Note re DMB-XP beta testing

[Diedel]

To those who are interested in testing DLE-XP:

If you are willing to agree to the following statement, I'd love to see you as a tester:

Agreement

• You will be granted the right to use the DLE-XP executable for non-profit, testing purposes.
• Bryan Aamot or I can recall this right w/o giving a reason any time we see fit. In that case, you will have to remove DLE-XP from all the storage media where you have stored it.
• You must not pass on DLE-XP, neither directly nor indirectly (e.g. by providing a download location and link for it) without Bryan's or my express permission.
• You agree to provide sufficiently detailed bug reports to me for bug fixing purposes, including all data used when encountering a bug.
• Any data (e.g. levels) provided by you together with bug reports will only be used by me for debugging DLE-XP and not be passed to others.
• You agree to naming me a valid e-mail address of yours (not a hotmail or similar 'anonymous' account) for getting access to full versions of the DLE-XP executable.
• Your e-mail address will only be used for communicating with you in the process of testing and debugging DLE-XP. It will not be passed to others. It will only be used by me in a firewall and virus protected environment to minimize the risk of it being abused by any harmful activity of third parties (e.g. hackers, viruses etc.) on my computers.
• Addendum [5/8/2004]: You agree to reveal your real name to me for communication regarding DLE-XP beta testing, like you will in return be revealed mine. Your real name will be treated with absolute privacy and not revealed by me anywhere or to anybody else without your prior permission. The same applies to your treating my real name and e-mail address.

I am not trying to bug you, and as Bryan has already told me he would make DLE-XP publicly available as an upgrade to DMB2 once it has been sufficiently tested, I believe this is rather a matter of time and a formality. Yet, Bryan has reserved all rights in the software, so I cannot grant you permission to use it w/o such an agreement.

So, if you reply to this message, quoting the (orange) agreement, and clearly express your consent with the agreement, I will check back with Bryan, and if he agrees make DLE-XP executables available to you now and whenever there is an update once I have your e-mail address (which you can PM or e-mail me - see my profile).

The same goes for everybody who'd like to test DLE-XP. Again: I appreciate testers and acknowledge their doing it for free, but as the software does not belong to me, I have to ask for this.

Diedel

[CDN_Merlin]

Agreement

You will be granted the right to use the DMB-XP executable for non-profit, testing purposes. Bryan or I can recall this right w/o reason any time we see fit. In that case, you will have to remove DMB-XP from all your storage media. You must not pass on DMB-XP, neither directly nor indirectly (e.g. by providing a download location and link for it) without Bryan's or my express permission. You agree to provide sufficiently detailed bug reports including all data used when encountering a bug to me for bug fixing purposes.

I am not trying to bug you, and as Bryan has already told me he would make DMB-XP publicly available as an upgrade to DMB2 once it has been sufficiently tested, I believe this is rather a matter of time and a formality. Yet, Bryan has reserved all rights in the software, so I cannot grant you permission to use it w/o such an agreement.

Diedel

I agree.

[Lothar]

Agreement

* You will be granted the right to use the DMB-XP executable for non-profit, testing purposes.
* Bryan Aamot or I can recall this right w/o giving a reason any time we see fit. In that case, you will have to remove DMB-XP from all the storage media where you have stored it.
* You must not pass on DMB-XP, neither directly nor indirectly (e.g. by providing a download location and link for it) without Bryan's or my express permission.
* You agree to provide sufficiently detailed bug reports to me for bug fixing purposes, including all data used when encountering a bug.
* Any data (e.g. levels) provided by you together with bug reports will only be used for debugging DMB-XP and not be passed to others.
* You agree to naming me a valid e-mail address of yours (not a hotmail or similar 'anonymous' account) is required for getting access to full versions of the DMB-XP executable.
* Your e-mail address will only be used for communicating with you in the process of testing and debugging DMB-XP. It will not be passed to others. It will only be used by me in a firewall and virus protected environment to minimize the risk of it being abused by any harmful activity of third parties (e.g. hackers, viruses etc.) on my computers.

