyushu, at beaches Pontiac, Reo, Rolls Royce, Saxon, Star, Studebaker, Stutz and Zepher the 5th Amphibious Corps would land the Second, Third and Fifth Marine divisions, sending half of its force inland to Sendai and the other half to the port city of Kagoshima.

On November 4,1945 the 81st, 98th, and 11th Airborne Divisions would feign an attack off the island of Shikoku then land near Kaimondake, (if not needed elsewhere), near the southernmost tip of Kagoshima Bay at beaches designated Locomobile, Lincoln, LaSalle, Hupmobile, Moon, Mercedes, Maxwell, Overland, Oldsmobile, Packard and Plymouth.

Operation Olympic was not just a plan for invasion, but for conquest and occupation as well. It was expected to take four months to achieve its objective, with three fresh divisions per month to be landed to support the operation if needed.

If all went well with Operation Olympic, Operation Cornet would be launched March 1, 1946. Operation Cornet would be twice the size of Olympic, with as many as 28 divisions landing on Honshu. All along the coast near Tokyo, the American First Army would land the 5th, 7th, 27th, 44th, 86th, and 96th Infantry Divisions along with the 1st, 4th, and 6th Marine Divisions.

At Sagami Bay, just south of Tokyo, the entire 8th and 10th armies would strike north and east to clear the long western shore of Tokyo Bay, then attempt to go as far as Yokohama. The assault troops landing south of Tokyo would be the 4th, 6th, 8th, 24th, 31st, 32nd and 87th Infantry Divisions along with the 13th and 20th Armored divisions.

Following the assault eight more divisions, the 2nd, 28th, 35th, 91st, 95th, 97th, and 104th Infantry divisions and the 11th Airborne Division, would be landed. If additional troops were needed as expected, other divisions re-deployed from Europe and undergoing training in the United States would be shipped to Japan in what was hoped to be the final push.

The Japanese defense was expected to be even more fierce than any encountered thus far in the war. Schools had been closed and the entire civilian population mobilized. The Shinto cult or religion was the national religion of Japan and the people had been taught to follow the Imperial Cult without question. Self sacrifice was extolled as the highest virtue and any order from the Emperor, the military, the government or at school must be followed without question.

Captured documents and postwar interrogation of Japanese military leaders disclosed that information concerning the number of Japanese planes available for the defense of the home islands were dangerously in error. During the sea battle at Okinawa alone, Japanese Kamikaze aircraft sank 32 Allied ships and damaged more than 400 others.

During the summer of 1945, American top brass concluded that the Japanese had spent their air force since American bombers and fighters daily flew unmolested over Japan. What military leaders did not know was that by the end of July, the Japanese had been saving all aircraft, fuel and pilots in reserve, and had been feverishly building new planes for the decisive battles defending their homeland.

As part of the Ketsu-go, the name of the plan to defend Japan, the Japanese were building 20 suicide take-off airstrips in southern Kyushu with underground hangars. They also had camouflaged airfields and nine seaplane bases.

On the night before the expected invasion, 50 Japanese seaplane bombers and 150 kamikaze planes were to be launched in a suicide attack on the fleet. The Japanese also had 58 more airfields in Korea, western Honshu and Shikoku, which were also to be used for massive suicide attacks.

Allied intelligence had established that the Japanese had no more than 2500 aircraft of which they guessed 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks. In August 1945, however; unknown to Allied Intelligence, the Japanese still had 5,651 army and 7,074 navy aircraft, for a total of 12,725 planes of all types.

Every village had some kind of aircraft manufacturing activity hidden in mines, railway tunnels, under viaducts and in basements of department stores, working to construct new planes. In addition they were building newer and more effective models of the Okka, a rocket propelled bomb, like the German V-1, but flown by a suicide pilot.

When the invasion became imminent, ketsu-Go called for a four fold aerial plan of attack to destroy up to 800 Allied ships. While Allied ships were approaching Japan, but still in the open seas, an initial force of 2,000 army and navy fighters were to fight to the death to control the skies over Kyushu.

A second force of 350 Japanese navy pilots were to attack the main body of the Allied task force to keep it from using its fire support and air cover from protecting the troop carrying transports. While these forces engaged a third force of 825 suicide planes was to hit the American transports. As the invasion convoys approached the beaches, another 2,000 suicide planes were to be launched in waves of 200 to 300, to be used in hour by hour attacks.

American troops would be arriving in about 180 lightly armed transports and 70 cargo vessels. By mid-morning of the first day of the invasion, most of the land based aircraft would be forced to return to their bases, leaving the defense to the carrier pilots and shipboard gunners. Carrier pilots, crippled by fatigue, would have to land time and time again to rearm and refuel. Guns would malfunction from the heat of continuous firing and ammunition would become scarce. Gun crews would be exhausted by nightfall, but still waves of kamikaze would continue. With the invasion fleet hovering off the beaches, all remaining aircraft would be committed to non-stop suicide attacks, which the Japanese hoped could be sustained for 10 days.

