Most influential emotion in human history?

[woodchip]

..

I could care less what people here think of me. I came to my conclusion after a lot of study. Truman was a liar.

Bee

I'm with Cuda on this one, show me the lie! What did he lie about that has you so worked up?
You said you read some things that made you think this way, I can't find anything worthy of the level of your disgust with him, enlighten us!

I don't have to enlighten anyone but I'll give you a hint.

"We have used the bomb against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, and against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare."

Bettina

I'm looking for the lie but danged If I can see one.

[Spidey]

Oy vey

[Foil]

Woody, Cuda:

Come on, guys. Bet is saying that the people the bombs were dropped on (Japanese civilians) are not the people Truman says we dropped the bombs on (Japanese military). That's a valid point, and it reflects the general perception at the time of "the Japs" as a faceless enemy.

That said, I think Spidey is right that Truman was talking about the nation of Japan as a whole. Poorly chosen wording, but not malicious.

Ok Foil, in your personal opinion…

Do you think the US was going to stop, before prosecuting [clarified: winning] the war?

I don't know. It depends on what would have defined a 'win' or 'victory', which could be pretty subjective. Perhaps winning required an invasion, that's certainly possible. I also think it's possibile that a naval victory ending Japan's aggression could have been seen as an end to the war. People wanted to see an unconditional surrender, but the losses in Europe were being felt pretty strongly, and there was a growing sentiment about bringing the troops home.

[CUDA]

CUDA dude…she is separating innocents from combatants…so dropping the bomb on cities in her opinion were not the people Truman was talking about.

Understood, but that would be flawed thinking on her part.
because it disregards the facts that the Japanese were attacking the civilian population in China since 1937, so back to her Truman quote and the Hypocracy of the final segment, again Truman did not lie in his choice to drop the bomb, she just doesnt agree with the rational. which is fine we can agree to disagree. but there was no lie in her quote from Truman.

I would very much like to hear her thinking, but I doubt that will happen. she seems content in the research she has done, that I cannot change, which based on my research and knowledge of events it appears she is lacking in QUITE a bit of information. you can study an event, but if you ONLY study it from a particular point of view your information will be incomplete

[CUDA]

Woody, Cuda:

Come on, guys. Bet is saying that the people the bombs were dropped on (Japanese civilians) are not the people Truman says we dropped the bombs on (Japanese military). That's a valid point, and it reflects the general perception at the time of "the Japs" as a faceless enemy.

That said, I think Spidey is right that Truman was talking about the nation of Japan as a whole. Poorly chosen wording, but not malicious.

see my above post

Fair enough, but her choice of quote, and explaination as to why she chose that particular quote, was poor at best.

I would put money down against her having ever read my post war fact I provided, or any of the other events I provided.

we are all born Ignorant, choosing to stay that way is your fault. I can GUARANTEE she doesnt know everything about the war, if she chose not to increase her knowledge about these events or any other events, then she has wasted her day.

LEARN SOMETHING NEW EVERY DAY

[Krom]

Bleeding heart liberals cry out \"innocent children\" over and over again like fools; children of an evil empire grow up to be the adults of an evil empire. Do you ever wonder why when we start a war we build schools as we go along, do you think its some kind of charity for the betterment of mankind? Of course it isn't: we build schools in order to brainwash the children so when they grow up they will be friendly towards us. It is a way to eliminate future enemy forces without breaking international laws of warfare and it makes the goody-two-shoes people feel good about themselves even if they are openly raping their opponents culture. We did the same thing when we rebuilt Japan, guns and bombs may not have been going off anymore but we were still ultimately at war with their culture.

If you want to win a war against a culture, you aren't going to win it without getting dirty. If you try to stay all squeaky clean, then you may win battles but you will ultimately lose the war. It is fortunate our leaders don't see children of enemy states through rose colored glasses like some people here do.

[CUDA]

WAR IS HELL.

we certainly weren't the first to kill civilians, and we certainly haven't been the last.

