Interesting read, but I thought this was funny
But this improved confidence is not optimism. It is the absence of terror.
Moderators: Tunnelcat, Jeff250
But this improved confidence is not optimism. It is the absence of terror.
Except the reasons why they were "worse off" is complicated and has nothing to do with market's being better, you and most north american's are really not qualified to comment on the disintegration of the USSR. There are a multitude of physical and knowledge based reasons things didn't work out, also everything we've read about so called revolutions is biased and filled with propaganda ("history is written by the victors").Spidey wrote:I pretty much agree with what you are saying Hatman, (in the most cynical context) but the problem is…when people revolt and replace the system with the “logical” replacement…they more often than not, end up worse off.
See “Bolshevik Revolution”
What do you want to know specifically? Your post is awfully vague. I'm saying that all the wonderful wealth was not the result of markets or capitalist ideology but part of a larger historical accumulation of knowledge and increases in efficient use of matter and energy, and that our ancestors gained access to these energy and matter sources by way of fraud, war, theft and murder, and these actions of our ancestors set us up to be wealthy long before we were born.Foil wrote:Hatman,
Welcome to the DBB.
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Regarding your post, I'm not sure I got your point as it relates to the discussion here.
You seem to take issue with the perceived value of money as it relates to power, but I'm unclear on your side references to property and technology.
Is there an overall point I'm missing?
I don't know what hole you climbed out of, but the above statement by you is quite possibly the most asinine statement I've heard on this board. I guess the idea of small businesses, you know...the corporations that provide 80-90% of the jobs in this country, started by a lone individual who did work 7 days a week to get his business profitable and thus defrauds your "think they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" phrase. Your misconception on where most corporations come from shows the only cretin here is you.Hatman wrote:
People don't get rich by hard work, if you look at history people got rich by killing others and taking their property. In fact all nations (and many businesses) owe their existence to stealing land and killing others, in fact the whole of human history is one of war, fraud and outright theft.
This is why I always laugh when people talk about "the economy" the "economy" is part of a hitsorical process, and quite frankly we live richly today because your ancestors were bastards to others. People tend to forget that and think they "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps".
The thing I find very entertaining about this exchange ... is that both of you are correct. Yes, Hatman is right with regards to a LOT of people and nations. History has shown that time and time again from ages past clear to the present. At the same time, Woodchip is also right with regards to a great many people, especially on the North American continent ... and it is true that a great many of those North Americans took advantage of the intended system at the expense of a great many hard working honest laborers.woodchip wrote:I don't know what hole you climbed out of, but the above statement by you is quite possibly the most asinine statement I've heard on this board. I guess the idea of small businesses, you know...the corporations that provide 80-90% of the jobs in this country, started by a lone individual who did work 7 days a week to get his business profitable and thus defrauds your "think they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" phrase. Your misconception on where most corporations come from shows the only cretin here is you.Hatman wrote:
People don't get rich by hard work, if you look at history people got rich by killing others and taking their property. In fact all nations (and many businesses) owe their existence to stealing land and killing others, in fact the whole of human history is one of war, fraud and outright theft.
This is why I always laugh when people talk about "the economy" the "economy" is part of a hitsorical process, and quite frankly we live richly today because your ancestors were bastards to others. People tend to forget that and think they "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps".
To that I say it can be considered accurate...but you leave it out their like an indictment of our best effort as if we have failed. I see it as a point on the time line of our markets and systems evolution. Not nearly as much raping, pillaging and burning and looting going on...now it's lawyers and treaties and global markets seeking equalibrium.I'm saying that all the wonderful wealth was not the result of markets or capitalist ideology but part of a larger historical accumulation of knowledge and increases in efficient use of matter and energy, and that our ancestors gained access to these energy and matter sources by way of fraud, war, theft and murder, and these actions of our ancestors set us up to be wealthy long before we were born.
Since humanity doesn't have a choice to where it is born and most humans are subject to historical limits on available opportunities.
Those who aren't well read in history should refrain from making false accusations.woodchip wrote:I don't know what hole you climbed out of, but the above statement by you is quite possibly the most asinine statement I've heard on this board. I guess the idea of small businesses, you know...the corporations that provide 80-90% of the jobs in this country, started by a lone individual who did work 7 days a week to get his business profitable and thus defrauds your "think they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" phrase. Your misconception on where most corporations come from shows the only cretin here is you.Hatman wrote:
People don't get rich by hard work, if you look at history people got rich by killing others and taking their property. In fact all nations (and many businesses) owe their existence to stealing land and killing others, in fact the whole of human history is one of war, fraud and outright theft.
This is why I always laugh when people talk about "the economy" the "economy" is part of a hitsorical process, and quite frankly we live richly today because your ancestors were bastards to others. People tend to forget that and think they "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps".
Welcome to the DBB