The Japanese planned to coordinate their attacks from 40 remaining submarines. Some would be armed with long lance torpedoes with a range of 20 miles to attack the invasion fleet 180 miles of Kyushu.

The Imperial Navy had 23 destroyers and two cruisers operational. They would be used to counterattack the American invasion fleet. A number of destroyers were to be beached at the last minute to be used as anti invasion gun platforms.

Once offshore, the invasion fleet would be forced to defend not only against the attacks from the air, but would also be confronted with suicide attacks from sea.

Once the troops were on the beaches, they would face suicide attacks from large numbers of armed civilian and army units, all for the Emperor and their homeland. As American troops advanced inland, booby traps, mine fields, and well hidden defenses would make every foot of the way a bloody battle. Casualties on both sides would be extremely heavy but the suicidal attacks and the lightly armed civilians would be cut down in large numbers by the heavily armed and well trained American units.

Harry Truman said in defense of, WHY I DROPPED THE ATOMIC BOMB. "It was a question of saving hundreds of thousands of American lives. You don't feel normal when you have to plan hundreds of thousands of deaths of American boys who are alive and joking and having fun while your doing your planning. You break your heart and your head trying to figure out a way to save one life.

I made the only decision I knew how to make. I did what I thought was right. I still think that".

September 3, 1996
"SO DO I HARRY"
A Pearl Harbor Survivor

[CUDA]

this happened less than 2 weeks before the first bomb was dropped.
the Potsdamn Proclamation was recieved by the Japanese on 7-26-45 and turned down on 7-29-45 that left exactly 7 days before Hiroshima. 8-6-45 there was no doubt that there would be an invasion, the first wave was sceduled to land Nov 45, that gave them 4 months to get the logistics in place before D-day H-hour.

President Truman approved the plans for the invasions July 24. Two days later, the United Nations issued the Potsdam Proclamation, which called upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or face total destruction. Three days later, the Japanese governmental news agency broadcast to the world that Japan would ignore the proclamation and would refuse to surrender. During this sane period it was learned -- via monitoring Japanese radio broadcasts -- that Japan had closed all schools and mobilized its schoolchildren, was arming its civilian population and was fortifying caves and building underground defenses.

http://www.kilroywashere.org/006-Pages/Invasion.html

[Stroodles]

But CUDA, we can't know for sure there would have been a war! Maybe all the countries would just say \"screw this\" and go home. You never know!

[CUDA]

But CUDA, we can't know for sure there would have been a war! Maybe all the countries would just say "screw this" and go home. You never know!

but isnt that what they did?? they KNEW there would be a prolonged invasion maybe taking another year at the minimum. so the said screw this and dropped the Bomb. people seem to forget that at thhis point of the war the invasion would be almost souly an American endeavour. the people and the government did not want this to contniue any longer

[Stroodles]

That's what I was getting at CUDA. Sorry if I was unclear.

[Foil]

Bee, you[r] conclusions are based largely on the "fact" that Japan was ready to surrender, which military documents have proven to be untrue.

"Proven"? Really? Show me.

Posted by CUDA on the first page. Primary source document.
[Document citing military plans]

My challenge still stands.

You posted an article citing unreferenced military invasion plans? While it lends some credibility to the possibility of an invasion scenario, it's hardly "proof" (your term, not mine) about Japan's readiness to surrender.

Plans, particularly military plans, are just that. The US and Japanese forces had plans for other contingencies and possibilities as well. The mere existence of a set of plans isn't much, unless you can "prove" (again, your term, not mine) those plans were ordered and acted on.

But more importantly, you didn't even address the challenge. You claimed that you could prove Japan wasn't ready to surrender. But rather than providing information about what Japanese command was thinking, you posted an article about US ideas. How does that prove anything about Japan's readiness to surrender?

[P.S. Next time, post the link and/or the relevant sections of article, rather than copy/pasting the entire text. A quote box would also have been appropriate.]

[Foil]

...people seem to forget that at thhis point of the war the invasion would be almost souly an American endeavour. the people and the government did not want this to contniue any longer

Exactly.

As I stated above, the US's willingness to endure more prolonged land war was wavering at that time. Perhaps the desire to stop Japan's aggression would have been enough to support an invasion, perhaps not.

Yet Stroodles continues to claim that invasion was inevitable/"obvious"/"for sure".

[Bet51987]

The fact that you lack open-mindedness about the issue is a little saddening.

I was one who believed everything I was taught in school but Hiroshima always bothered me. I DID have an open mind about this and that's why I read everything I could get my hands on from scientists to generals.

I could care less what people here think of me. I came to my conclusion after a lot of study. Truman was a liar.

Bee

[CUDA]

Nothing is ever a certain, and we'll never know because of the 2 A-bombs. but if I was a betting man I would put money on the invasion. the American people all-tho tired of the war wanted revenge for Pearl Harbor, and with the Japanese rejection of the Potsdam Declaration appeared unwilling to surrender

[CUDA]

Truman was a liar.

Bee

Quote me the Lie

[Spidey]

All I can do is laugh if anybody thinks the US wasn’t going to take the war to it’s ultimate conclusion. The war was over in Europe…and all the tools were in place…including the will!