[Duper]

Duper, Relax…I was only referring to original sin…(I used two examples Vendetta & original sin)

(a bit late with this) oh no worries. Just wanted to point it out. There are circles that believe that sin/guilt and such is passed down from generation to generation. (Generational curses if you will) It popped up (again) in the 70's. and point taken. thanks.

[woodchip]

Woody, Cuda:

Come on, guys. Bet is saying that the people the bombs were dropped on (Japanese civilians) are not the people Truman says we dropped the bombs on (Japanese military). That's a valid point, and it reflects the general perception at the time of "the Japs" as a faceless enemy.

That said, I think Spidey is right that Truman was talking about the nation of Japan as a whole. Poorly chosen wording, but not malicious.

I think Bee is looking at WW2 thru the lens of how she see's wars being fought by us today. Back then there was no worry about collateral damage. We were not worried then about civilian casualty's as it was war. Period.
So from her perspective and experience Trumen was a monster. Back then tho, he was just a man doing what he thought was best for the American people...not the Japanese people

[Behemoth]

Woody, Cuda:

Come on, guys. Bet is saying that the people the bombs were dropped on (Japanese civilians) are not the people Truman says we dropped the bombs on (Japanese military). That's a valid point, and it reflects the general perception at the time of "the Japs" as a faceless enemy.

That said, I think Spidey is right that Truman was talking about the nation of Japan as a whole. Poorly chosen wording, but not malicious.

I think Bee is looking at WW2 thru the lens of how she see's wars being fought by us today. Back then there was no worry about collateral damage. We were not worried then about civilian casualty's as it was war. Period.
So from her perspective and experience Trumen was a monster. Back then tho, he was just a man doing what he thought was best for the American people...not the Japanese people

Which is ultimately what war is all about, no?

Securing our unconditional surrender seems like more than enough to call it a victory, and as long as people are still talking about it even today, that means some will be demonized for the choices they were forced to make, and some will be seen as heroic symbols that quickly brought a war to an end.

My own opinion on it is that, given the circumstances the bombs were probably the best way to go instead of doing something similar to what we've been doing in iraq for the past several years.

[Bet51987]

...we are all born Ignorant, choosing to stay that way is your fault. I can GUARANTEE she doesnt know everything about the war, if she chose not to increase her knowledge about these events or any other events, then she has wasted her day.

No, I don't know everything about WW2 but I've read enough to know that Truman wasn't as honest as he's made out to be. If you want to believe I'm ignorant of the facts that's fine but I've read letters from generals in the field and was disturbed about some of the diary entries.

I don't mind being called ignorant, but don't call me ignorant because I'm not in agreement with you. You've read books and agree with Truman. I've read books and do not.

Bee

[AlphaDoG]

I've read books myself, that don't make books true!

[Duper]

speaking of which, have you ever read ring world? what a dumb book.

[CUDA]

I don't mind being called ignorant, but don't call me ignorant because I'm not in agreement with you. You've read books and agree with Truman. I've read books and do not.

first off your taking the definition of Ignorant Improper. I am not referring to you as stupid. and I am not calling you Ignorant because you disagree with me. but what I am saying is that IMO you had already formulated an Opinion on Truman, and your research was based on supporting that Opinion. you have refused to look at every available fact and its just because Truman Killed innocents (which is not in doubt here) that you have developed your hatred.

ig⋅no⋅rant
  /ˈɪgnərənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ig-ner-uhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact

No, I don't know everything about WW2 but I've read enough to know that Truman wasn't as honest as he's made out to be. If you want to believe I'm ignorant of the facts that's fine but I've read letters from generals in the field and was disturbed about some of the diary entries.

again NO ONE here disputes the total honesty or lack of in Truman's actions. but ONLY you have labeled the man without being objective to the other possibilities. again that is why I used the Ignorant statement. I was NOT calling you stupid. hence my quote

..we are all born Ignorant, choosing to stay that way is your fault.