I agree to all except for this ambiguous statement: "Any data (e.g. levels) provided by you together with bug reports will only be used for debugging DMB-XP and not be passed to others."

I'm unclear by what you mean -- do you mean that any levels we create, we can only use for DMB-XP debugging? (If it's this, then I disagree.) Or do you only mean that any levels we create and send to you, you're not going to send them to others, but that it's OK if we do? (If it's this, then I agree.)

My valid e-mail address is in my profile.

[Diedel]

It means that I will not use your data (e.g. levels) for other purposes than debugging, not that you mustn't use them otherwise. In other words: That statement is meant to protect your property (e.g. levels).

I have changed the above text appropriately.

Bryan has some gripes though about publishing DLE-XP (renamed now to Descent Level Editor) due to copyright issues with interplay that need to be resolved ... so the whole matter has to wait until this is clarified.

[Diedel]

Hi guys,

Bryan Aamot has just told me that we can start beta testing DLE-XP, and that after sufficient testing and eventual bug fixing, it will be made publicly available. Until then, our agreement will be effective.

All applicants for beta testing has been an e-mail containing the details and access data.

[Kyouryuu]

I never got an e-mail?
kyouryuu@planetdescent.com

[Lobber]

Not to sound like a newbie or anything, but what's DLE-XP?

[OnetoomanyDumplings]

No, that's okay... It's pretty new. It's a DMB2 upgrade that Diedel's making. It has a real nice design, much better than the old program. We're doing the beta testing now, but it'll eventually be put out to the public once most of the bugs get worked out. You can get a demo off his site.

[Diedel]

I never got an e-mail?
kyouryuu@planetdescent.com

I had sent you two e-mails already, but I will send another one.

Actually, I have sent access codes for dle-xp to all beta testers by e-mail, so if anybody else hasn't received them, please post here.

[Jeff250]

I'd like in. jeff250 -at- gmx -dot- net
TIA

[Sapphire Wolf]

My current e-mail address is:

chad.d@juno.com

[SSX-Thunderbird]

Agreement

• You will be granted the right to use the DLE-XP executable for non-profit, testing purposes.
• Bryan Aamot or I can recall this right w/o giving a reason any time we see fit. In that case, you will have to remove DLE-XP from all the storage media where you have stored it.
• You must not pass on DLE-XP, neither directly nor indirectly (e.g. by providing a download location and link for it) without Bryan's or my express permission.
• You agree to provide sufficiently detailed bug reports to me for bug fixing purposes, including all data used when encountering a bug.
• Any data (e.g. levels) provided by you together with bug reports will only be used by me for debugging DLE-XP and not be passed to others.
• You agree to naming me a valid e-mail address of yours (not a hotmail or similar 'anonymous' account) for getting access to full versions of the DLE-XP executable.
• Your e-mail address will only be used for communicating with you in the process of testing and debugging DLE-XP. It will not be passed to others. It will only be used by me in a firewall and virus protected environment to minimize the risk of it being abused by any harmful activity of third parties (e.g. hackers, viruses etc.) on my computers.

Agreed .

Will the beta be required to overwrite an existing installation of DMB2 2.6, or can I place it in a separate directory?

Also, don't send it to the email in my profile, please send it to thunderbird@planetdescent.com instead.

[Diedel]

Thunderbird,

check your e-mail.

Jeff, Falcon:

I need you to agree to the agreement like Thunderbird did first.

Jeff, I'd also like to have a better e-mail address from you than a gmx account please.

Check my profile for an e-mail address you can send it to if you don't want to post it here, or use PM.

[Kyouryuu]

Alright, got it Diedel. Have no clue where the original e-mail went.

[Diedel]

Ok then. np.

[Diedel]

I've got one bug report so far ... one ... I wonder whether I should at least have every beta tester build a really cool 900 cube D2 single player mission ...

[Tyranny]

Gonna take some time, these people have lives you know ;P

[Kyouryuu]

Time is tight. I question if I'll have the time to get around to it.