[Foil]

Bet, I tend to agree with you in some ways about Truman's decision, but he wasn't a liar or callous monster.

Spidey, I'm not so sure about \"the will\", as you put it. There were some pretty strong feelings about \"bringing the troops home\" at the time, and I'm not convinced the country would have supported another extended invasion.

[Spidey]

Ok Foil, in your personal opinion…

Do you think the US was going to stop, before prosecuting the war?

[Will Robinson]

..

I could care less what people here think of me. I came to my conclusion after a lot of study. Truman was a liar.

Bee

I'm with Cuda on this one, show me the lie! What did he lie about that has you so worked up?
You said you read some things that made you think this way, I can't find anything worthy of the level of your disgust with him, enlighten us!

[Stroodles]

...people seem to forget that at thhis point of the war the invasion would be almost souly an American endeavour. the people and the government did not want this to contniue any longer

Exactly.

As I stated above, the US's willingness to endure more prolonged land war was wavering at that time. Perhaps the desire to stop Japan's aggression would have been enough to support an invasion, perhaps not.

Yet Stroodles continues to claim that invasion was inevitable/"obvious"/"for sure".

I was trying to cite CUDA's earlier statements. It didn't have the quote box because I couldn't get it to work right, sorry. New at the slash-brackets stuff.

[Bet51987]

..

I could care less what people here think of me. I came to my conclusion after a lot of study. Truman was a liar.

Bee

I'm with Cuda on this one, show me the lie! What did he lie about that has you so worked up?
You said you read some things that made you think this way, I can't find anything worthy of the level of your disgust with him, enlighten us!

I don't have to enlighten anyone but I'll give you a hint.

"We have used the bomb against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, and against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare."

Bettina

[Stroodles]

Bee-The bomb wasn't dropped because we wanted the people in Hiroshima/Nagasaki to die. It was used to send Japan a message. So no, what he said was not a lie.

[Spidey]

Bee…

By “those” he meant the Japanese…but then you already knew that.

Nice hair split to support the theory.

You can separate the “innocent” from the “soldiers” but the Japanese themselves don’t do that, they believe that they do things as a people, all for one and one for all.

As far as innocent goes…well I believe the only “innocent” ones in war are the children, because the men at the front can’t fight without the support of the women making bombs and supplying the frontline.

The children are unfortunate collateral victims in any war.

But on the other hand, look at Vendetta…you don’t lose the guilt of the parents for seven generations, and even Christians believe that guilt is passed from generation to generation. (I personally don’t believe this, and I know you are not Christian)

I’m going to say this tho…you are perfectly within your rights to your opinion, (and I respect it) as long as you understand that is is just opinion, and not fact.

[Foil]

Ok Foil, in your personal opinion…

Do you think the US was going to stop, before prosecuting the war?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here. Stop when?

[Will Robinson]

.... I came to my conclusion after a lot of study. Truman was a liar.

Bee

I don't have to enlighten anyone but I'll give you a hint.

"We have used the bomb against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, and against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare."

Bettina

That's the highlight of your study?!?

[Duper]

... don’t lose the guilt of the parents for seven generations, and even Christians believe that guilt is passed from generation to generation. (I personally don’t believe this, and I know you are not Christian)

eh? nu uh. You gots some bad religion there Spidey. The bible's pretty clear that is does not. There were a couple pronouncements by God in some "special" cases (by Isaiah iirc), but not to everyone on the whole or as principle/doctrine. And certainly not under the new covenant. (but that's another thread)

[CUDA]

I don't have to enlighten anyone but I'll give you a hint.

"We have used the bomb against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, and against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare."

Bettina

OK let me dissect his quote for you, so hopefully you'll understand better

"We have used the bomb against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor,

Fact

against those who have starved

Fact

beaten

Fact

and executed American prisoners of war,

Fact

and against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare."

Fact

I fail to see any Lie there. they are without a doubt all factual statements. ONLY on the last could you make the argument that he was a Hypocrite. NOTHING MORE

Bee I think your slip is showing, it seems you don't like what Truman did. so it makes you content to call him a Liar, yet in your Wilson thread you defend a President that did Lie because you say at the moment that Wilson called him a liar he didn't lie and your content with that??

we can debate until we are blue in the face about the merits of the Bomb bringing the war to an end sooner or not. we'll never know. but your off the deep end on this one, you have crossed the line of historical debate, into vitriol and hate of a Man and a Time that you do not comprehend based on Emotion.

HEH I a Fart smuker, I brought this thread full circle.

[Spidey]

Ok Foil, in your personal opinion…

Do you think the US was going to stop, before prosecuting the war?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here. Stop when?

before prosecuting the war

prosecuting:
vt
take something to completion: to continue doing something, usually until it is finished or accomplished (formal)

In this case I meant…win

……………….

Duper, Relax…I was only referring to original sin…(I used two examples Vendetta & original sin)

………………

CUDA dude…she is separating innocents from combatants…so dropping the bomb on cities in her opinion were not the people Truman was talking about.