Knowing what I currently do, though, I would really suggest that you bring back keyboard shortcuts for Cube, Side, Line, and Point modes. Unless I'm just oblivious to it, they aren't there anymore and are now governed by the setting at the top panel.

Some faces are really flickery. I don't know if it has to do with the way you are z-clipping or not. This especially happens with solid wall faces or faces that appear in front of other, close faces. The viewpoint, in general, works a lot smoother now, although it still has DMB2's forever goofy "fisheye" effect.

Hitting the "Apply" button on the settings down below threw me at first. "Why isn't what I'm doing having any effect?"

[Draco]

Agreement

• You will be granted the right to use the DLE-XP executable for non-profit, testing purposes.
• Bryan Aamot or I can recall this right w/o giving a reason any time we see fit. In that case, you will have to remove DLE-XP from all the storage media where you have stored it.
• You must not pass on DLE-XP, neither directly nor indirectly (e.g. by providing a download location and link for it) without Bryan's or my express permission.
• You agree to provide sufficiently detailed bug reports to me for bug fixing purposes, including all data used when encountering a bug.
• Any data (e.g. levels) provided by you together with bug reports will only be used by me for debugging DLE-XP and not be passed to others.
• You agree to naming me a valid e-mail address of yours (not a hotmail or similar 'anonymous' account) for getting access to full versions of the DLE-XP executable.
• Your e-mail address will only be used for communicating with you in the process of testing and debugging DLE-XP. It will not be passed to others. It will only be used by me in a firewall and virus protected environment to minimize the risk of it being abused by any harmful activity of third parties (e.g. hackers, viruses etc.) on my computers.

I agree. My profile has my E-mail address in it.

[SSX-Thunderbird]

I've got one bug report so far ... one ... I wonder whether I should at least have every beta tester build a really cool 900 cube D2 single player mission ...

I could probably build a 900 cube level. However, I do not think it would be cool .

[Diedel]

You haven't even agreed to the beta testers' DLE-XP terms of use, do you?

Btw, do you think 900 cubes wouldn't be cool, or a level you build wouldn't be cool?

[Diedel]

Time is tight. I question if I'll have the time to get around to it.

Knowing what I currently do, though, I would really suggest that you bring back keyboard shortcuts for Cube, Side, Line, and Point modes. Unless I'm just oblivious to it, they aren't there anymore and are now governed by the setting at the top panel.

Some faces are really flickery. I don't know if it has to do with the way you are z-clipping or not. This especially happens with solid wall faces or faces that appear in front of other, close faces. The viewpoint, in general, works a lot smoother now, although it still has DMB2's forever goofy "fisheye" effect.

Hitting the "Apply" button on the settings down below threw me at first. "Why isn't what I'm doing having any effect?"

I don't know of these shortcuts. I will take a look into DMB2 and see what I can do.

"Flickery faces"? Errrm ... huh?

"Fisheye effect": That should depend on the depth perception setting in the preferences dialog. Try setting it to "off".

"Apply" - what did you do that did not have an effect in the prefs dialog?

[Lothar]

I haven't yet created (or even attempted to create) a level because I've been busy, and because one of my hands is currently all bandaged up so I can't really do a lot on the computer (I can mostly type OK, but not for extended periods of time.)

[Draco]

I'm going to try to make a level sometime soon, but there seems to be a problem... I can't use my mouse to select the current cube. But anyways, onto a level.

[Diedel]

I haven't yet created (or even attempted to create) a level because I've been busy, and because one of my hands is currently all bandaged up so I can't really do a lot on the computer (I can mostly type OK, but not for extended periods of time.)

Gotta tell me what has happened when your hand is ok again.

[Tyranny]

Knowing what I currently do, though, I would really suggest that you bring back keyboard shortcuts for Cube, Side, Line, and Point modes. Unless I'm just oblivious to it, they aren't there anymore and are now governed by the setting at the top panel.

Diedel, he is refering to the shortcuts...

C = Cube (Selects and Cycles through cubes).
S = Side (Selects and Cycles through each side of a cube).
L = Line (Selects and Cycles through each Line on current side of a cube).
P = Point (Selects and Cycles through each point on current side of a cube).


These shortcuts work fine for me in the demo version of DLE-XP though, so I don't know what could be causing this for others in the beta version of DLE-XP.

One thing I've noticed about DLE-XP that is already becoming very annoying, just by tinkering with the demo, is the fact that now by using a tab layout instead of a window layout the process in which you can build a level has been slowed down. It may seem trivial but to me it is something that is a huge turn-off.

Personally, there should be an option to atleast have a "Classic" mode so DLE is setup like 2.6 was but has all the bug fixes and new features that 2.6 does not.

To me, this comes down to pure efficiency. If I didn't have to click on each tab to view its options, rather cycle through them with a shortcut key, it wouldn't be as much of a problem. This would make it even faster then doing it with the old Window display setup. Either way, we should have the option to atleast have it look the way 2.6 did or have the new look. Personal preference is a big deal

Also if you're going to be able to scroll through textures on the left you should atleast be able to use the mousewheel to scroll through it. Not a big deal sure, but still a more convenient way of searching through stuff. While we are talking about the texture selection, that whole thing should be hidden off screen until you need it. You don't need to texture your level until it is completed structurally. This also allows more window space to be used to view the level itself.

I know you've added in the ability to drag and minimize each section and it could be done for this, but it would be much simpler to add in a button on the side of the textures palette that closes it off screen when not used (Which should be the default) and then you can click this same button to re-open the palette as it is shown in this current version.

This probably isn't exactly what you wanted to hear. Not really bugs in the code so to speak, but tiny bugs in the appearance and functions can be important to people as well . I think what you've done already is a HUGE step in the right direction. Hopefully you'll think about it atleast. I feel these improvements would be a good addition to DLE-XP.

[Diedel]

Knowing what I currently do, though, I would really suggest that you bring back keyboard shortcuts for Cube, Side, Line, and Point modes. Unless I'm just oblivious to it, they aren't there anymore and are now governed by the setting at the top panel.

Diedel, he is refering to the shortcuts...

C = Cube (Selects and Cycles through cubes).
S = Side (Selects and Cycles through each side of a cube).
L = Line (Selects and Cycles through each Line on current side of a cube).
P = Point (Selects and Cycles through each point on current side of a cube).


These shortcuts work fine for me in the demo version of DLE-XP though, so I don't know what could be causing this for others in the beta version of DLE-XP.

I had removed these a while ago because select mode was switched deep in the editor engine and at times when it had not been appropriate. Maybe you have an old demo where they are still active. I have added them however to DLE-XP so that they only switch select mode when they should. Btw, every time I fix a bug and update the full DLE-XP exe, I also update the demo.

One thing I've noticed about DLE-XP that is already becoming very annoying, just by tinkering with the demo, is the fact that now by using a tab layout instead of a window layout the process in which you can build a level has been slowed down. It may seem trivial but to me it is something that is a huge turn-off.

Personally, there should be an option to atleast have a "Classic" mode so DLE is setup like 2.6 was but has all the bug fixes and new features that 2.6 does not.

To me, this comes down to pure efficiency. If I didn't have to click on each tab to view its options, rather cycle through them with a shortcut key, it wouldn't be as much of a problem. This would make it even faster then doing it with the old Window display setup. Either way, we should have the option to atleast have it look the way 2.6 did or have the new look. Personal preference is a big deal

Imo the new GUI is much more efficient than the old one. With the old GUI, I often had three to four dialogs open at time: texture edit, texture picker or texture alignment and light or wall dialog; additionally the illumination tool. It was very tedious to arrange them in a way still allowing me to work on the mine geometry or to select faces. Besides that, the already slow rendering became even slower due to part of the render window being hidden behind the dialogs.

The new layout allows you to reach each tool dialog with one mouse click. Some tools are linked together (e.g. the trigger list in the cube tool links to the trigger tool).

As a conclusion I do not share your point of view here at all. Imo the new layout allows for very efficient working. Maybe it's just a matter of getting used to it.

Finally it would be a considerable amount of work necessary to allow for the old (badly cluttered) UI style, as I would have to recreate all dialogs (dialog definitions in MSVC/MFC are pretty different from those used by DMB2 (Turbo C)). So there is no way I would ever add these.

Also if you're going to be able to scroll through textures on the left you should atleast be able to use the mousewheel to scroll through it. Not a big deal sure, but still a more convenient way of searching through stuff. While we are talking about the texture selection, that whole thing should be hidden off screen until you need it. You don't need to texture your level until it is completed structurally. This also allows more window space to be used to view the level itself.

I know you've added in the ability to drag and minimize each section and it could be done for this, but it would be much simpler to add in a button on the side of the textures palette that closes it off screen when not used (Which should be the default) and then you can click this same button to re-open the palette as it is shown in this current version.

If you look at the side ratio of the render pane in split screen mode you will notice that it is already too wide compared to fullscreen mode. To have the same ratio as in full screen mode, you could have an even wider texture pane. In other words: Hiding the texture pane will not give you that much more view space on your mine. I do not consider the texture pane being visible by default in split screen mode much of a backdraw therefore. If you just want to edit the geometry, you can switch to fullscreen mode very easily (and as you say, you only need the tools when the level structure is pretty much done ).

Btw, your not needing the texture picker until late in the level building process is your very personal approach to D1/D2 level building. I am having a completely different way to build a level: I build it in smaller chunks, applying and changing textures in between. Therefore, having texture and tool pane readily available very much speeds up my level building process. You see, this is a very personal thing.

This probably isn't exactly what you wanted to hear. Not really bugs in the code so to speak, but tiny bugs in the appearance and functions can be important to people as well . I think what you've done already is a HUGE step in the right direction. Hopefully you'll think about it atleast. I feel these improvements would be a good addition to DLE-XP.

Although I don't agree with you in every point, your input is indeed very much appreciated. You have thought about what you expect from DLE-XP and how it fulfills your expectancies or how it doesn't, and very precisely issued your thoughts here. That is very much appreciated, and a rather rare thing.

I will probably at least add a button to quickly hide/display the texture pane (I had planned this once, but dropped it because of the fullscreen mode being available anyway, and because of my above render pane size considerations).

Diedel

[Kyouryuu]

If you want DLE-XP without the tabbed interface, then why not just stick with DMB2? It's served you this long, hasn't it?

[Diedel]

Because of the speed and the bug fixes?

[Tyranny]

The last few years I've viewed DMB on a 18" monitor at either 1152x864 or 1280x1024. So clutter hasn't really been an issue with the Windows.

I've only ever needed to use about 3 windows until the completion of a level. You know, the big 3, None of them hardly ever open at the same time. The texture edit and align texture windows were probably open together the most out of the three I use, the third being the wall edit window.

The edit tool bar window never needed to be openned once you got the hang of DMB because the numberpad works exactly how this dialog would and much faster I might add.

I did mention though, that the tab layout would be extremely efficient compared to the previous Window method if there was a way to cycle through each tab without having to click on it all the time. As it stands right now though, there is not. I know there are only so many keys on the keyboard, but hotkeys used for this type of thing are crucial IMO.

Also, what about the mousewheel being utilized to scroll through the textures palette when its open?

Sol, I know you were joking but I want to further the development of this project and try to atleast help in making it the best it can be in my own way. Since I haven't agreed to be a beta tester yet I felt that I could atleast voice my opinions on what there is already and how to potentially make it better.

[Diedel]

Mouse wheel: Have to look into this.

Cycle tabs key: Feasible.

I am using 19" monitors @ 1152x864, and I just *hate* the render window being cluttered by dialogs.

[Tyranny]

Agreement

• You will be granted the right to use the DLE-XP executable for non-profit, testing purposes.
• Bryan Aamot or I can recall this right w/o giving a reason any time we see fit. In that case, you will have to remove DLE-XP from all the storage media where you have stored it.
• You must not pass on DLE-XP, neither directly nor indirectly (e.g. by providing a download location and link for it) without Bryan's or my express permission.
• You agree to provide sufficiently detailed bug reports to me for bug fixing purposes, including all data used when encountering a bug.
• Any data (e.g. levels) provided by you together with bug reports will only be used by me for debugging DLE-XP and not be passed to others.
• You agree to naming me a valid e-mail address of yours (not a hotmail or similar 'anonymous' account) for getting access to full versions of the DLE-XP executable.
• Your e-mail address will only be used for communicating with you in the process of testing and debugging DLE-XP. It will not be passed to others. It will only be used by me in a firewall and virus protected environment to minimize the risk of it being abused by any harmful activity of third parties (e.g. hackers, viruses etc.) on my computers.

What the hell...I agree. E-mail is in my profile. As long as I started working on a new level and I'm giving my input I should be doing this anyways.

Also, I forgot to mention with the cube shortcuts there was...

B = Block (Lets you select a group of cubes to edit simultaneously) I see this is missing in the latest version of the demo.

For the split screen and fullscreen modes I noticed once you hit F11 to go to fullscreen and you drag the tabs menu up it thinks you reverted back to split screen, which I guess technically you have, and doesn't bring the textures palette back out when you hit F11 again. It just minimizes the tab menu out of view. I was kind of expecting the textures palette to just come out again. Your call on what to do with this though

On another note, shading should be off by default. Everytime I close and re-open DLE-XP and then open a new level shading is on by default which since the level isn't lit, let alone complete it is kind of pointless IMO. Of course, I must admit that this might be because I have the demo version and it just isn't saving my custom settings per-use of the application. If so, just ignore me, lol.

[Diedel]

On another note, shading should be off by default. Everytime I close and re-open DLE-XP and then open a new level shading is on by default which since the level isn't lit, let alone complete it is kind of pointless IMO. Of course, I must admit that this might be because I have the demo version and it just isn't saving my custom settings per-use of the application. If so, just ignore me, lol.

LOL!

Shadows in the night ...

I had thought of this already, too.

DLE-XP doesn't currently save any visibility settings.

Btw, mouse wheel handling is implemented, I will upload it in a while (mouse in mine view: zoom, mouse in texture view: scroll).

Tab cycling will be added next.

"B" key for block mode too.

Re reverting from full screen mode: If you drag the texture or tool view open, it's not full screen any more, so pressing F11 will turn on full screen mode again. Just press it twice.

[Diedel]

Well ... tab cycling doesn't work because of focus issues.

But I have added an alternative UI layout (not what Tyranny proposed). Set it in the prefs dialog, and restart DLE-XP to see it.

[KoolBear]

Diedel,

will you need a closed forum to discuss the beta test cycle? I could set you one up on koolbear.com

[SSX-Thunderbird]

I think the only difference between the beta and the demo are that the demo won't save levels. Otherwise they are the same. Diedel can correct me though .

[Diedel]

Thunderbird,

you are correct - almost. The demo also does not save block files (as with the extended block file format you could easily circumvent not being able to save levels).

[Diedel]

Diedel,

will you need a closed forum to discuss the beta test cycle? I could set you one up on koolbear.com

Thanks for the offer, but for the time being I think this here will do.

[Tyranny]

KB, did you ever get my PM ?

aaah, much better with tools on the left, thx Diedel.

Now whats this about not being able to cycle through the tabs with hotkeys because of focus issues?

Bug Report: When you go to set the rotate rate on the preferences tab it won't select anything other then 3.125. Also when you select a different depth perception and apply it, it doesn't keep the setting when the program is restarted.

[Diedel]

Re: layout

The alternative layout leaves much less space for the mine view, did you notice?

Re: cycling through tabs

If you press the key I have assigned to the tab cycle function, the tool dialog that gets activated gets the input focus and will not process further cycle tab keys, no matter what message handlers I add (the tool property pages have a common base class where I added a message handler for that key, but that doesn't work). Doh. Any idea how to fix this?

Re: rotate rate

That's because that's the best setting. LOL. Will be fixed. The other one too.